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Bunnylady

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We all know how heartbreaking a Lethal White foal is. We keep preaching about how important it is to know the LWO status of any animal kept for breeding purposes. It is a bit of a headache to have to work around, so I can't help but wonder, why would anybody want a Frame Overo?

I'm not trying to provoke an arguement, I really don't understand. There are so many other Paint patterns, why put up with the hassles associated with this one? In so many cases, you really can't see whether it's Frame or something else producing the pattern. It seems to me, that people would be thrilled to hear that a horse was LWO-! I mean, that's one less thing that you have to worry about.


I've heard that some people in the QH world are getting so jittery about HYPP, they are beginning to shy away from any animal that tests positive for the gene. Do you think that is ever likely to happen with LWO?
 

Tapestry Minis

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To me it is worth a little bit of hassle to have the possibility of getting a beautiful pattern. True color is not everything but if you know our small herd I feel we've done the research to find the best we can to have the best of all worlds, confirmation, pedigree, and color. This is my Paint horse Sawyer. He is a full frame overo gelding. It's hard to see in this photo but his brown goes all the way down his neck down his back his tail is brown and if you look at his belly it goes all the way down his belly and back up his neck. Like someone took two sponges and pressed his sides with white paint. He even has brown eyes.

 

rabbitsfizz

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There is absolutely NO problem with Frame.

It is when you get people thinking it is worth the risk of breeding Frame to Frame that you get a problem, and only then.

There is no reason to do this, none whatsoever as the percentage of loudly marked foals does not go up.

So I have NO idea at all why people do it.

I have always loved this pattern and would have no problem with adding it to my herd- I hope to fairly soon.

Of course that means testing the Stallions I would use and making sure no Frame X Frame is done.

Then everything is safe and the beautiful pattern can express without danger.
 

SBrown

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This is Cross Country Call Me Awesome, a frame overo LWO positive. This is why many breed for the overo pattern, it is beautiful. You just have to be knowledgable about the mare or stallion you breed a LWO positive horse to.





 

Lucky-C-Acres-Minis

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Frame overo, IMO, is the prettiest pinto pattern, would love to someday have a loud bay frame overo... In all honesty the LWO isn't a "hassle" if you are responsible, takes a whole 5 minutes to pull the hair, $25.00 and a week or two to get results, simple as that, but the key word there is "responsible", testing your breeding stock and making the right crosses..

Unfortunately there are breeders out there willing to risk that 25% chance of a lethal foal in order to get that loud baby, when you can breed a + to a - and still have that same percentage of a loud baby as you do breeding two positives without the risk of a lethal ( + to + you get a 25% chance of n/n, 25% of O/O and 50% chance of n/O while a + to - breeding can result in a 50% n/n and a 50% n/O)

IMO, HYPP is a much worse genetic disorder than LWO in terms of overall well-being/health of the horse in terms of the living, (because of course a homozygous LWO horse dies shortly after birth while a homozygous HYPP horse can live a 'full' life, but once again this boils down to responsible breeding) LWO carriers are just that, carriers that may or may not express some form of the frame overo coat pattern, no adverse effect on their health and when dealt with responsibly in the breeding shed can produce some pretty paint foals.. Now HYPP can/does affect the horses' overall well being, can cause muscle twitching, unpredictable paralysis attacks which can lead to sudden death, and respiratory 'noises'. Severity of attacks varies from unnoticeable to collapse or sudden death (usually from respiratory failure and/or cardiac arrest) and those horses that are positive for HYPP are put on strict diets.. Again, a responsible breeder will pull the hairs, spend the $30 to test before sticking that horse into the breeding program..

Like the LWO issue, there are some breeders of the horses affected by HYPP that do the crosses in order to gain the heavy muscling that seems to be "in" with the halter stock breeds.. Fortunately, AQHA/APHA etc are taking measures to aid in wiping out HYPP and are now stating it is an "undesirable trait", must be disclosed on their registry papers, and any foals as of 2007 and after that test H/H are NOT eligible for registry!
Which will hopefully promote more responsible breeding and eliminate the H/H horses..
 

Joanne

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Like all colors and patterns you either like them or not.

I LOVE the frame pattern and dream of having foals with that pattern. But would not risk breeding Frame to Frame to achieve that goal.

Here is one from this year: Pacific Painted Fancy



And a two year old stallion Pacific Celebrity !

 
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targetsmom

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I happen to adore Cross Country Call Me Awesome and am proud to own one of his LWO+ daughters. As I told my husband when we bought her and had her tested ourselves - it didn't matter to me how the test came out, the important thing was just to have the test done. All we had to do was make sure any pinto stallion we bought was LWO negative, which of course he is. Our mare also happens to be gray, which she inherited from her Blue Boy bred dam, but that doesn't bother me either. Now we can dream that the two of them might produce a colorful (and gorgeous) frame overo (or tovero) foal who would have Buckeroo, Rowdy, and Blue Boy breeding.
 

Mona

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The frame pinto pattern is GORGEOUS! I love the pattern and that is why I own a LWO+ mare! It really is NOT a hastle...it's a simple, easy to do DNA test done on pulled mane hairs. That takes the problems out of breeding them, as long as you don't breed 2 LWO+ together. Even at that, some people will and do breed them together, and for the life of me, I don't understand why you would chance losing a foal when it really does not offer a higher chance of getting the pattern show up in your foal.
 
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Ashley

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I have two frame mares. I wouldnt give them up for anything. NO hassel to me.
 

Bunnylady

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The horses in the pictures y'all have posted certainly make the point, they are beautiful! Of course, I try to make a point of not getting too caught up in the eye candy (a horse of any other color still won't smell like a rose!)


Some time ago, I heard that it is illegal in Germany to do any breeding that could result in the death or lifelong suffering of the offspring, as a result of its genetic makeup. I don't know how to verify this, perhaps some of our European members can say whether this is true. If so, then breed Frame to Frame in Germany, not only could you get a dead foal, you could also get a fine! A little extreme, IMO, I wonder how they deal with the dwarf issue?

I agree, when you consider the amount of time and money one spends when dealing with horses, the investment in LWO testing is miniscule. And, as I'm not breeding horses, (maybe someday, who knows?) this is all hypothetical to me. But I keep imagining having what seems like the perfect cross, only not doing it because they are both LWO+! Or having to pass on a real stunner, because it's LWO+, and the animal(s) that I'd breed it to is/are LWO+, as well.

While we're talking hypothetical situations, you do realize, that the more you breed animals carrying a certain gene, the more common that gene becomes in the population? Within a surprisingly few generations, it may become hard to find LWO- animals!
 

Ashley

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There are plenty and always will be plenty of non LWO horses. Just cause a horse is LWO doesnt mean all their offspring will be. I currently have pushing 20 horses at my house. Two of them are LWO(not tested, but are visual frames).

Breed wisely you wont get foals that die.
 

Mona

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While we're talking hypothetical situations, you do realize, that the more you breed animals carrying a certain gene, the more common that gene becomes in the population? Within a surprisingly few generations, it may become hard to find LWO- animals!
I don't believe this to be an accurate statement. Sure, breeding more LWO+ WILL result in more LWO+ horses, but there is only a 50% chance the resulting foal will carry it. The only way it would really impact the breed would be to have many, many, many horses carrying it, and I believe it would take many, many years/generations. Now if you were breeding the homozygous ones, which would give you 100%, then far more would be produced. BUT, since LWO in it's homozygous state is the lethal form, we never have to worry about that happening.
 
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rabbitsfizz

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If the ruling you are talking about is brought in (so far it keeps failing...it is a EU ruling, across the board they are trying for, I do nor know if Germany brought in a single country ruling I will try to find out) but IF it were to come in it would also prevent the breeding of Frame and the breeding of Merle (dogs) and this is why it has failed.

Merle and LWO are similar in that they are harmless in h/Z and lethal (partially in dogs ...pups without eyes!!) in H/Z.

The EU Animal Welfare Bill is attempting to prevent the breeding of animals with what they euphemistically referred to as "defective" genes.

Which will not float, I am glad to say!!

Basically, under the Animal Welfare Bill passed last year it would be theoretically possible to take legal action against someone who knowingly breeds two LWO carriers together, whether or not the resultant foal was Lethal.

It is not yet an issue here as there are so few LWO carriers in Europe, but the problem is that you cannot take legal action against someone for being ignorant, when there is no legal precedent, if only you could we would not have the government we do, and maybe you would not either ( :DOH!
:DOH!
-Oh I am so sorry I could not resist that!!!)

So ignorance of the law is no excuse, but when there is no law, it is a very good one, it seems.

You would have to prove that the person knew they were doing something that could result in the suffering of an animal, and that the mating was not accidental...so the person that came on a Forum that shall not be named and told me, in all seriousness, that I obviously did not know anything about breeding Pintos as this was an acceptable risk, as fa as she was concerned, in order to get a "loud colored foal" (now who is showing their ignorance??) could be prosecuted under European Law as she showed quite clearly that she knew there was a risk, and she took it deliberately, but Joe- down- the - road, who's mare got in foal to his stallion and had a Lethal White foal, he could not be prosecuted as he was ignorant of the facts and the breeding was not intended.

So, however well intentioned the law, it could be evaded by not pattern testing the animals.
 

Mona

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WOW Jane, I would hope that somthing like that never passes if it means people could not even breed LWO+ horses...PERIOD! I can see not breeding them together, but there is testing available that can easily prevent the birth of lethal white foals.
 

rabbitsfizz

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I agree completely...it is "PC" gone crazy, but, unfortunately that is what happens when you try to make laws that cover absolutely every possibility.

This is how we ended up with legislation that makes it illegal to smack your own child, but still have loopholes in the Child Protection Laws that allow people to leave children to starve to death in cupboards (sorry to drag that mental image into this but it still, after over ten years, haunts me. I think it is right that it should)
 

MountainViewMiniatures

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Hi!

Having owned,bred,raised and trained AQHA horses for almost 30 years now (and havings actually met Impressive and being around when the entire HYPP started) I can tell you that there is no comparison of LWO to HYPP. A horse that is positive for LWO is only a carrier and does not have the the fatal condition that a homozygote LWO has. The LWO carrier is not affected in any manner and , as long as the LWO carrier is not bred to another LWO carrier no harm, no foul will come to the offspring - it is imperative though that your stallion is tested negative (or your mare if the stallion is untested)- point being one of the breeding pair must be tested as LWO negative. The correct thing to do is test both mare and stallion regardless of breed or color (I have had an AQHA solid color mare no white markings test positive for LWO) as the LWO may not be apparent in the phenotype *what you visibly see when looking at your horse) of the horse. The frame pattern is a beautiful and unique pattern and there is no reason to stop breeding for it as long as it is done responsibly (testing,testing,testing!!)

HYPP is a different matter totally - if the horse tests positive the horse will have the disease regardless if the horse is HYPP homozygous (1 allele from each parent) or heterozygous ( only 1 allele from either sire or dam). It is a dreadful disease. The horse may appear not to be affected and them BAM have an epsiode. The horse may never have an obvious problem but will produce foals that have the disease either 100 or 50% of the time, Even though I have never (and will never) own a positive HYPP, I have witnessed HYPP attacks-even once while the horse was carrying a 10 yr old rider who broke his arm and ribs when the horse collapsed and died. Unfortunately, the AQHA Association never stepped up to the plate until a few years ago to help eliminate this from the AQHAs leaving it up to the breeders to act responsibly. THe urge to win at any cost ( many halter breeders insisted erroneously the only way to win halter classes was to have a hypp horse)Greed , of course, allowed this disease to spread not only to tens of thousands of AQHA but the APHA, Appaloosa, PInto and grade horses and has become a widespread problem. Eventually (20 year plan in place) this disease will be eliminated from registered AQHA but there will still be many many affected horses still out there. This disease traces back to one awesome horse, Impressive and I do own n/n grandaughters by him that are awesome horses. It is not Impressive's fault - the blame lays squarely on the breeder's shoulders and should not detract from Impressive in any manner. Once the test was developed (probably 20 years now) all Impressive bred horses should have been tested and eliminated from the gene pool- it is also a shame that it took the association so long to step up to the plate.

Off my soapbox now (sorry for rambling, grammar or spelling errors as I did not reread)
 

MountainViewMiniatures

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I happen to adore Cross Country Call Me Awesome and am proud to own one of his LWO+ daughters. As I told my husband when we bought her and had her tested ourselves - it didn't matter to me how the test came out, the important thing was just to have the test done. All we had to do was make sure any pinto stallion we bought was LWO negative, which of course he is. Our mare also happens to be gray, which she inherited from her Blue Boy bred dam, but that doesn't bother me either. Now we can dream that the two of them might produce a colorful (and gorgeous) frame overo (or tovero) foal who would have Buckeroo, Rowdy, and Blue Boy breeding.
Hello!

Would that have been Mira? I drooled over her she was such a beauty(and I'm sure still is!) and I sure wanted to buy her from Elaine! I have bought 2 mares from Elaine in the past- one is a beautiful black and white pinto who was bred to AWesome and had a stunning black and white colt stillborn early.
I have to peek at your site and take a look at her now!
 

MountainViewMiniatures

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I happen to adore Cross Country Call Me Awesome and am proud to own one of his LWO+ daughters. As I told my husband when we bought her and had her tested ourselves - it didn't matter to me how the test came out, the important thing was just to have the test done. All we had to do was make sure any pinto stallion we bought was LWO negative, which of course he is. Our mare also happens to be gray, which she inherited from her Blue Boy bred dam, but that doesn't bother me either. Now we can dream that the two of them might produce a colorful (and gorgeous) frame overo (or tovero) foal who would have Buckeroo, Rowdy, and Blue Boy breeding.
Oh yes !she is as beautiful as ever
! I am from CT too and was going to attend Mike McCabe's clinic but had an accident on my way there (wasn't hurt but can't say the same for the car!)
 

MountainViewMiniatures

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If the ruling you are talking about is brought in (so far it keeps failing...it is a EU ruling, across the board they are trying for, I do nor know if Germany brought in a single country ruling I will try to find out) but IF it were to come in it would also prevent the breeding of Frame and the breeding of Merle (dogs) and this is why it has failed.Merle and LWO are similar in that they are harmless in h/Z and lethal (partially in dogs ...pups without eyes!!) in H/Z.

The EU Animal Welfare Bill is attempting to prevent the breeding of animals with what they euphemistically referred to as "defective" genes.

Which will not float, I am glad to say!!

Basically, under the Animal Welfare Bill passed last year it would be theoretically possible to take legal action against someone who knowingly breeds two LWO carriers together, whether or not the resultant foal was Lethal.

It is not yet an issue here as there are so few LWO carriers in Europe, but the problem is that you cannot take legal action against someone for being ignorant, when there is no legal precedent, if only you could we would not have the government we do, and maybe you would not either ( :DOH!
:DOH!
-Oh I am so sorry I could not resist that!!!)

So ignorance of the law is no excuse, but when there is no law, it is a very good one, it seems.

You would have to prove that the person knew they were doing something that could result in the suffering of an animal, and that the mating was not accidental...so the person that came on a Forum that shall not be named and told me, in all seriousness, that I obviously did not know anything about breeding Pintos as this was an acceptable risk, as fa as she was concerned, in order to get a "loud colored foal" (now who is showing their ignorance??) could be prosecuted under European Law as she showed quite clearly that she knew there was a risk, and she took it deliberately, but Joe- down- the - road, who's mare got in foal to his stallion and had a Lethal White foal, he could not be prosecuted as he was ignorant of the facts and the breeding was not intended.

So, however well intentioned the law, it could be evaded by not pattern testing the animals.
OH MY GOD that someone would knowingly take that risk! Obviously she does not know anything about genetics or pinto breeding - and the risk isn't to her at all but some poor innocent foal!
 

targetsmom

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Yes, Sharon, that would be Mira!! Isn't this forum amazing?? You will have to come visit her sometime. Interestingly, we just this hour bred her to our stallion SRF Buckshot (LWO negative!!) in hopes of a frame overo foal (or any live, healthy foal in our case). Keep your fingers crossed.

Mary
 

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