Overseas sales

[MountainMeadows]

SInce this original poster was inquiring about AMHA vs AMHR in EUROPE and OVERSEAS --- I fail to see how qualifying for Nationals/Worlds is of any consequence on this post whatsoever - I doubt very seriously that we are going to see many horses competing overseas to qualify for either show and then flying over here to participate.

Let's keep this post positive - the fact that the AMHR has formed an International committee to HELP those breeders in Europe have a vehicle in which they can be able to show is HUGE!

Let's not diminish that fact with all this other stuff.

In Europe it may well be that the majority of horses that have been sold are AMHA registered horses, but I'm here to tell you that a percentage of those AMHA horses are going to produce foals that outgrow their 34" papers - then where will they go? AMHA refuses to pull their heads out of the sand concerning this issue, the venue is there - AMHR - and if a beautiful horse from AMHA parents goes over 34" it should still have the abililty and right to show and reproduce beautiful offspring.

"That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!"

Stac

 

[Becky]

I can tell you that the horses I've sold overseas are all double registered with AMHA and AMHR and if the market opens up in Europe for AMHR horses as well, it can only help sales here in the US.

 

[Fred]

Stacy is 100% right on. Some horses will outgrow those precious "A" papers and where will that leave the buyers. Both registries are height registries. Both have their good and bad points but to be honest I would MUCH rather have a horse that is AMHR registered. For those that believe that only the ponies win at nationals they need to get their head out of the sand because my horses aren't ponies and have long "A" pedigrees and they win consistently as do Belinda's and Jim Curry's and they are AMHA registered also. Linda

 

[R3]

SInce this original poster was inquiring about AMHA vs AMHR in EUROPE and OVERSEAS --- I fail to see how qualifying for Nationals/Worlds is of any consequence on this post whatsoever - I doubt very seriously that we are going to see many horses competing overseas to qualify for either show and then flying over here to participate.

Let's keep this post positive - the fact that the AMHR has formed an International committee to HELP those breeders in Europe have a vehicle in which they can be able to show is HUGE!

Let's not diminish that fact with all this other stuff.

In Europe it may well be that the majority of horses that have been sold are AMHA registered horses, but I'm here to tell you that a percentage of those AMHA horses are going to produce foals that outgrow their 34" papers - then where will they go? AMHA refuses to pull their heads out of the sand concerning this issue, the venue is there - AMHR - and if a beautiful horse from AMHA parents goes over 34" it should still have the abililty and right to show and reproduce beautiful offspring.

"That's my story, and I'm sticking to it!"

Stac

If you are truly interested in keeping things positive and are stating, "Let's not diminish that fact with all this other stuff." why did you feel the need to add the next section to your post (the part I have bolded and underlined)?

In regard to the part of the quote above that I have emphasised... The fact that some horses will outgrow their AMHA papers is no different than the fact that some AMHR horses will outgrow their AMHR papers. So, should the AMHR organization be told that they need to, "pull their heads out of the sand concerning this issue"?

Since you believe that AMHA horses should, "...have the abililty and right to show and reproduce beautiful offspring" if they outgrow their papers, via AMHR, what do you propose should happen to AMHR horses that grow taller than 38"? What miniature horse registry should we be supporting for the oversize AMHR miniatures?

Every miniature horse registry has their height limits. That is their right. For AMHA it is 34", for AMHR it is 38". Each should be allowed to do as they wish.

If people overseas want to embrace AMHR, that is wonderful. It can only be a plus for AMHA as all AMHA horses can qualify for AMHR, whereas, not all AMHR horses can be a part of AMHA because of the height limitations.

 

[Sunshine Acres]

If you are truly interested in keeping things positive and are stating, "Let's not diminish that fact with all this other stuff." why did you feel the need to add the next section to your post (the part I have bolded and underlined)?

Since you believe that AMHA horses should, "...have the abililty and right to show and reproduce beautiful offspring" if they outgrow their papers, via AMHR, what do you propose should happen to AMHR horses that grow taller than 38"? What miniature horse registry should we be supporting for the oversize AMHR miniatures?

Every miniature horse registry has their height limits. That is their right. For AMHA it is 34", for AMHR it is 38". Each should be allowed to do as they wish.

Actually R3 you are incorrect.

AMHR has developed a place for those horses that go over the 38 in mini height as well as the pony height. Seeing as they are looking for a place for all small equine horses currently under the umbrella of their registry and don't want to lose them they developed the performance division of NSPR. They have thought ahead and realized while not breeding for them these things happen and have given them a place to go.

The reality is like it or not AMHR will soon also be very competitive for the overseas market and AMHA will once again have to deal with the fact that AMHR can compete. Of course ultimately giving those overseas buyers much more choice and diversion which can only be better for the entire breed of Miniature Horses.

 

[R3]

Actually R3 you are incorrect.

AMHR has developed a place for those horses that go over the 38 in mini height as well as the pony height. Seeing as they are looking for a place for all small equine horses currently under the umbrella of their registry and don't want to lose them they developed the performance division of NSPR. They have thought ahead and realized while not breeding for them these things happen and have given them a place to go.

The reality is like it or not AMHR will soon also be very competitive for the overseas market and AMHA will once again have to deal with the fact that AMHR can compete. Of course ultimately giving those overseas buyers much more choice and diversion which can only be better for the entire breed of Miniature Horses.

I don't believe I am wrong. I am referring to a MINIATURE horse registry for the oversize AMHR horses. I am aware of the other registry that is offered by AMHR, but it is a PONY registry for animals that are part-bred or over-sized miniatures.

In her post Stac implied that the AMHA horses should still be considered MINIATURE horses, through AMHR, even though they were larger than the AMHA height limitation. So, by that same logic, an AMHR miniature is still a miniature horse and should still have a MINIATURE horse registry for them so they can reproduce and show as miniature horses.

I don't think that AMHA would have a problem with recognizing part bred AMHA horses that are over 34" as ponies, but they draw the line at calling them AMHA Miniatures. Why should AMHA have to recognize 'miniature' as being over 34" tall, if AMHR is not willing to recognize over 38" as 'miniature'?

That is the point I am making.

 

[Kitty]

We are happy that AMHR will be recognized overseas

and would like to THANK the new formed committe for its efforts

We are a farm that breeds for horses that are 32-34 inches and many overseas breeders don't want them that tall

I have sold a number of horses to France and I sent the AMHR papers but I am sure they never transferred them over.

The pedigree line is lost that way.

We show mainly AMHR because the shows are all around us and I love the friendly family environment and the competition is STIFF. Everyone is there to win and have FUN!!!!! The days of the pet quality horse being there is over. I didn't see a horse there that didn't belong there last year. And alot of the horses were shown at AMHR go on to show at the World. Heck I will be having our Nighthawk colt shown with Lee Crutchfield this year A and R and I'm sure he will do very well at both because he is a nice colt not because one registery is easier to place at then the other.

Please keep this nice and positive. Most of us double register our horses-even if you don't show in the other registry. So this is a good bonus for those of you that don't show AMHR.

 

[JWC sr.]

Over the past several of years we have exported about 35 horses over seas and it has always been interesting to work with the folks over there.

We have found that the folks over there really like the double registered horses and lean towards them. Thus all of our herd is double registered with the exception of a couple of horses.

Anyone looking to send horses over there though needs to team up with someone that understands the ropes. It is not just a transportation & registry type situation. There are a number of things to consider such as the stud books for any breeding horse and the requirements they must meet, measuring to the top of the withers as versus the last mane hair etc. etc.

As far as the differences between the two registries and there are some. We enjoy both registries and show in both. This age old discussion about the differences and which is better is a little like trying to decide which is better Chocolate or Rocky Road Ice Cream. LOL They are both good and at different times I love both of them.

We really enjoy the combination shows where you have a AMHR show followed by an AMHA show, because we get to see a good cross section of the miniature industry in both horses and people. Which I think is something we will see more of in the future.

 

[kaykay]

It always makes me a little sad that this always turns into an argument.

I went to my first AMHR nationals in 2006. I was in a class of 73 miniature horses. There was not one horse in my opinion that was not worthy of being there. And theres no way I would have wanted to have been one of the judges. So many beautiful horses in one class!! And even though Im a nobody I felt that each judge took the time to really look at my horse and give me a chance.

The statement that ASPC/AMHR is run by all pony people is really outdated but that statement has been around ever since I got into small equine 7 years ago.

I think many people are like me and are both. I bought my first miniature and then bought a shetland pony the next week. I love them both and I consider myself both a "miniature person" and a "pony person"

I think I have the best of both worlds.

Maybe another thread could be started if a debate is wanted and leave this one to being proud that work is being done to get these awesome small horses recognized over seas!!

 

[Jean_B]

One thing that no one has pointed out regarding AMHR. They may have the largest Nationals, but that is because no horse has to qualify to be in the Nationals. As long as they go to two AMHR shows they can go to the Nationals, even if they placed last at every show and in every class. They also only need to be entered in one class at the two shows that they go to, to qualify. They could enter only the color class at both shows and get to go to the Nationals and enter all of the classes.

AMHA requires the horses to qualify with so many points in each class before they can be entered at the World Show. Thus eliminating hundreds of horses. If AMHA changed their rules to be the same as AMHR, the World show may also be larger, but then classes would go well into the wee hours of the morning like they do at AMHR.

I have shown both AMHA and AMHR and the one thing I have found with AMHR is that they are a pony club with a Miniature registry. Pony people run this club, not Miniature horse people. I have nothing against AMHR, I only have the time and resources to show one registry, (all of my horses are double registered) but I decided to go AMHA because it is a Miniature horse club for only Miniature horses.

Oh GOOD GRIEF. 'Nuff said! BACK TO THE TOPIC.

One thing to keep in mind....Europe is NOT one nation. It is many different countries and each country measures differently. Some at the withers, some at the last hairs. And even within one country, there might be two different registries or associations that measure differently.

So when approached by a potential buyer from Europe, and they want to know how tall a horse is - I always ask if their country measures at the withers or last hairs.

I am thrilled that ASPC/AMHR is working with our neighbors across the pond. This is a win/win for EVERYONE!! Doesn't matter if they are an AMHA-only breeder.... or if they are an AMHA/AMHR breeder......or if they are an ASPC/AMHR breeder!

 

[Meavey]

It doesn´t really matter that we measure on the withers thats only for the european studbooks, all the AMHA/AMHR shows we have do follow the rulebooks of those associations, so that´s not the problem, you only have to remember that you guys measure on the last hair of the main so for the studbooks here, they are always a bit bigger, but the one here in holland takes up to 38 inches so no problems there.

Why do we prefer AMHA? First because there are more AMHA shows over here, also people prefer smaller so would we pay at least 2500-3000 dollars to ship a bigger horse to europe, if a smaller one will cost the same to ship?

I think it´s the same reason why AMHR´s only are usually cheaper in the US too, it´s not different from here, people prefer smaller, so that why we at least want AMHA, cause there is a bigger market for them.

 

[Whistle Mountain Miniatures]

Hello,

First of all I would like to introduce myself, my name is Sonja Koster and I'm from The Netherlands.. Some of you probably know me from this forum, though it's been a while since I was active...

Roswitha called me and pointed me to this topic, she is the president of the ICAMH and in contact with the international commitee of the AMHR, but she's having problems getting registered and logged in on this forum. So this is also why I'm reacting and of course also because I am the owner of some very wonderful AMHR horses..

Our club, the ICAMH is trying to start promoting the AMHR horses in Europe, in this club I am the vice president and one of the people that really love the bigger miniature horses and would like to give the european people the opportunity to see the bigger AMHR horses.

For my oppinion, though this is also a matter of personal taste, I feel that the bigger miniatures are nicer then the really small one. But here in Europe it's very hard to sell the bigger ones..

We really try to attent people to the quality of the AMHR horses but it's hard to do so.. This year we'll have 2 AMHR shows, both probably won't be officially approved by the AMHR, but we're trying to do it this way to make people enthousiast for it.

There are a lot of people that have double registered horses but they don't do anything with the AMHR papers unless some of the offspring go oversized.. This is a pitty.. When we would make both shows approved there would be a lot of people that wouldn't be able to attend since their papers aren't ok.. When we would allow them to participate in our AMHR shows and they are starting to really like it they hopefully start working on the papers so that we as a club can start organizing approved shows in the future.

At this moment I own a few horses that are only AMHR registered, they are all good quality horses with some very nice offspring, but when people like the pictures of the ones that are for sale they ask height and you never hear them again.. This is something we must try to change, not because of my sales but because the fact that AMHR b division horses are good quality horses with much more opportunity to work with in driving and things like that.

In this the ICAMH could use any help that's available.. We're a starting club, our fiancial positions aren't great, organizing shows is expensive.. If anyone of you has some ideas, or maybe would become a sponsor of our club to help us to promote the AMHR horses you're more then welcome..

Sorry for the long reply, but we, as the ICAMH, hope on some responces or ideas to help our club in it's promoting of the AMHR.

Thanks,

Sonja

 

[Epona Stable Belgium]

Great information Sonja!!

Like she says, here in Europe we don't buy a ''oversised horse'' or not always

To bad because there are verry beautiful horses, and yes I think also that some AMHR horses are better build than the small ones...

We like those long leg's not???

I don't have a AMHR horse but if I really fall in love with an amhr horse... I will not hesitate!

Just hope that for the shows they will get approved here... that would be great and there will be an opportunity to sell more AMHR horses!

I also agree with Meavy! why pay for shipping ''oversised horses''

I hope that this wil change in the future??

 

[kaykay]

I do think though the part that keeps getting missed is that there are a TON of AMHR horses that are 34" and under. I dont know why people automatically assume that an AMHR horse is B size? Its just so odd to me. I prefer the taller ones but I know the 34 and under way out number the over division.

My hope is you guys will get some AMHR (and hopefully AMHR/ASPC) shows going over there and find out how great the AMHR horses and shows are! The hardest part is always getting started.

If I can be of any help please email me as I would love to help promote our AMHR horses over there and support your club

Kay

 

[Whistle Mountain Miniatures]

Hello Kay,

There are several ways to support our club and to help us to promote the AMHR horses.. It's not only the b-division we want to support, it's all the AMHR horses and you're right, there are even more A division horses then B division..

Strange thing is that also the A division AMHR horses without AMHA registration are "not wanted" ... Sounds strange, but it's the truth here..

Think that a big part of the problem is that there are no places were we can show the AMHR horses, we've started the ICAMH and we're going to organize AMHR shows, but organizing shows costs a lot of money, and this is the biggest problem..

Since people seem to think that the AMHR horses aren't as good as the AMHA horses they don't want to invest and this is making everything very hard for us.. This year we will have 2 shows, but this is a number that needs to increase in the coming years.

There are several more show clubs in Europe, but all of them only have AMHA classes or "open classes" which means that you have to compete in the "open classes" with the AMHR horses.. This means you have to compete against part-breds and also AMHA horses.. There just seems to be no place for the AMHR and this is making things worse since it helps to keep up the idea of "AMHR horses are worth much less then AMHA"..

We need to do more for the AMHR to promote them...

But the biggest problem is "where do we find the money" to start this promotion?

Maybe there are people interested in supporting our club? This can be done by bezoming a sponsor or sending items to us that we can use in a lottery?

There are several ways to do things, maybe it's a good thing to check on our website to see what is possible and to see what you would get in return of your support if you would send us items or money..

Here's the address of our website: www.icamh.com

You can also get in thouch with our secretary, she's the one that is coordinating the sponsorring, her email address is [email protected]

Thank you,

Sonja

 

[Whistle Mountain Miniatures]

There is more I was just thinking of...

We could use nice pictures, show pictures, foal pictures and everything else... They will be used on our website or in our newsletter that will be send to our members 4 times a year..

Maybe you have some nice stories about the miniatures for information about the breed of shows?

This are all things we could use... If you would become a member of our club your address information would come on our website including a link to your website..

There are so many ways to give us some help and support...

Thanks again,

Sonja

 

[Epona Stable Belgium]

By supporting ICAMH... AMHR horses can be promoted in Europe!

And AMHR horses may not be treated as low quality horses because they are not!

So everybody go to the website and take a good look at this new club!!

I'm curious to see those pictures!!

@ Kay: Sorry I didn't explained verry good... Not all AMHR are oversised... but like Sonja told... people seem to think that the AMHR horses aren't as good as the AMHA horses...

Let's proove that!

I wish ICAMH all Good Luck this year and I hope to be a member next year!!!

 

[kaykay]

Im with you ladies!! I know we can all get this done. I will email the secretary and get all the information.

Im curious what are your biggest advertising magazines for small equine?

Thanks

Kay

 

[Boinky]

I'm not sure where the statement that "AMHA sells for more than AMHR even in the US" comes from. That is certainly not true. I've seen many AMHR horses priced and sell for FAR FAR more than many amha horses. It all depends on what you like and what you want i s'pose. Europe is just taking cues from what they hear which isn't always the truth.

 

[Whistle Mountain Miniatures]

I'm not sure where the statement that "AMHA sells for more than AMHR even in the US" comes from. That is certainly not true. I've seen many AMHR horses priced and sell for FAR FAR more than many amha horses. It all depends on what you like and what you want i s'pose. Europe is just taking cues from what they hear which isn't always the truth.

Thank you for mentioning this... I totally agree, but here the people look at the paper next thing they say is "is he/she only AMHR registered?" and if you agree they think the horse is too expensive since AMHR isn't worth much....

The only reason I can think of why people think this way is because it's just grown like that here in Europe.. Years and years ago somebody started with AMHA horses, everybody started looking at them, fell in love with them and nothing else mattered (?) anymore, only the true AMHA were good enough...

Most of the people seem to forget that the AMHA first even didn't exist and that ALL AMHA horses come from AMHR horses/bloodlines in the beginning...

But what can we do to let the people know?

Thank you all for thinking with us, helping us and supporting us with this!

Sonja