Judging Question

[Richters Mom]

Hi:

I'm a newbie to horse shows particularily in the halter classes. However, I have had great success over the past 30 + years in breeding/showing top quality dogs and for the past 10 yrs breeding top working K9s. So here lies my question: am I correct in assuming that the halter class helps determine breeding worthiness of a particular animal? If so, why is the bite of the entry and in the case of stallions their testicles, not checked by the judge?

Any responses would be greatly appreciated.

In advance, thank you.

Cassandra aka Richter's mom

 

[horsefeather]

AMHA checks both I believe. Really don't know why AMHR doesn't, unless it's time consuming.

Pam

 

[Minimor]

Sometimes they do check one or the other in AMHR. One show I was at--the first AMHR show I entered actually--the judges were checking bites on all of the horses. More recently I had a judge bend down & check for both testicles on a yearling colt I was showing--after he checked, one of the other judges did so as well, though a little more discreetly. Both judges then awarded the Grand to my colt, who did have both down & visible. <whew>

 

[Relic]

For AMHA shows we've for years had to send in a signed and dated certificate of Veterinary lnspection of Stallion when sending in entries for 3 year olds and older or you can't show in stallion classes...l like it this way better as it used to be the judge had to check each time and maybe feel if he couldn't be sure in the ring with everyone watching

. Stallions/mares teeth are checked each time you enter a class except for color or performance. l hope they come up with a vet certificate in the future for teeth as well. Geldings aren't checked for anything. AMHR l was really surprised they don't do that what good is a champion stallion with an off bite and no jewels in place and probably passing one or the other on..

 

[Richters Mom]

Hi:

I have to admit my hubby and I were surprised that something as important as bites and testicles weren't checked. Especially since faults like this can be the fall of a breed if overlooked. Someone had suggested to me that judges didn't check because horses are flight animals. However, it seems that most show animals regardless of species, are so used to being handled, groomed and trained that being manually inspected by a judge shouldn't create an issue. I really like the idea of the veterinarian certificate. Is this something that AMHR is working towards?

Thank you for your replies.

Cassandra

 

[~Lisa~]

It does happen in AMHR in fact last year at Nationals there was a judge who asked to see everyones teeth

 

[horsefeather]

It isn't required in AMHR so the judges should not have been able to check at Nationals. However, if they check 1 horse, they must check all of them (ie: if a stallion, then all the stallion, if mare, then all the mares, etc). I have found that the more cards judges have, the less they seem to know our rules. I think if I were going to judge Nationals, or any other mini show I sure would read the AMHR rules as there is some difference. I go thru that with a lot of the judges I steward for.

Pam

 

[~Lisa~]

Pam he did check every horse in that division meaning I do believe it was a open judge and he checked every mouth (that I saw) in the open division

 

[Minimor]

Even though it isn't required in AMHR there is no rule that says a judge cannot check teeth if he wishes to. Same with testicles--the rule says that a judge can check mature stallions, but it does not say he cannot check junior stallions...people just presume that "check mature stallions" (or whatever the exact wording is--that is what it amounts to) means "cannot check junior stallions".

If a judge wishes to include good bite in his list of requirements for choosing the winning halter horses, why shouldn't he check bites?

I personally hope that AMHR doesn't go to requiring a vet certificate that states a stallion has both testicles descended. As someone who wouldn't show (or even keep) a stallion that doesn't have both down, I don't feel like wasting $75 or $80 to get such a certificate--and that is about what it would cost here. I just wouldn't bother showing a senior stallion I guess.

 

[sfmini]

Wow! You must have an expensive vet!

It isn't a big deal, one time in the stallion's life you get the form signed and we do it when we have the vet out to do coggins and/or health papers.

No extra charge.

 

[Minimor]

Our vet isn't all that expensive really, as vets overall go. But, any exam is automatically $42 and mileage is $35, so $76 plus 12% tax. Granted I could haul a horse in to the clinic, but then it's an hour & a half of my time plus $15 in gas, plus the $42 exam fee...ends up being the same or more. I don't mind paying it for something that needs to be done--I pay the farm call fee to have the vet out to euthanize a cat, just to save the cat the stress of the trip to the clinic and I don't mind paying that at all, but for something so non-essential as a testical count I'm not inclined to pay out the money. Like I said, if I am showing a mature stallion, he'll have both jewels there. If he doesn't have them, I won't be showing them. I don't need a vet certificate to keep me honest.

It's nice that AMHA requires it, and even nicer that I don't show AMHA--but I don't think that AMHR needs to do something just for the sake of doing it the same as AMHR.

 

[disneyhorse]

Yes, in AMHR the judge has the option to check bites and testicles as desired. Often they do skip it due to time constraints.

However, the judge has every right to see any aspect of the horse when determining conformation in halter!

Andrea

 

[Karin - NaKar Miniatures]

Even a vet certificate isn't always 100% full proof.

I know of a Stallion that was shown AMHA that had a vet checked certificate. Was shown as a stallion. Someone purchased the stallion and it turned out he had only one testicle.

So, buyer beware!!! Just because it has a vet checked certificate or was being shown as a stallion it's important to have it double checked.

 

[Versatility Farm & Training]

For AMHA shows we've for years had to send in a signed and dated certificate of Veterinary lnspection of Stallion when sending in entries for 3 year olds and older or you can't show in stallion classes...l like it this way better as it used to be the judge had to check each time and maybe feel if he couldn't be sure in the ring with everyone watching

. Stallions/mares teeth are checked each time you enter a class except for color or performance. l hope they come up with a vet certificate in the future for teeth as well. Geldings aren't checked for anything. AMHR l was really surprised they don't do that what good is a champion stallion with an off bite and no jewels in place and probably passing one or the other on..

Just wanted to clarify, in AMHA geldings do not get their bite checked in gelding classes. But in the Grand champion classes they may be checked, and they ARE checked in Supreme.

 

[Versatility Farm & Training]

Our vet isn't all that expensive really, as vets overall go. But, any exam is automatically $42 and mileage is $35, so $76 plus 12% tax. Granted I could haul a horse in to the clinic, but then it's an hour & a half of my time plus $15 in gas, plus the $42 exam fee...ends up being the same or more. I don't mind paying it for something that needs to be done--I pay the farm call fee to have the vet out to euthanize a cat, just to save the cat the stress of the trip to the clinic and I don't mind paying that at all, but for something so non-essential as a testical count I'm not inclined to pay out the money. Like I said, if I am showing a mature stallion, he'll have both jewels there. If he doesn't have them, I won't be showing them. I don't need a vet certificate to keep me honest.

It's nice that AMHA requires it, and even nicer that I don't show AMHA--but I don't think that AMHR needs to do something just for the sake of doing it the same as AMHR.

While I agree with you, I don't want to even own a stallion if he doesn't have 2 testicles, there are many people out there that feel as long as he has one they will breed him, and some even try to show them. AMHA requires a vet check to try to attempt to keep those horses from being shown. It is not entirely fool proof, I'm sure people find ways to cheat, but it certainly cuts down on the number of horses with one or no testicles that are shown. My other reason for believing there should be a vet inspection certificate is for safety! Most stallion do not like their testicles felt and I've seen some even kick if someone leans over to look near that area. A vet certificate keeps all the judges safe and allows them to assume a senior stallion has his testicles.

As far as expense... it should cost you nothing, or close to nothing. Don't call the vet out just to do a testicle check. When he comes to do coggins and health papers and you are already paying a farm call and exam fee, have him sign the form for his testicles. Most vets don't charger for that. I have had 1 vet ever charge me for that and he only charged $10. AMHA does not charge anything to file the form.

 

[Minimor]

Nope, even with other work on the farm, there would still be the $42 exam fee--if the vet has to look at the horse, the $42 fee applies.

Hmmm. I train mine to accept being touched everywhere, including there. In fact they like being scratched there so feeling them up generally isn't a problem.

I would be quite horrified and deeply ashamed of the horse if one of mine ever offered to kick someone merely for looking!!

 

[Versatility Farm & Training]

Nope, even with other work on the farm, there would still be the $42 exam fee--if the vet has to look at the horse, the $42 fee applies.

Hmmm. I train mine to accept being touched everywhere, including there. In fact they like being scratched there so feeling them up generally isn't a problem.

I would be quite horrified and deeply ashamed of the horse if one of mine ever offered to kick someone merely for looking!!

Is that a $42 exam fee for and exam to get the health papers, and another $42 exam fee to look at the testicles? If so that's an expensive vet!

Not many people take the time like you to get horses to accept being touched around their testicles I'm sure there are many people that work with there horses to be touched all over, but never think of touching genitals. I haven't seen many kick just from looking just a handful, a horse or 2 that hadn't been handled hardly at all so its spooked by someone squating down. Or I did have one client horse that was obviously abused by a previous owner or trainer. I've had several that don't mind me reaching down and feeling at all, but when a vet does they kick. Either they don't trust strangers, or its because I am a woman and they are not used to being handled by men. Either way, I wouldn't want to be a judge having to check and hoping the horse has been handled and worked with about it, but not really knowing how its going to react. Its hard to trust your safety to horses/handlers you don't know.

 

[Minimor]

Oh, i'm sorry, I wasn't specific enough--up here we generally don't do coggins or health papers unless the horse is going to be going across the US border--pretty much no one does since they aren't required otherwise. Coggins and health papers run around $115 for one horse, $75 for each additional one, so people don't have it done unless it is necessary.

Huh, that's interesting. My horses get handled by no one but me, they never even see a man unless it's at a show or the vet comes out for a gelding party, and he still has no trouble copping a feel on any of them when he confirms for himself that both are there--which he almost always does before giving the sedative to start the surgery.

Doesn't matter--bottom line is I won't be putting out money for any testicle certificates.

 

[kaykay]

I have shown at many local AMHR shows where bites are checked, not every show but many shows do.

 

[ruffian]

IMO teeth should be checked on mares and stallions - breeding animals - at shows. I like the test. certificate because just because your horse submits to be handled there does not mean he would accept it from someone else, especially in a ring full of stallions.

Plus in the smaller sizes - 28" and under, it's pretty hard for a judge to get down and check every animal.