What makes a Tobiano?

[chandab]

I'm still not convinced that Tobiano's can't have "normal" facial markings like star/strip/snip. There are multiple solid horses that have no Pinto in their breeding that have facial markings. It seems if what rabbitfizz and songcatcher are saying is really true than most horses must carry sabino or other overo color patterns.....and I just don't think it's true. I think it will be interesting to see as our color genetics become more defined and testing more prevalent what comes of this. :bgrin

Believe or don't believe, but here's a link to a website for upto date information on color and color patterns.

http://www.equinecolor.com/

They describe the base colors, their modifiers and the "white patterns".

 

[rabbitsfizz]

QUOTE(sedeh @ Feb 18 2007, 04:41 PM)

I'm still not convinced that Tobianos can't have "normal" facial markings like star/strip/snip. There are multiple solid horses that have no Pinto in their breeding that have facial markings. It seems if what rabbits and songcatcher are saying is really true than most horses must carry sabino or other overo color patterns.....and I just don't think it's true. I think it will be interesting to see as our color genetics become more defined and testing more prevalent what comes of this.

You are not alone, but it is the most generally held view- not only that Tobianos- but that NO horse has "normal" white markings- hence, as I said, the sudden appearance of Pinto Arabs and Tbs.

 

[Latika]

This is my Tobiano, as far as I can tell and have read, he is typical tobiano markings, & solid head. Sire is Blue Roan, dam is Buckskin Pinto, am guessin she is Tobiano, though have no pics of her that show it clearly.

YP Major Flashbacks Sabaar

I also thought that Tobiano's could have normal face markings, seeing as breeds that carry no broken colour genes are able to have stars, snips, blazes etc. for eg. purebred arabians. The only pinto arabians are not pure, except for those who have splash or sabino, and have enough to be reg as pinto but rarely pass on the markings to offspring (from what I have been told).

 

[Lewella]

Like the other patterns Tobiano has various levels of expression. A horse that is tobiano alone can have 4 completely white legs without assistance from any other pattern. There are tested minimal tobianos with as little leg white as two rear cornets. Minis are one of the few breeds capable of restricting tobiano expression to the point of causing a tobiano to have solid legs. (American and UK Shetlands are also both capable of this but it is a rarity in big horse breeds).

Tobiano alone will have crisp edged markings. Many tobianos are also sabino even if they do not show sabino face white.

Just because an article online (based of APHA's descriptions of pattern which are totally inaccurate) says a tobiano can have face white doesn't mean that the tobiano pattern genetically causes face white. Tobiano does not cause face white. Face white on a tobiano indicated the presence of one of the other pinto patterns - most often the culprit is sabino.

For those who don't believe that "normal" face white is the result of sabino need only look at some Sb1 tested Tennessee Walking Horses to see that sabino is indeed the cause of many "normal" markings. Also go take a peak at some of the Maximum White Sabino Thoroughbreds and their parents and produce. Most sabinos with "normal marking" level expression are only going to produce that level but crossed to the right mate that normal expression can explode into pinto level expression - ie Crop Out pintos.

For those that are confused by this or having trouble accepting it take a step back and throw the term "overo" from your brain because it really is a meaningless term genetically. It is a blanket term for three patterns - Splash, Frame and Sabino. Pinto level expression for all of these patterns is the exception, not the rule. Frame can't create pinto level expression without help from one of the other patterns, Splash needs to be homozygous to create pinto level expression, sabino is a complex that require in most cases several gene pairs to line up right to create pinto level expression (the exception being Sb1 which when homozygous creates maximum white expression with no assistance but this is rare in miniatures).

As others have recommended - http://www.equinecolor.com is a great site. http://www.horsecolor.com is another very good site.

 

[CheyAut]

This is Tracker...

Ruby has sabino in her (roaning and face white ect) but still, she exhibits nice tobiano pattern so thought I'd show her...

Jessi

 

[Sandee]

I was so confused when I first got into pintos and I'm not sure that even after taking a class in genetics for breeders that I understand much more. This thread is certainly interesting. Here's my boy that is evidently tobiano even though the white does not cross his back but only a tiny thin area in his mane.

My filly must have a more than toby in her even though I thought she was tobiano so I'll post her elsewhere.

 

[capall beag]

Here are my 2,

I have been told both have the sabino pattern too but I don't know if that is so!

First

Dimunitives Theraly Over the Moon(with a woeful clip job).........I did fix it afterwards

aka Miss Kitty

Second is my stallion

Garners Freedom of Boogerman

 

[Lewella]

White always crossing the back/topline on tobianos is one of many color Myths. Many, many tobianos do not have white over their topline. Many homozygous tobianos do not have white over their topline.

Shape and placement of white are both indicators of pattern. It can take years of study to be able to pick up the little nuances.

 

[sedeh]

I'm still not convinced that Tobiano's can't have "normal" facial markings like star/strip/snip. There are multiple solid horses that have no Pinto in their breeding that have facial markings. It seems if what rabbitfizz and songcatcher are saying is really true than most horses must carry sabino or other overo color patterns.....and I just don't think it's true. I think it will be interesting to see as our color genetics become more defined and testing more prevalent what comes of this. :bgrin

Believe or don't believe, but here's a link to a website for upto date information on color and color patterns.

http://www.equinecolor.com/

They describe the base colors, their modifiers and the "white patterns".

Thanks for the link! Has been a good read.....color patterns have always been a weak point for me. Still trying to make sense of it all.. :bgrin

 

[EAD Minis]

Hears One Ritz-C-Kid. I always thought he was a red roan pinto but others have corrected me and said he is a Tobiano. I love him and think he is just gorgeous any ways. Hear he is

:

Other side:

 

[Songcatcher]

Hears One Ritz-C-Kid. I always thought he was a red roan pinto but others have corrected me and said he is a Tobiano.

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: He is a Red Roan. Red is a color. Roan is a pattern. He is a Pinto. That is a pattern. He appears to have both the Tobiano pattern and the Sabino pattern. BOTH are PINTO patterns.

: Horses are not limited to just one pattern.

 

[Ashley]

HE isnt a roan...........he is sabino makeing him look like a roan.

 

[Songcatcher]

HE isnt a roan...........he is sabino makeing him look like a roan.

The Sabino is quite obvious, but I don't know why you say he isn't Roan. His head APPEARS to be much darker/solid than the rest of his body which is Roan. Maybe you are seeing something I am not.

 

[Ashley]

On my screen his head dosent appear to be any darker then other areas of his body that are not affected by the sabino.......like neck, certian areas on his legs.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Since we have seen lots of pictures of this gelding now I have to say I agree with Ashley- this horse is a Red Tobiano+ Sabino - I do not think he is a Roan either, I never have.

 

[Songcatcher]

OK, I am perfectly willing to concede that he may not be Roan. Some know/have seen more of this horse than I. However, that was not my main point. Let's leave Roan out of the equation.

I always thought he was a red roan pinto but others have corrected me and said he is a Tobiano.

Being a Red Pinto does not mean he is not a Tobiano (although he obviously has other genes at work as well). Tobianos are Pintos. That was my point.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I had not realised that was in question- surely that point is understood??

Am I missing something.

 

[Mona]

When she said she was calling him a red pinto, and someone "corrected" her telling her he was in fact a red tobiano, I am assuming she is referring to them "expanding" on the pinto pattern. Regardless...there is no reason to get all huffy about it...we all have to start our color/pattern learning experience somewhere.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Right, but he is a Red Pinto, that is perfectly acceptable, - it is the pattern that is Tobiano + Sabino, so we are all arguing at cross purposes.

Nothing new there, then!!

 

[Mona]

Right, but he is a Red Pinto, that is perfectly acceptable

Yes, I agree, but I think this young gal thought she was saying something wrong, because when she said red pinto, she had been "corrected" by someone else, saying he was tobiano, also correct, but expanding more on the patterns. LOL! Also, I am not argueing, I am just trying to explain what I felt this gal was asking, or trying to ask in regards to her horse, his pattern, and what she had been told about it.

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