terrific colour site

[MiLo Minis]

"when breeding for chrome" - yes but when breeding 2 horses with nothing but a white facial marking, if it is considered to be Sabino and you consider that to be pinto, one would expect you could breed 2 horses together and achieve high white pinto on a fairly regular basis. Never seen or heard of that myself. I think the leg markings and the face markings can be separate and only have a tendency to be linked to another gene such as sabino or overo.

"Sponnenbergs own theories contradict each other depending on which book edition you are reading"

Hence the reason they are so much fun to discuss - 'cause even the "experts" don't know for sure what is fact or theory. Definitely a subject worthy of debate!

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[rabbitsfizz]

When you breed two horses with high white etc you do indeed run the risk of Pinto- which is exactly why it was avoided so carefully in Arabs and Welsh. A lot of Pintos were in fact registered as Chestnut with white stockings. (As opposed to Chestnut Pinto, which would not have been acceptable!!)

Sorry but I'll stick to what I know, as I have said - Tobiano , alone, is not accepted to have face white, the presence of face white is generally accepted to indicate the presence of another pattern.

Sabino and Splash can and does cause the leg and face white that is called "normal" face and leg markings- hence the supposed "outcrop" Pintos in Arabs. TBs, QH's etc etc etc.

It is actually a little more than guesswork.

If you go here

http://www.equinecolor.com/contact.html

it will be explained.

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[Songcatcher]

My feeling is that white facial markings are caused by a separate gene or marker and are available to all horses but that over centuries of natural selection dating from a time when white in the herd would heighten visibility to predators and of course helped along by man when he came on the scene has become linked to certain other genes that increase the white factor. We all know that the herd, just like we lovely humans, can be somewhat discriminatory towards horses of certain colours and display a natural tendency to associate with other herd members of like colour. I think that over the centuries this has resulted in certain breeds that display a prepondancy of a certain colour such as grey or white or black or whatever. The horses that were ostrasized tended likely to congregate together and breed together.

This THEORY sounds good, except that the American Mustang blows it all to pieces. It is possibly the most multi colored breed in existence, even before the introduction of different bloodlines by the government.

Sabino is not necessarily a "high white" pinto coloration. It seems to me that they are more often minimally expressed than maximum expressions. The "high white" Sabinos seem to be relatively rare from my experience.

As stated several times before, Tobiano does not prevent face white, it simply does not cause it.

 

[runamuk]

"when breeding for chrome" - yes but when breeding 2 horses with nothing but a white facial marking, if it is considered to be Sabino and you consider that to be pinto, one would expect you could breed 2 horses together and achieve high white pinto on a fairly regular basis. Never seen or heard of that myself. I think the leg markings and the face markings can be separate and only have a tendency to be linked to another gene such as sabino or overo.

except the same can happen with tested horses who are proven pinto but only have say a star...breed two together over and over and never get a pinto

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The other issue is it isn't just genes for the color then there are the on off switches as well....that determine how that pattern is expressed or not expressed.......so say a horse gets the pinto gene but only exhibits a small star....and you breed it to another say loud pinto and get a solid....now you have what everyone see's as a solid with just for fun 6 white hairs between the eyes...but this horse may have all the "other" neccesary on switches to produce super loud pinto...so this almost not a pinto bred to a horse with a star suddenly have a very loud pinto foal......

I know of a mare who for all intents and purposes was solid black 4-5 white hairs between the eyes...no matter what she was bred to the foal would come out with chrome and once it was a very loud pinto when she was bred to a very minimal tobiano..............

currently there are some studies being done on the link between pinto patterns and a couple specific appaloosa patterns......entire herds are involved and dna is being taken and tested.......appaloosa purists have a fit at the mention...but there are a couple very specific patterns that seem to follow some of the pinto guidelines for expression....this was actually a theory I developed long ago but could never substantiate I cannot wait to see the findings when it is done.....

 

[MiLo Minis]

I went to that colour site and read another person's theory on colour. I didn't see anywhere that is said they had PROVED their theories only that they are generally excepted by SOME people. Granted it has some viable theories that may or may not someday be proved to be true.

I agree - tobiano seems to neither prevent nor cause face white. And I think that is true for all the colours except for overo types that seem to be linked to it somehow and therefore have a tendency to display it.

I think if the mustangs were allowed free choice and free range as in past history we might see how it happens. They are prevented from free choice by todays civilization.

This is fun and I'm learning a lot!!! :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

 

[Songcatcher]

After reading a PM from a very dear friend and knowledgable person, I went back and re-read my post and I have decided that what I said is not exactly what I meant.

When I used the term "high white" I was referring to the percentage of white on the body, not the height of the white stockings as I am now aware some have interpreted it. Probably the person who posted using the term earlier was referring to the height of the socks or stockings and not the percentage of body white. I think I mis-interpreted their usage and in turn used the term wrong myself.

I would totally agree that Sabinos typically produce "high white" stockings and often have white reaching up on their bodies, but the majority of the Sabinos I have seen do not have a "high percentage" of white on their bodies (unless of course combined with another gene). Of course, there are that small percentage that come almost totally white which I think are commonly accepted to be homozygous for Sabino.

Did I clarify that or make it worse???

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I think it might help if we were to use the term "White Marking Genes" rather than "Pinto", as I read someone somewhere suggest. What is considered as Pinto in one breed or country may or may not be accepted as Pinto in another breed or country.

 

[MiLo Minis]

That is part of the problem when discussing colours isn't it! Not everyone refers to the same colour with the same name - makes it tough at times to distinguish.

When I said earlier, high white, I did mean lots of white on the overall body not just stockings. I have never seen 2 horses with ONLY white facial markings from any breed other then a pinto breed produce a horse with LOTS of white on its body not just a sock and a star or whatever. Now I know pinto is not a breed but a colour but it is only found in certain breeds not ALL of them. I would NOT consider a Thorobred with a white facial marking and white on its legs to be a pinto although I would guess that some of you would judging by your definitions of pinto.

 

[runamuk]

That is part of the problem when discussing colours isn't it! Not everyone refers to the same colour with the same name - makes it tough at times to distinguish.

When I said earlier, high white, I did mean lots of white on the overall body not just stockings. I have never seen 2 horses with ONLY white facial markings from any breed other then a pinto breed produce a horse with LOTS of white on its body not just a sock and a star or whatever. Now I know pinto is not a breed but a colour but it is only found in certain breeds not ALL of them. I would NOT consider a Thorobred with a white facial marking and white on its legs to be a pinto although I would guess that some of you would judging by your definitions of pinto.

A thoroughbred or arab if it carried tobiano could easily test positive as a pinto with as little as a couple white hairs on the face and one high white stocking......the issue is these breeds typically aren't tobiano but sabino or rabicano which as of yet don't have tests.

There are horses that the only white they have is a bald face yet test positive for lwo..so that solid horse is technically a pinto in fact not theory.....

There are a number of miniature stallions who have one high white sock and a couple normal socks who test positive for tobiano..there again they are in fact pinto.......

pinto to me means any of the white patterns that are not appaloosa :bgrin

I am not affiliated or advocating or otherwise...here is a link to a page of PUREBRED arabians that are pinto.......it is a matter of selection.....choosing for or against colors is one of the easiest things in horses and often only takes a couple generations if the genes are there

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pinto arabians

 

[MiLo Minis]

Thanks runamuk!!! I found a very interesting article on sabino through that site!!! http://www.indiandogs.com/horse%20article%203.htm

It sort of helps me to understand the ideas behind the theories and makes me think that sabino is the gene behind the facial white and is separate from the pinto genes but connected to them. VERY interesting reading! :bgrin

 

[Becky]

I'll give an example of what two minmally marked sabinos can produce.

This mare is Redrock Little Blossom. Bald face, two hind socks. Small belly spot. Not tobiano.

She was bred to Redrock Incognito in 2004. Bald face, two hind stockings. Non tobiano.

In 2005, they produced Redrock Crocus Blossom, solid white, pink skinned, blue eyed filly. Interestingly enough, she is lab tested black!

 

[sam_loves_minis]

Thanks i really enjoyed reading that page!

 

[MiLo Minis]

Thanks Becky! She is a very pretty little filly. Now have you been over every inch and she has NO black on her? Anywhere? She would be a maximum sabino then? OR just a white horse? Bet you were stunned and maybe terrified when she came out?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Good example of a maximum Sabino + possible Splash??

No chance of LWO as it only affect Frame, so no real worries when a white foal is born.

It was only at the beginning when there were no tests for LWO that a white foal would be a worry.

I think Freeland and I did mention, a few times, that Sabino cause "normal" white on horses, did we not??

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[MiLo Minis]

Good example of a maximum Sabino + possible Splash??

No chance of LWO as it only affect Frame, so no real worries when a white foal is born.

It was only at the beginning when there were no tests for LWO that a white foal would be a worry.

I think Freeland and I did mention, a few times, that Sabino cause "normal" white on horses, did we not??

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As both the sire and dam could easily be overo and as Becky didn't mention whether or not she had them tested for LWO I don't know how you can so smugly say that! You should be careful when making assumptions.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Only Frame carries LWO. Overo is a misleading term.

 

[Becky]

Thanks Becky! She is a very pretty little filly. Now have you been over every inch and she has NO black on her? Anywhere? She would be a maximum sabino then? OR just a white horse?

She is maximum Sabino and as Rabbit said could be Splashed White too. No LWO. Yes, she is solid white without a black hair anywhere. There actually isn't such a thing as 'just a white horse'. Horses don't come in 'white'. Research has shown that any white horse you see is is likely to be cremello, perlino or a maximum expression of one or more of the overo patterns. Color testing has opened up a whole new world as far as colors go!

 

[MiLo Minis]

Only Frame carries LWO. Overo is a misleading term.

I asked recently on this forum about testing for LWO and was told that I should test if I even suspected that my horses could carry the frame gene. As Becky's horses appear obviously overo it is entirely possible that they could carry the LWO gene. I don't see what is so misleading about that. They are overo and could be frame although not displaying the trait.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

MiLo since you seem only interested in being right, and arguing, I fail to see how this thread can be constructive. I have to say I do not understand your attitude at all. My point seemed to me to be self evident, Becky had stated the horses are Splash.

Splash does not carry LWO.

Therefore the foal could not have been a Lethal White.

A lot of people seem to think that "overos" carry LWO, whereas as we know, Frame is the only carrier, thus terming Splash "overo" can cause confusion and cause people to think it might be LWO.

All this is very, very basic stuff, I'm not even sure why we have to go over it, surely everyone knows all this???

 

[ThreeCFarm]

If they are one and the same as Sabino or overo why have there not been 2 horses of any other breed than Paint or pinto with only a white facial marking that have produced a pinto horse when bred together? I would think that if this had happened in say a Thorobred breeding it would be such an anomoly that it would have been highly publicized. I know there have been multitudes of Thorobreds with white facial markings that have been bred together.

Ah, but TBs do produce Paints! Check this link, and there are more if you do a search: Colorworld Ranch.

 

[MiLo Minis]

MiLo since you seem only interested in being right, and arguing, I fail to see how this thread can be constructive. I have to say I do not understand your attitude at all. My point seemed to me to be self evident, Becky had stated the horses are Splash.

Splash does not carry LWO.

Therefore the foal could not have been a Lethal White.

A lot of people seem to think that "overos" carry LWO, whereas as we know, Frame is the only carrier, thus terming Splash "overo" can cause confusion and cause people to think it might be LWO.

All this is very, very basic stuff, I'm not even sure why we have to go over it, surely everyone knows all this???

My dear rabbitsfizz

At the time that I replied to that post I did not know that Becky's horses were splash. She had only stated that they were minimal sabino. You may have previously known or assumed they were splash - I didn't. You don't have to go over anything. If you don't want to post - don't. Becky must have been posting that the horses were splash at the same time or just before I posted my reply. I am not arguing merely questioning. There is no consensus on a lot of this information - just educated guesses and a lot of experts disagree with some of the information that you feel is true. I know there are some genenticists that still believe there ARE white horses. I can't argue one way or the other and neither can you. I didn't say anything about frame NOT being the only carrier of LWO, I am well aware of that fact, all I said was that Becky may have been concerned when she had an all white foal as she had not said she had the horses tested for LWO. You yourself said that a horse that looked like either one of Becky's should be tested for LWO in a previous thread. If you have a problem discussing things like this perhaps you shouldn't post on them - I am not trying to upset you just want to discuss different points of view.