Measuring... heard talk of a new proposal...

[RhineStone]

Unfortunately they can't!

You know how bad the situation is for small ponies in the ADS and most 37.5-38" miniatures this would affect would also measure over the 39" VSE limit. It happened here to one large B mini and it broke his owners' hearts as he can no longer honestly be used for CDE competition although he is still (currently) well within AMHR B division limits and can show there.

Not to hijack the thread, but to clarify...the ADS is more than just CDEs. Yes, I know that is what is prominent in the NW, but there are other forms of driving where the ADS welcomes any size horses!

I also see the ADS in the future dealing fairly with the small ponies having to carry a groom in CDEs. If there is enough people that want it, it will come. Just like if (hopefully) there are enough people that want horses measured at the withers, it will come!

 

[ohmt]

I like the proposal Belinda! I do think that it should start with horses born 2012 and later, not 2011 since many breeders will need to do a bit of tweeking in their breeding programs. Mares are already bred for next year so the resulting foals of the B sized horses with high withers pushing them over 38", they need to be allowed measurement at the last hairs of the mane as well. I myself just bought a 34" reserve national grand champion stallion and bred him to 6 of my mares. I only breed for 34" and under horses, so I may need to rethink my use of him. He is 36" at the top of his withers. If his foals end up tall A going by last hair of the mane, but have his high withers, I'll have some problems! I do support the idea though. Keep us updated on its progress!

 

[kaykay]

VI Part 7 C Page 103With Animal in position , the head in the normal position. Measure the vertical distance from the top of the wither to the measuring surface. All horses registered prior to 2011 will still be measured at the last hair of the mane for Showing.

I really cant think of how this could work without changing the heights. Especially using 2011 is not at all realistic. That wont even let in the foals that people just bred.

I dont see what the big deal is about changing height divisions. Its still the same horse?? The horse is not actually any taller then it was measured at the last hair.

I just hate to see anything put through without firm knowledge of what will happen in the future or how it will be implemented and enforced.

I still remember when the directors of ASPC/AMHR passed the no hardshipping rule with barely any notice to the membership (went into affect almost immediately) which was clearly against what the members wanted. I had so many friends that were caught in that with mares they had already bred and then had unregistrable foals. I believe our own Mary Lou got caught in that one. I dont think the rule itself was bad but how it was implemented was horrible.

I have the same feeling about this one.

Okay Lavern where are ya?? Would love to hear Laverns opinion as she has a great B breeding program so she would definitely be affected.

 

[R3]

Belinda,

I fully support measuring in the way you are proposing. I personally think that your proposal could be 'tweaked' in two ways.

1. I would suggest measuring ALL horses as proposed at a show. But, if a horse doesn't measure under 38", and it was born before a certain date, then it would be re-measured, using the 'last hair of the mane' location. If it measured under 38" by that measurement, it would be allowed to show. If not, it could not show.

This to me is a better way, for two reasons. First, you will only have a height 'discrepency' (horses that are now 'taller' than the height division in which they entered) between animals in the tallest division., all other height divisions will be competing from the same playing field. Secondly, the Steward will not be constantly having to check the birth/registration date to decide 'how' to measure the horse. They would all be measured the same, they would only have to go to the 'last hair of the mane' for the horses that were over 38".

2. I would change the date from 2011 to some date further in the future, at the very earliest 2012. This would give breeders a chance to change their program to prepare for the change in measuring location. They may want to breed their mares to a different stallion. Too many mares have already been bred to foal in 2011 for the owners to make a change now.

 

[horsehug]

While we are all being very civil, I just feel like stating my feeling on measurement.

I have never understood why it matters so much to people what other breeds think of the way we measure.

Does the way we measure make anyone not want to buy a miniature horse?

I guess it just has never happened to me. I am used to people falling in love with them no matter how they are measured....... horse people and newbies to the horse world alike.

I personally have always felt they are unique little equines and having certain things different about them makes them even more special! I am totally fine with measuring at the last hair of the mane. I've been doing it for 22 years now and never had a problem. And I tend to be completely honest in my measurements also. I am one who has turned in papers on a gorgeous AMHA mare who went over.

Maybe most people want to change it to the top of the withers. Not sure if that is so or if the ones who want it to stay the same just are not posting.

And I also abide by registry rules, so if it happens I'll abide by it. If the majority of members want it, so be it.

But I just wanted to say that I for one, am not for the change.

I've never once in 22 years had a problem of any kind based on the way I measure my minis!! I love that it is different from bigger horse breeds!

Susan O.

(Who many times in my life marches to the beat of a different drummer.)

 

[Jacki Loomis]

To Answer several of you , Yes I submitted this proposal for another person . I guess my shoulders are bigger LOL !!! As you all Know I am also a breeder of ASPC -AMHR -AMHA -ASPC/AMHR horses.. So yes it will effect me also.. But I agree with many the time has come to measure our horses as the rest of the equine world does. My Proposal reads as this. I am very open to suggestions , and change.. Just let's please stay on track and be civil !!!! This proposal was not done to hurt anyone , I want this to be the Members proposal,I want it to work for everyone, So I am very open to rework this so that it works for all concerned..

 

VI Part 7 C Page 103

With Animal in position , the head in the normal position. Measure the vertical distance from the top of the wither to the measuring surface. All horses registered prior to 2011 will still be measured at the last hair of the mane for Showing.

 

[Jacki Loomis]

I do not support the proposal to change the method of measuring AMHR Miniature Horses so that it is the same as used in other pony and standard sized horse registries and associations. I believe keeping our current method, that is the same as the other Miniature Horse registries in the United States, is the proper route to take. There are two major Miniature Horse registries/associations in the United States and they both measure using the same method, simple as that. I don't believe any change is needed.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]

 

[JMS Miniatures]

AMHA considers smaller horses to be of more value, NOT AMHR. There are a lot of us who have no interest in raising smaller horses and intentionally breed for "B" size. To some, 30" is a perfect horse. To me, 37-38" is perfect. That is the beauty of this registry - there is a place for everyone.

Well considering I raise only A size horses that are only AMHR registered as I cannot afford to do double I competely disagree with your statement. If that is the case then why the heck am I still in AMHR. I'm sure there are still ALOT of people still with the As and only do AMHR. Unless I see the registry giving special treatment to one paticular group I will stick with R. The miniature horse is suppose to be the smallest horse, plain and simple, should not be any need for raising heights. However, this proposal just needs to be looked at carefully, to try and make it fair for everyone. Altho I'm sure some won't be happy.

I don't see the huge fuss about having to grandfather in your older show horses. Its not like the stewards don't know how to measure from the last hair of the mane. It will still be the same way.

Again I still wish this will be put into affect for 2012, people have already bred there mares and may foal out too big of foals for this new measuring system.

 

[JWC sr.]

Folks also realise that when you sell horses into Europe that the horses are measured at the withers in order to be allowed to breed and be added into their stud book.

Having exported many horses into Europe, we are constantly ask for the regular AMHR/AMHA measurement and the "European Stud Book measurement". Again yes it does make a difference to overseas buyers who want to be able to breed their horses as allowed by European rules.

 

[RhineStone]

Where it really DOES matter how your horse is measured is outside the mini world. If you are ONLY going to show your horse in mini breed shows, then who cares how it is measured. But when you show in...let's start with 4-H (our state show's driving classes are split by height, the smallest is "Ponies 38" and Under" and measured at the withers), then it becomes an issue. Say you have a reg. mini, and take it to your local open show where they too measure on the withers, and now it has to be a pony, but you were all set to show it in the 38" and Under Mini Halter class. Yes, you show your horse in whatever class it "fits" in, but the rest of the world is not going to follow how minis measure at the last hairs. ADS "adjusted" their height standard to 39" or 99 cm for VSEs to "account" for potential higher wither measurements, but still measure withers.

The rest of the world will take the breed's official height standard for designating mini classes, but not how they are measured. It is confusing for people, and for no good reason, at least that has ever been explained to me.

 

[muffntuf]

Belinda,

Why was this proposal brought to the committee? What is the reason the 'person' or you, thought it would benefit the AMHR registry? I would like to understand the reasoning.

I think if all of us understood the reasoning behind it, it would help instead of speculation(s).

Also in your humble opinion - what does it benefit the AMHR registry to go this route?

Thanks!

 

[Yaddax3]

I do not support the proposal to change the method of measuring AMHR Miniature Horses so that it is the same as used in other pony and standard sized horse registries and associations. I believe keeping our current method, that is the same as the other Miniature Horse registries in the United States, is the proper route to take. There are two major Miniature Horse registries/associations in the United States and they both measure using the same method, simple as that. I don't believe any change is needed.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]

I'm with Jacki on this issue.

We're not breeders and, frankly, Belinda's proposal doesn't hurt us at all. I just believe in both the short- and long-term changing the way minis are measured will damage the registry and result in fewer horses and, as a result, less revenue.

What will be done to accommodate all the folks who don't have AMHR-ASPC double-registered minis but are breeding for that 36-38 inch mini under the current format? Do you really just tell them, "Oh, well. Too bad for you."

 

[AshleyNicole]

Having a stallion that is at the borderline of 34" I am also not for the change. I do think that AMHR and AMHA often mirror each other and a lot of farms will be affected if AMHR and then AMHA decide to go ahead with this. I realize that you can't please everyone but I do think that this will affect a lot of farms ( more than I think most people may think especially the AMHR/ASPC breeders). I guess I'm with horsehug on this one. Personally I don't care how other horses are measured they are not a height registry like AMHA and AMHR is and are not affected if a horse measures a inch or two more at the withers than they would at the last hairs. I think that measuring at the withers should have been decided at the beginning of both organizations but since it wasn't I don't see where hurting owners breeding programs will get us. If this must happen I think raising the height limit on both the A and B sized horses would be the only way to be "fair". If people decided not to breed a borderline horse I think that it will cut out a good section of the gene pool which I don't think we need, it seems just from this post that that would be the direction some would take which I think would only hurt the breed. I think that we need to look at it from all sides and look at it as to how it will affect the overall breed in the long run. It's not just about how the horses are measured at a show. People breed for their next show horse so it will affect those horses grandfathered in as well because what use are they after their show career is over, you don't want to produce a oversized horse with a grandfathered horse. Anyway that's just my opinion for what it's worth, hope it makes sense as I'm pretty tired right now lol.

I too would like to know the benefits or the reasoning behind this proposal.May change my mind after I know that

 

[sundaymom]

I'm not a sharer but more a lurker..lol. Learned more from this site then from any book or single person. Old and mind my own business, most times but had several thoughts from reading all the comments. Okay thats my intro..lol

Change is always hard and looking back is not going forward so...if wanting to do what is best for the promotion of the breed and not the individual, whay not think in terms of the best scenerio for everyone. Why keep working at this one bite at a time. AMHR has closed it's books and AMHA will also soon, so the oppurtunity is available in the next couple of years to start over fresh.

Thinking out loud...Why not go for a Miniature Horse breed label, instead of a height label? Any horese dna'd and registered AMHA and/or AMHR, after 2012, is and will always be an AMHA and/or AMHR miniature horse. Keep the height classifications for showing...keep the height limits with measuring at the top of wither...BUT allow any AMHA and or AMHR horse, registered after the books close, to retain their papers, no matter the height but with breeding papers only, for they are still miniature horses. This allows possiblities on a grand scale for promoting the breed, assisting those farms time to change programs without finacial loss who show or not and allows the public a wide range of miniature horses to choose from.

Every person on here likes different things about their horses looks, programs and abilites...the public is the same. A lot of miniature horses are sold to the public who never even bother to register them but want to buy a registerd horse..lol..look at all the horses sold who never get papers changed over. Some want a tiny pet, some a mini for the smaller kids to ride, others want a taller mini for the larger kids to ride, something to cart in or just for 4-h...and then some who just buy for the love of them and end up getting the show bug.

Most of the public already excepts that it is a breed...when asking about them or searching for one they don't ask for the 34" horse or the 38" horse...they search for the Miniature Horse.

Hope I haven't upset anyone to have said all this. Be back next year with another comment..lol!

 

[JWC sr.]

I think something along those lines makes sense and is what the powers that be are thinking. Unless I am grossly mistaken. You should post more often, those are good thoughts to consider in my opinion.

 

[Belinda]

Thinking out loud...Why not go for a Miniature Horse breed label, instead of a height label? Any horese dna'd and registered AMHA and/or AMHR, after 2012, is and will always be an AMHA and/or AMHR miniature horse. Keep the height classifications for showing...keep the height limits with measuring at the top of wither...BUT allow any AMHA and or AMHR horse, registered after the books close, to retain their papers, no matter the height but with breeding papers only, for they are still miniature horses. This allows possiblities on a grand scale for promoting the breed, assisting those farms time to change programs without finacial loss who show or not and allows the public a wide range of miniature horses to choose from.

Most of the public already excepts that it is a breed...when asking about them or searching for one they don't ask for the 34" horse or the 38" horse...they search for the Miniature Horse.

Hope I haven't upset anyone to have said all this. Be back next year with another comment..lol!

Hey , there is lots you said I like !! Sure gives us more food for thought ! These are the kind of things I wanted to see with this topic. Everyone sharing ideas and hopefully coming up with something that can work.. I totally understood going into this that some would like it , some would NOT , and some would have to take a while and think about it

, and all of those things are just fine with me .. But really there have been many good idea's put into this ,

 

Trace to answer your question why this was submitted to the committee , It was not ! A couple personal Friends , have talked about this for sometime with me and several other folks, We started to put this in last year but it got put on the back burner.. No need to speculate about anything to do with this proposal there is NO HIDDEN AGENDA .. Just trying to bring something to light that lots of folks have wanted for some time..

 

Actually the folks from Europe , Australia and many other country's measure their Miniatures at the wither, and when buying from the USA , have to get the sellers to measure the mini's at the wither and they have to be under 34" or 38" before they will purchse them and that is Fact..Just one more reason for trying to work this out also..

 

I knew it would have pro's and con's , but really was hoping all those folks that have wanted it so long would help in getting this worked out so it would be good for all ..

 

 

Now what I am going to say might make some upset , but it is just the truth of the matter !!The original intent of the B division when it was created by Bob Huston along with input from my father with Bob , was a place for those Miniature Horses that went over 34"...

 

And like everything I sure it was not in their fore sight to see that 20 some odd years later , we would be using that division for our Small shetlands .. AND before you all throw Darts at me , I show and raise as many as anyone !!!but Folks some of this is out of control with the size of these B Horses, I get calls daily From Folks about how much 38" has grown !! Now we can blame lots of things, from the people measuring , the folks owning them , the trainers , and on and on, I just feel like if we measured like the rest of the Equine world measures we would be better off.

 

Folks these double reg. horses can still be shown as Shetlands , just as several have pointed out , We are not taking anything away from anyone .. Is it really that bad to have to show your pony as Shetland instead of a Mini.. ? And I know some will say they are to small to compete, NOPE not so , I am showing a 34" ( at the top of the wither) Classic Stallion right now , NO he CAN NOT show as a Mini because he only shetland reg. and only a yearling ... But you know he has won and won Grands over those 40 and 42" ponies, So the way I Look at a Good horse is a Good horse no matter what the size..

 

So anyway good idea's from everyone !

 

 

[kaykay]

Folks these double reg. horses can still be shown as Shetlands , just as several have pointed out , We are not taking anything away from anyone .. Is it really that bad to have to show your pony as Shetland instead of a Mini..

Belinda for folks like you and I that have the ASPC/AMHR its not that big of a deal because as you said we can show shetland and they wont suddenly turn into grade horses.

But there are a number of farms that do breed AMHR B horses that are not ASPC registered. This could do those farms in. Thats why as I said previously I would love to hear from people like Lavern that have a lot of those horses, and how they feel about it.

And seriously, measuring at the withers vs the last mane hair is not going to stop people from putting in oversize horses. It wont make any difference at all to stop cheaters.

Another thing that bothers me is we are just now getting people to breed minis with proper withers. I do feel a con to this is people will purposely breed for mutton withered horses so that they measure smaller

I cant tell you how many people that have only owned miniatures come to my farm and ask me what that "hump" is on my ponies. Yep they are asking about the withers.

Again I am not opposed to measuring at the withers but I am opposed to making a lot of AMHR horses grade horses just because some want to change how we measure.

Kay

 

[muffntuf]

Speaking of the Double AMHR/ASPC Shetland breeders/owners/exhibitors, many have spent years putting their programs together. And yes they can compete at either the R or ASPC shows, they have to decide which per show, they cannot show both R and ASPC at the same show.

Last year at an Area VI Show, the club was able to offer a hefty payout prize for halter in both AMHR and ASPC, and driving. The exhibitor had to choose which, R or ASPC, they would show the animal in.

In the AMHR classes and double registered equine won. Being one of the representing sponsors, I was first aghast at the equine in the class, it clearly towered over the other B minis in the class. I approached the steward, the equine was showing as a B Miniature. The Steward measured it like a mini, and it was just a hair (no pun intended) under 38").

When I went to present the trophy and prize money to the exhibitor, I pulled up another B size mini, who was only AMHR registered. The two were measured the same height. And put together, they were the same height. The difference, the AMHR/ASPC had a more dainty leg, more leg on the inseam, and was a bit more trim around the barrel. The Equine won within the parameters of the class.

I see nothing wrong with smaller shetlands being measured into the AMHR side of the registry and showing there.

I see nothing wrong with the breeders who have built their programs around the double registration.

I do however see issues with taking this new measurement route. Many farms that raise B size miniatures, smaller shetlands and ones that have built their programs around the AMHR/ASPC double registration will take years to re-build their programs.

This seems like a really negative impact on our registry to switch gears like this.

 

[txminipinto]

I can say that if I am able to make it to convention (I so need a vacation without the family) I will be voting this down as it reads (sorry Belinda!). I'm fine with measuring at the withers but I am not ok with maintaining our current height limits or starting this new rule next year. We will be doing a huge disservice to those who have AMHR B only breeding stock. I'm not ok with the mentality of "well too bad they aren't ASPC/AMHR".

I guess I'm just tired of everyone taking from someone else is all (blame it on our presidency I guess). IF we do this, it needs to benefit EVERYONE and exclude NO ONE.

 

[jeniemac]

My opinion on the measuring is to leave it alone. "If it's not broke ,don"t fix it".. The way of meauring a "mini" isn't broke..

The way of measuring a "mini/shetland needs to be adressed.

If a mini/shetland is at a mini show it should be measured in by the miniature club rules. If at a shetland show ..measure in by the rules of the shetland club.

By crossing miniatures with shetlands we have created a whole seprate breed.

There were miniatures, then there were shetlands, now there are mini / shetlands. As beautiful as the m/s are they are not either if you get right down to it. They are their own breed.They should have their own classes or add another wing to the ASPC/AMHR for these crosses. Call it MiniShet... AMSC

or

Add several classes to the miniature shows to accomidate the m/s crosses. Call it OPEN MODERN MINIATURE OVER AND UNDER. As it seems that our miniatures are destain to move forward with the cross breeding.

I personally love the looks of the crosses but I do not want to own one. I can achieve the same look with mini to mini breeding it will just take longer and I am a patient person.

JUST MORE FOOD FOR THOUGHT