How to decide what to breed?

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TMR

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Since I have yet to see the perfect horse ( except maybe Liberty's Miss Kentucky
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: ) , how does everyone decide who is acceptable to breed. I know its everyones own personal choice, but I have seen National Halter Champions over the years that have at least one if not many faults. So should they not be bred?

If you breed for driving horses then your preference with be more on stride, but if you are purely into halter then it seems its more about head and neck and refinement. A gorgeous horse that has no hock action and stride would be useless in a driving program, but a nice moving horse with an average head and possibly slightly cowhocked would be useless in a halter program. Let alone the discussion in type, do you like the quarter horse look, or the arab look, or maybe the draft look. I know this is maybe extreme, but with all the discussions lately it has me wondering. If we don't breed anything that has a fault, who would you breed. I have been in the minis for 15 years and in those 15 years I have seen the fads come and go and also watched the breed as a whole come a long way with alot of imperfect horses that seem to improve every year. I always called it selective breeding, but as critical as it seems some are here, I wonder how we possibly find anything good enough to breed and how have we come so far.

Sorry for my rambling and I hope this makes some sense, but my question is what faults are acceptable and how do you decide for your particular program?

Donna Treiber
 
Since I have yet to see the perfect horse ( except maybe Liberty's Miss Kentucky
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: ) , how does everyone decide who is acceptable to breed. I know its everyones own personal choice, but I have seen National Halter Champions over the years that have at least one if not many faults. So should they not be bred?

If you breed for driving horses then your preference with be more on stride, but if you are purely into halter then it seems its more about head and neck and refinement. A gorgeous horse that has no hock action and stride would be useless in a driving program, but a nice moving horse with an average head and possibly slightly cowhocked would be useless in a halter program. Let alone the discussion in type, do you like the quarter horse look, or the arab look, or maybe the draft look. I know this is maybe extreme, but with all the discussions lately it has me wondering. If we don't breed anything that has a fault, who would you breed. I have been in the minis for 15 years and in those 15 years I have seen the fads come and go and also watched the breed as a whole come a long way with alot of imperfect horses that seem to improve every year. I always called it selective breeding, but as critical as it seems some are here, I wonder how we possibly find anything good enough to breed and how have we come so far.

Sorry for my rambling and I hope this makes some sense, but my question is what faults are acceptable and how do you decide for your particular program?

Donna Treiber
I think your post makes a LOT of sense...and I feel pretty much the same way.
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Everyone has their own ideas on what they want to breed for. Long-legged & tall...small & refined...high action...pretty heads....Arab look....QH look...etc., etc. As long as they are "correct" in basic conformation...no one type is better than another.

I personally breed what "I" like....whether or not it is the current "trend" in the showring.

I like the little guys....under 30", altho mine range from 27" to 33".

I like my Minis to have wonderful dispositions, hooky necks & high tailsets.

I also love, and breed for, splashy patterned pintos (Frame Overos & Toveros).

I am a devote head lover too...I like dishy Arab "type" heads with big, wide-set eyes & short head tapering to a small muzzle.

Straight legs & good bites go without being said in ANY breeding program!
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Now are you going to get ALL of this in one horse? Probably not. But if you are crossing the right horses with each other & producing better & better foals each year...and getting closer to your goal...you are on the right track!
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Myself, I go for horses that complement each other as best as I can determine, have good temperaments and will be correct (I hope).

There is no perfect horse, be it big or small.

I also try to determine if the horse, even the worst case scenario, will be something saleable or desirable, and if not, am I prepared to provide for that eventuality. (such as a dwarf or other deformity which would make it unsuitable even to the average person as a pet)

I aim for show and breeding quality, and usually settle for a good, solid pleasure and performance horse.

I see no need to produce horses that are in the "dime a dozen" category as in poorly proportioned, coarse, with very obvious flaws that are extreme in nature. I am not saying MY horses are perfect. They are not. What I do is to find the best match for them to breed out the things that are not perfect.

Liz M.
 
you know you bring up the catch 22 with breeding :)

I have seen many a National Champion that I would not use in my program - every horse has faults every one of them it is just a matter of what fault can you live with and that changes for everyone.

The horse who wins IMO isnt always about no faults or even the best horse in the class often it is about the horse who is decent and has the most presence

Some will opt for a beautiful head and a weaker hip, some the opposite some prefer refined and will accept toeing out or cowhocked.

Me I try to breed what appeals to my eye and yet continue to educate myself with the industry and the changes. Take what I like and incorperate it into my program
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I will not breed until I can afford MY ideal. I refuse to look for horses I can afford now and breed them hoping for luck of the draw.

No horse is perfect, but some are closer than others. I see the faults in my dream horses, but their faults do not affect their soundness or overall beauty. I would add that my ideal horse can hold his or her own in both performance and at halter.

Needless to say, it will be awhile before I can afford a horse that I would breed. I love and am proud of the horses that I have, but the world is not crying for their offspring (well...I have had a few who wish I hadn't gelded Mingus)

I don't understand this need to breed at all costs. There are too many unwanted horses out there, so I feel no urgent need to make more. Too many people want foals so badly that they will make do with what they can afford, but until I can afford a horse that I feel NEEDS to be bred (for example, the likes of Prince and Geshan and some of the mini Shetlands out there), then I will remain a non-breeder.

I don't mean this as an insult to anyone's horses, but I live my life wearing those rose-colored glasses in my own little la-la-land, and I have no intention of taking them off or moving...
 
I believe in breeding for what I like, not whatever the current fad is. Ideally I would like to have a wonderful halter horse that excels in harness as well, but I will sacrifice perfect halter conformation for good movement.

I want a pretty head but if the horse has desirable traits otherwise I will settle for a plainer head. I will not accept an off bite, not at all.

I want a long, well shaped, well set on neck. I will take an "okay" neck that is well shaped & well set on, but could be a little longer--as long as it's not a really thick, coarse neck.

I'd like a tabletop topline with a nice long croup. I will accept a more rounded croup, but absolutely won't have a very short hip that tilts upward from loin to dock! A hip that is slightly shorter than I consider ideal I will accept provided it's not a weak hip, with straight, thin stifles. I absolutely will not accept stifles that have any tendency to lock or catch.

Straight legs--well, I'll take hind legs that are a little bit cowhocked (just a little!) but I don't want them if they are bowlegged.

The horse must be good moving--must use himself well and have good knee and hock flexion, good extension, be light on his feet.

He must also "carry his tail". A few horses keep their tails clamped to their butt when they are moving, and I don't go for that at all.

Temperament--I do want good temperament, but I don't like them too quiet. I like them HOT--not nervous hot, but hot as in lots of "go" (there is a difference in those two types of "hot"!) I like them to have ATTITUDE.

Yep, I breed for what I like and the above is a partial list of my likes & dislikes. No horse is perfect, but some less-than-perfect traits are acceptable, others are not, and I have my little checklist that I run through when I look at a horse. Since I'm really not breeding for sale, the important thing is that I like the horses. That way I can keep them all & be happy with my herd!
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Subjects with no definite answer always arouse such passions. Like any debatable, controversial subject, it pretty much comes down to the individual person's beliefs, ethics, life experiences, and knowledge.

The more educated and experienced you are, I think you will find you "raise the bar" on your own expectations of a breeding animal.

A person who is ignorant, naive, or new will not have the same goals as someone who has been in the breed a long time and is competitive enough to hold their horses against others at the National (or worldwide) level. Once you start appreciating a TRUE well-bred animal, the less likely you will probably condone breeding pet-quality or unregistered animals. I think that's just the basic facts of life as I see it.

My personal feeling is that a breeder should find the BEST horses they can afford.

I cannot afford super-expensive horses, that are probably worth the price tag, and much higher quality than the horses I have. I have to be patient and find those diamonds in the rough that are good prices. I value a good horse.

Here is an excerpt from my article on my website on the subject

Breeding animals is an art form. Not only must the breeder be able to carefully evaluate the mare and stallion and resist "barn blindness" but they must also be aware of genetics and pedigree. The attempt is made to improve on both parents... but to begin with, both parents must be excellent examples of their breed. You can improve upon a pet-quality animal, but it is less likely the offspring will be an exemplary example of the breed. It is common that many breeders think they can just breed "pet quality" animals... but I do not consider that to be a very responsible mind set. Even two superior animals can produce a "pet quality" offspring... and that is where the "pets" should come from. There are already so many nice pet quality minis out there that it is selfish to purposefully create more.

Another common mistake that people make when they breed minis is the misconception that they can make money. It is a common adage in the horse world that "to make a little money with horses, you need to start with a LOT of money!" Even the foals out of exceptional stock will rarely command high prices if the breeder does not spend a lot of money showing, promoting, and advertising their animals to begin with. It costs a lot to care for a mare in foal, to care for her and her foal's veterinary needs, and to advertise the sale of the foal. If you skimp on the care of the mare and foal, you may make a little more money, but you would not be considered an ethical or responsible breeder! And what happens if that foal you bred does not sell right away? What if it's a year, two years, or ten years until a buyer comes along? You must be responsible to spend the money to care for that animal.

Many people breed for sentimental reasons. Perhaps they just love their mare or stallion to death, and they just want another one exactly like them... in case the beloved animal dies or so they have two or just to see what they have. In this case, the breeder may be barn blind, and ignore the fact that their beloved animal has something wrong genetically like bad stifles, overbite, or poor conformation. This is also not the best choice to make, because there is no guarantee that the resulting foal will look or act anything like their beloved parent(s). A foal will not "immortalize" their parents. It is also very possible that the beloved mare may die during a difficult pregnancy, and that by breeding her they are actually placing her in risk.

I feel one of the best breeding programs a person can have is to breed for exceptional offspring that they will want to retain for their breeding program. Naturally, not every cross they try will result in a horse that is valuable to their program, but that horse should be exceptional enough that it may fit into someone else's program. A breeder should strive to have a majority of their stock "home bred". This will allow the breeder to know as much information as possible about the genetic history of the horses. Since the breeder is breeding for themselves, there is no motive to breed "just to sell the babies." Not every foal a breeder breeds will sell instantly, and a responsible breeder must be prepared to care for every animal they breed for the rest of it's life. Even a breeder "breeding for themselves" will have pet quality animals arise, or will have an excess of colts to sell. This is where a breeder should be making their money from selling foals. Occasionally a high-quality offspring may be sold to a show home, which is a good form of advertising for the breeder.

To help create a strong breeding program, even if it is a single foal you plan to breed... the key is PLANNING. Decide what exactly you are breeding for. No breeder will ever create a "perfect" animal... but they can get close to achieving a reasonable goal. As a breeder, are you going to attempt to breed the best driving animals, or animals that are best conformed for Halter? Maybe it is a little more specific... maybe you want to breed halter quality, arabian-type leopard appaloosas. Whatever it is... select the very best stock to start with that you can afford. It is probably best to start out with less, higher quality animals than to stretch your dollar to buy more, mediocre quality animals. Do be careful when breeding for color, as it becomes easier to ignore structural faults in favor of color, which is one of the least important qualities.

What are good qualities in a breeding animal? Temperament is commonly stated, although desired temperament will vary, as some people like friendly, calm animals for children, yet other people prefer a hot, fiery show horse. Certainly conformation plays an important role for creating an attractive, healthy animal that can withstand performance demands. Genetic soundness is also important in miniatures, as bad bites, dwarfism, and locking stifles are common. Although some people feel that pedigree is not very important, and that judges never see a horse's papers... I feel pedigree is somewhat important to consider in a breeding animal because pedigree gives the breeder some knowledge of a horse's genetics and predictability. A good pedigree also makes the resulting foals more attractive and "valuable" to a buyer. A show record is also helpful on a breeding animal for the same reasons. However, pedigree and a show record cannot guarantee excellent breeding ability. A registered horse that closely follows the breed standard is important though! There are few homes for grade horses that do not fit the breed standard. I believe it is also important for a responsible breeder to consider the health of their animal... and not to breed mares before they are three or stallions before they are two or even three. Just because they CAN be bred does not mean they SHOULD be bred.:
 
I just sit here and do my own thing.

I suppose it's my quarter horse performance background that makes me want to breed for a "using" horse. A horse that is not only pretty to the eye, but a horse that can do more than just stand there looking gorgeous. In the quarter horse world, we have "lead 'em and feed 'em" horses. Those are strictly halter horses and they couldn't move to get out of their own way. Pretty is as pretty does, but that's not enough for me. I want it all.

I look at my miniatures like if they were all 4 feet taller, I'd have to ride them.

I like a versitile horse. He has to MOVE. He has to like to work and do stuff. He can't be grumpy. He must be willing to rock and roll.

And I don't like weenies either. Horses that are bugged-eyed and bred to jump out of their skin over nothing, nah, that's stupid, not my style. They have to have a good mind and be brave and SANE.

When my round pen was up, we jumped, did obstacles, pivots, side passes, and went hiking and backpacking up the hunting trails. That's a using horse. That's what I like. That's what I breed for.

Athletes in miniature. And dang purdy ones too. Go look at my website. Everything there can move and be pretty about it.
 
I was lucky when I bought my stallion. I knew very little about the mini world! I knew he was a nice enough horse, but didnt know what "type" was acceptible in mini's. Watching him grow I have found a few small faults in him that i would rather he not have. Yet, when I show him he gets so much positive attention that is seems nobody else is aware of them! I actually have a bad habit of picking my horses to bits, but i suppose its better than being blinded to it! I will still breed from him, as his overall confirmation is great, and his temperament is also a ++. and I am making sure I do not cross him with a mare that has the same faults, and was very particular when shopping for his new girlfriend.
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The most important thing in my breeding program is Temperament, and a bit of Personality. without that to me the horse is worth nothing!

I guess as said before, its what faults you can live with, or believe you can "fix" with the right cross. some day you will just come across a horse you absolutely adore, and is perfect except for one small thing - and you will overlook it as in your eyes, they are perfect in every other way. and someone else will see the same horse, but that one fault will be ALL they see!
 
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Number one there are no perfect horses, every horse has faults. So as a breeder I have to decide what faults I will accept and what I wont. Then i have to figure out what crosses work and what crosses dont

here are just some of the Faults I will not accept

Bad bite

Over at the knee

sickle hocked

Overly short neck

small hipped

pig eyed

stifle problems

Bad temperment

I breed for what I like and what my goal is because im the one that has to look at them everyday lol. I want big hips, straight legs, pretty heads, good length of neck and powerful movement. I do show mine in halter and as they mature driving.

I dont think its an either or proposition. (halter vs performance) Yes its hard but there are quite a few horses out there that can show in halter and driving. Crunch our Sr stallion has a hall of fame in halter and now he will be showing in CP driving. So well see how it goes!
 
IMO --- its personal preference and personal opinion when you get down to it.
 
First off...I want to say that I don't pick on the studs :bgrin ...I'm AS choosey with how a breeding mare should be. No point in having the perfect boy if the girl is second class after all it takes two to tango.
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In a stallion I look for the type that I like. I love the more Celtic/Iberian type (pre-Andalusian in miniature) If he fits the type then he MUST fit ALL of these (not just 99% but 100%)

He must have...

A PERFECT bite.

Straight legs on ALL four. No toeing out, being over and the knee, cow hocks etc. on any leg.

Must have the correct angle in his hooves...no trace of being club footed.

Of course he must have the overall conformation balance...everything must flow together so overall he is pleasing to look at.

Oh course a pretty head, nice eyes.

He must have an excellent disposition. I don't want people to even know he's a stud.

He must be registered AND come from top class bloodlines.

And finally...if he is perfect in all of these aspects...he must prove himself in his offspring.
 
I definately agree that this is all about what YOU like to look at. And I also agree that it's not all the stallion. To me the mare is 70% of the equation as she raises the foal. I don't own a stallion, because my mares are all so different in type, I prefer to shop around and find the right man for each lady
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I like a using horse, coming from a dressage background, I like them to move out! Forward, forward, forward! I like them to use their whole shoulder, throw those feet out! A pretty head doesn't matter to me, but it's icing on the cake! I feel that it's easier to breed in a good head than a nice big hip. A nice big hip is important to me in my breeding animals. I have a gelding that is weak in the hip, notice I said gelding
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: , but man can he tuck and go!! With his tail flipped up over his back and those front feet flying. But I wouldn't breed with him because of that hip. I want a horse with a nice length of neck and a clean throatlatch. Since I'm driving they have to be able to tuck that head to their chest. A horse with a short neck combined with a heavy throatlatch just can not do that. When a horse like that tucks, they can't breathe. All the heaviness around the throatlatch cuts off the air... Now you can have a horse with a short neck and a clean throatlatch and they can tuck and go. But for a breeding animal I want some length of neck. I don't mind a cow hocked horse, because I'm driving and I feel they can dig in and move better a little cow hocked. But I don't like the twisting back legs, or flailing about with either the fronts or the hinds. A perfect bite is very important to me. That's just a personal thing. I like a big soft eye that sits low on the head. I just think they look prettier that way. You can disguise a plain head better if they have a big eye...

Again these are all my opinion. These are things that I value in my breeding stock. And yes, all my mares have faults, I just know them and will do my best to breed to stallions that I think will help those faults...
 
I agree with most of the posters here...there are some faults that common sense tells us to stay away from, here is my list:

 


Cryptorchid (stallion)



Bad mouth (over or underbite)



Extreme cow hocks or knock knees



High in the rear end



Ewe necked



Narrow in the chest



Extreme length of body


 


Things that impress me in breeding stock:



Small arabian type head with large prominent eyes



long, straight legs



level topline



length of neck and arch


 


Our breeding program does not breed for specific color, rather on horses that complement each other. Everyone is right, there is NO perfect horse. All of them have some faults but our goal should be "the most closely resembling the standard of perfection". :aktion033:
 
In any breeding program I think the main concern should be breeding animals that are GENETICALLY healthy, have good SOUND/SANE temperament and NO major faults.

That being said, I know a Scottish Terrier breeder, who is now a judge, the last time I spoke with her she'd had 7 litters. Of those 7, 6 of the bitches had to be C-sectioned because they were champions and too short backed to push the puppies out. The 7th bitch was more "pet" quality and naturally delivered a very nice, quality litter. She'd been breeding for what would win in the show ring and created her own problem. As had several other breeders.

Me personally, I don't mind a mare who is moderate to slightly longer in the barrel and back. I also perfer one who is a little heavier in bone and body. I like a broodmare to be, well "broody" lol. I suspect these super refined fillies and mares I've seen winning in the show ring are going to have a heck of a time foaling. This being said I prefer horses that have more of an old style Morgan look going on. They are pretty movers with lots of eye appeal.
 

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