terrific colour site

[MiLo Minis]

This is an awesome site with good descriptions, tons of pictures and lots of information on colour!

http://www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/...color_genes.htm

Check it out.

 

[Songcatcher]

Interesting site. I enjoyed looking at it.

 

[CAM]

Thank you for the site information. Did anyone else have trouble reading it all? The words went off the screen when I viewed it.

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[rabbitsfizz]

Cam it may be the Forum hiccupping but I had to "open up the screen" ie, remove my Favourites bar in order to see it. It's a nice site, and the "blurb" is interesting too, lot's of pretty mustangs.

One day someone will actually get the hang of the fact that Tobiano does not have face white, but I will not hold my breath!!

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Beautifully put together- someone has obviously put a lot of work into it.

 

[MiLo Minis]

"One day someone will actually get the hang of the fact that Tobiano does not have face white, but I will not hold my breath!!

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They probably never will because there are just so darn many TESTED Tobianos out there WITH face white that it would make them look silly to make that statement. Could you explain why you feel a tobiano cannot have a star, strip, snip, blaze, etc just like any other horse?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

MiLo there is no test for Tobiano beyond Homozygosity. A horse can be tested H/Z for Tobiano and still carry Splash, Sabino, Frame or all three.

A Tobiano is generally accepted to have no face white, it is also now generally accepted that all white markings are caused by the presence of a Pinto pattern in minimal- hence the loud Sabino and Splash TBs and Arabs that have "suddenly" appeared- the patterns have, in fact always been there, but not encouraged.

Once encouraged they exhibit more and more loudly.

Face white on a Tobiano is accepted to indicate that there is another pattern present.

 

[Charlotte]

A Tobiano is generally accepted to have no face white, it is also now generally accepted that all white markings are caused by the presence of a Pinto pattern in minimal- hence the loud Sabino and Splash TBs and Arabs that have "suddenly" appeared- the patterns have, in fact always been there, but not encouraged. Once encouraged they exhibit more and more loudly.

Face white on a Tobiano is accepted to indicate that there is another pattern present.

Good, simple to understand, explanation Rabbitsfizz.....I'll add that to my color file if that's ok with you.

Charlotte

 

[MiLo Minis]

There IS nothing proven and therefore, generally, these are all just theories and whether you choose to accept the theory or not is basically a matter of choice. Some very well known geneticists choose not to go with that theory and who can blame them. What it says is that every horse out there with white anywhere on its body is a pinto and I think that is stretching it. You have to figure that somewhere way back in history ALL horses originated from the original animal just like every other species so it is possible. I believe that we have created the various breeds and of course breeding a Thoroughbred or Arabian to a pinto is going to encourage the pattern - they haven't just suddenly appeared. Once there is a test for facial markings we will all KNOW FOR SURE won't we!

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[kaykay]

this trait of Tobiano confuses everyone. Especially in miniatures as most of them are carrying sabino or splash putting the white on the face of a Tobiano. HOpe Sarah doesnt mind but this is from her site equinecolor.com

Tobianos are easily identified by their white legs and solid colored head. This combination is unique because generally leg and face markings are seen on the same horse. If the head does have a white marking it is caused by Sabino, Frame or Splash.

 

[Frankie]

Thanks for the link.

It can be and is confusing to me as well, but I try to keep learning by reading as much as I can.

 

[MiLo Minis]

The problem with reading things on a website is that just because it says its so doesn't necessarily mean it is so. Like Rabbitfizz said, there is no test, so all of these conjectures are just theory and until proved do not mean that it is so. There are other colour "experts" that disagree and they are every bit as viable until proven otherwise. Just because there is face white does not mean it is NOT a tobiano. They can be homozygous for Tobiano and still have face white. Whether this means they carry sabino, frame, overo as well or perhaps just a marker for face white we don't know yet.

 

[CAM]

The problem with reading things on a website is that just because it says its so doesn't necessarily mean it is so. Like Rabbitfizz said, there is no test, so all of these conjectures are just theory and until proved do not mean that it is so. There are other colour "experts" that disagree and they are every bit as viable until proven otherwise. Just because there is face white does not mean it is NOT a tobiano. They can be homozygous for Tobiano and still have face white. Whether this means they carry sabino, frame, overo as well or perhaps just a marker for face white we don't know yet.

:aktion033: I agree. Since I have been reading into this alot lately I have come across some sources that indicate it is a possibility to have a star, snip, even a blaze on a tobiano and not be caused by something else like sabino or splash. Even Sponenbberg doesn't rule it out. It will be interesting to know for sure some day when tests become available for all of these genes. Then we can all be certain. Until then, we have to go with what we have read and that, it appears, can be contradictory at best.

 

[remington]

[SIZE=12pt]Thanks for sharing that....it's just what I have been in need of lately! Cool and informative.

:[/SIZE]

 

[*minis*]

The problem with reading things on a website is that just because it says its so doesn't necessarily mean it is so. Like Rabbitfizz said, there is no test, so all of these conjectures are just theory and until proved do not mean that it is so. There are other colour "experts" that disagree and they are every bit as viable until proven otherwise. Just because there is face white does not mean it is NOT a tobiano. They can be homozygous for Tobiano and still have face white. Whether this means they carry sabino, frame, overo as well or perhaps just a marker for face white we don't know yet.

I'm far from being a color expert and please forgive me if I'm wrong, but to me it always sounded that the DEFINITION of a pinto pattern that involves white legs and no facial markings is tobiano.

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[kaykay]

milo no one said that a horse CANNOT be tobiano with face white. Of course they can!! We see hundreds of them right here on the forum. But most people would say that the face white was caused by another gene NOT tobiano.

I have a tobiano with no face white. If your theory were true that face white is caused by tobiano why does she not have any?? If that were true all tobis would have face white and they dont.

Even this site that you posted says clearly "head like a solid colored horse" because that is a Tobiano trait. Face white is not.

Kay

 

[justjinx]

I also have a tobiano mare with no white face markings yet is spotted and has white legs. jennifer :saludando:

 

[rabbitsfizz]

A Homozygous Tobiano can, of course, have face white- this will then mean, quite simply that it is a H/Z Tobiano + Splash/Sabino/Frame and should, of course be tested for LWO before being crossed with any LWO mares.

H/Z Tobiano does not mean that only Tobiano is present, it means that only Tobiano is sure to be passed on.

I did not say crossing Arabs and TBs to Pinto would produce more colour- I said PUREBRED Arabs and TBs that are expressing Splash and Sabino- as Pintos. Purebred, not crossbred. The Sabino and Splash has always been there, in the Purebreds, it is just that until recently, it has not been encouraged, or even allowed to express. Now that Purebred "Pinto" Arabs and TBs are appreciated, people are breeding specifically for this pattern.

Kick over the traces all you want, I am all for freedom of opinion, BUT the generally held opinion is that Tobiano does not have face white, and the opinion that is slowly forming out of all others is that ALL white markings are Sabino, which is a polygenic gene. In minimal Sabino appears to express as leg and face white- as I can attest to in Welsh and Arabs. "High White" is common on Welsh Cobs, yet there are NO "pinto" Welsh Cobs.

Suddenly there is this craze for Gypsy Vanners so the Welsh Cob people are encouraging the pattern to express and what do you know?? Pinto Welsh Cobs (Unregisterable, of course, but worth more money as Gypsy Vanners anyway!!)

 

[slaneyrose]

I agree with Milo.... A theory is ONLY a theory until its proven so until then It shouldnt be stated as fact by colour "experts" until PROVEN. just my opinion.

 

[MiLo Minis]

My feeling is that white facial markings are caused by a separate gene or marker and are available to all horses but that over centuries of natural selection dating from a time when white in the herd would heighten visibility to predators and of course helped along by man when he came on the scene has become linked to certain other genes that increase the white factor. We all know that the herd, just like we lovely humans, can be somewhat discriminatory towards horses of certain colours and display a natural tendency to associate with other herd members of like colour. I think that over the centuries this has resulted in certain breeds that display a prepondancy of a certain colour such as grey or white or black or whatever. The horses that were ostrasized tended likely to congregate together and breed together. I think it is possible that this is why you see the lighter colours on a whole, and of course there are acceptions to every rule, occuring in breeds that are found in the less desirable climates such as rocky, desert or icy areas. It is possible that, as a single gene, facial markings occur in all breeds as strips, snips or blazes, some breeds showing more of a tendency to have them and maybe as a double gene they produce the bolder facial markings such as apron or bald faces. They have become linked to high white genes like Sabino or overo due to natural selection. Face it, all horses originated from the same animal and have, over the years, evolved to be what they are today. Genes were mutated along the way and I think that facial white genes are a separate mutation. If they are one and the same as Sabino or overo why have there not been 2 horses of any other breed than Paint or pinto with only a white facial marking that have produced a pinto horse when bred together? I would think that if this had happened in say a Thorobred breeding it would be such an anomoly that it would have been highly publicized. I know there have been multitudes of Thorobreds with white facial markings that have been bred together.

Aren't colour genetics every bit as much fun to discuss as politics?!!! :bgrin

 

[runamuk]

My feeling is that white facial markings are caused by a separate gene or marker and are available to all If they are one and the same as Sabino or overo why have there not been 2 horses of any other breed than Paint or pinto with only a white facial marking that have produced a pinto horse when bred together? I would think that if this had happened in say a Thorobred breeding it would be such an anomoly that it would have been highly publicized. I know there have been multitudes of Thorobreds with white facial markings that have been bred together.

Aren't colour genetics every bit as much fun to discuss as politics?!!! :bgrin

Sorry to correct you BUT what you just proposed happens alot......

clydesdales are bay preferably with a blaze and white socks...guess what they get alot of sabino's/pinto in trying to get those perfect pieces of chrome......

Arabians frequently when breeding for chrome white blaze and four white socks you end up with roaned flanks skunk tail belly spots and even occasionally full on pinto markings.

Welsh also same thing when breeding for chrome you always run the risk of pinto popping out.

Also this is seen in t-breds as well the difference is t-breds aren't typically bred for their color they are bred to run.

In fact I believe new image bred her q-horse mare to a pinto t-bred.

I'd be happy to locate lots of pics of breeds where pinto isn't accepted but happens on a regular enough basis.

in arabs and welsh, pinto is frowned upon.

It is now very much accepted that facial white and stockings are related to pinto gene's. for some excellent color info spend time at the UC davis equine color website, sarah a member here has a wonderful equine color site which contains much of the newest info. And Sponnenbergs own theories contradict each other depending on which book edition you are reading

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