Hardshipping "sale"

[disneyhorse]

I think a good horse is a good horse, regardless of papers. People get way too worked up about what other people think... When all that really matters is what you yourself likes.

I have to admit... If I am wanting a horse for potential breeding purposes... Especially a stallion... It really should be double registered. Either AMHA/amhr, or amhr/ASPC. However, I've seenAMAZING single registered horses... I don't think that any of these "Shetland breeders" would tell you that a high quality AMHR only horse is less of a horse than a poor quality double registered Shetland.

Honestly, when I went shopping for my next horse, I wanted either an amhr or ASPC registered horse. I ended up with an AHHS registered hackney pony! I am hoping to register him ASPR so I can stay with this pony club, but a good horse is a good horse! Papers are not what makes the horse, the breeders reputation, nor success in the show ring.

 

[frostedpineminis]

I do not register under AMHR to promote that shetland is better than mini, I think that for me it is important to have my minis registered in AMHA and AMHR for 2 reasons. One being that if I have a foal that outgrows its AMHA papers it is still registered and has papers to follow it through its life for records, age, history ect and 2 being that where ever one of my foals go, they have more opportunity to show and use that mini if it has both AMHA and AMHR shows to choose from because by the sounds of it, different regions tend to be more one sided as per what organization that they show under, So I feel with double registered foals, I am giving them a better chance. just my opinion anyway

 

[weerunner]

Just looking around in my area, I find that a double registered horse is worth slightly more and also if you have a double registered breeding animal and you are looking for a mate, you can look at all minis and choose the best one without having to worry about what it is registered in. That is the reason I want all mine double registered. I didn't know there would be controversy about this. I'm going to do all 4 of my AMHA broodmares as long as the bank account can handle it.

 

[LaVern]

In todays miniature market you NEED those AMHR papers. You might want them double. Great, But we have worked so hard and done such a good job that if you don't have AMHR papers, you basically are very limited.So now that they are finally valuable and the AMHR breeder can finally say, Yes it was all worth while, why start giving them away? And making those papers worthless.

Why can't we get used to holding our heads up and be proud of what we have done? Maybe we area getting too uppidy and we must be put back in our place.

 

[kaykay]

My problem has been with Shetland breeders who get on this forum and promote the attitude that Shetlands are so superior to Minis and that if you want your horses to be able to compete that you just MUST introduce Shetland into your breeding program.

I have only seen a couple people post that and many of them were not "Shetland" breeders but miniature breeders that own ASPC/AMHR horses. I know I personally would never say that. Everyone should own and breed what they want.

I do think change can be made but I am the eternal optimist. For years I have seen people post that they want the AMHR studbook closed. But to date I have never seen a rule proposal submitted at convention to close it.

And not the word foundation seal for the miniatures. Straight -Certified- whatever, but our own word at least. But it is never going to happen anyway, so who cares.

Submit a rule proposal that any AMHR registered miniature horse with 4 generations or AMHR only breeding get "Certified" on its papers. Or maybe a seal?

Kay

 

[LaVern]

Kay Kay, If we put" AMHR Only" on the papers I'll have to go back into counseling. (Breathe deep, breathe) Had an email from someone with a good idea. AMHR Heritage Miniature Horse. Looked it up and means ancestry- pedigree. I thought that was a good one.

 

[LaVern]

I don't think the people that wanted the hardship fee dropped, wrote a proposal,(maybe). I have been down that route before. What you have do is whine and cry and squeak and get to be good buddies of some director that other directors need a favor from. I won't play the political game, but I will whine on Little Beginnings.

 

[kaprikorn]

Yippee !!! I had everything together to AMHR my 3 AMHA only mares but was looking at the $$ and sighed. . . now I can do them. . .one a month !!! What a nice Christmans present from AMHR !! Now everyone will be AHMA/AMHR !!

 

[targetsmom]

I wonder how many of the minis that are going to be hardshipped into AMHR through this SALE (all it is, is a lowering of the price, right? Not a NEW RULE?) are ones who could have been AMHR registered except for a slip-up in paper work? I know the mare we plan to hardship was supposed to come with R papers, but reminders and pleading have done no good in 7 years. So being able to hardship her for $100 seems worth it. And I think the gelding might have had R papers too, as I am pretty sure at least the sire or dam - if not both - were R registered. And neither will be bred, so it isn't like we will be diluting AMHR blood somehow.

Why do I think it is worth it?

1) I can then show these minis in R shows, where I plan to show more this year anyway.

2) I can use these minis for the Amateur Excellence Award program; or I can get CREDIT now for using them, as they have been used all along.

3) Then ALL our minis - not just our breeding stock - will be triple registered (A/R/PtHA).

 

[kaykay]

Lavern I suspect dropping the fees was a board action. To know who initiated it we would have to see the board minutes and I do not believe they are posted yet. Once those are published on the website you should be able to see what Director submitted it.

Probably this was done to get new members and to spread some good will in this tough economy. For sure I think they are trying to get AMHA members to come (back?) to AMHR.

I guess I still believe in the system. You submit a rule proposal to the AMHR committee. If it passes them, it goes to convention where any member can vote on it. If it passes there the board usually always approves it because it doesnt look good to squash a proposal members voted to pass.

Now if you do all of that and it doesnt pass then you can whine and vent LOL.

When I went to convention in 2009 there was a proposal to let unregistered geldings hardship in. I was vehemently opposed as I felt it was a slap in the face to every breeder that sells AMHR registered geldings. I also felt that our geldings sell low enough now so why cheapen it further. So I got up and gave my speech and voted no. It was defeated.

Like it or not this is how our association works. I like to think its more than politics but maybe I am just an idiot.

The bad thing is many of us cannot attend convention every year to have our voices heard but its surely worth going if you can make it.

 

[Minimor]

My problem has been with Shetland breeders who get on this forum and promote the attitude that Shetlands are so superior to Minis and that if you want your horses to be able to compete that you just MUST introduce Shetland into your breeding program. Well, that is NOT what I want. I don't want Morgans, I don't want Walking Horses, I don't want Quarter Horses, and I don't want Shetlands. I want MINIATURES! So, with my need to cut expenses and with this prevailing attitude that you just must have Shetland in your program in order to be competitive, I dropped my AMHR membership in 2011. Why should I waste that money when so many of the R breeders have adopted the attitude that if it isn't Shetland, it just isn't any good?

I haven't seen so many Shetland breeders saying that one needs Shetland breeding to be competitive--the ones I've heard saying that are mostly the AMHR Nationals EXHIBITORS, many of whom are not breeders at all. And, as Kay said, also the Miniature breeders who have turned their programs to the ASPC/AMHR horses.

So, if someone were going to propose a "AMHR Certified" seal for Minis that have 4 generations of AMHR registration....would that include those Minis that have been AMHR "forever" on their pedigrees but who also have ASPC registration? Not everyone threw away their ASPC papers when they moved their ponies into the newly formed AMHR--so does that make those ASPC/AMHR Minis less Mini than those that had their ASPC papers thrown away 5 generations ago? I suppose maybe if the ASPC papers no longer exist one can pretend that ones horses are not ponies?

I guess I don't see what a Certified seal really means in terms of value. A good horse is a good horse, no matter if it has an AMHR Certified seal or if it doesn't, no matter if it has ASPC papers or if it doesn't. Sometimes one cannot even guess if the horse is Mini or Shetland if one doesn't see the papers. I have two Minis here--no ASPC registered ponies in the pedigree for generations--that could easily pass for ponies. If I found pony papers to put on them and brought them out in the show ring as Shetlands no one would question it--no one would look at them and say NO WAY that is a pony! Likewise if I brought them out and showed them AMHR it's very likely people would ask if those are Shetlands. Both qualify for LaVern's "Certified" designation, but I don't see why they would ever need it. They are what they are & no seal or lack of a seal will change anything for them.

 

[Songcatcher]

I wonder how many of the minis that are going to be hardshipped into AMHR through this SALE (all it is, is a lowering of the price, right? Not a NEW RULE?) are ones who could have been AMHR registered except for a slip-up in paper work? I know the mare we plan to hardship was supposed to come with R papers, but reminders and pleading have done no good in 7 years. So being able to hardship her for $100 seems worth it. And I think the gelding might have had R papers too, as I am pretty sure at least the sire or dam - if not both - were R registered.

If I'm reading you right, you are asking if a horse that was already R registered but papers lost/not transfered can be hardshipped from its A papers??? The answer is "NO"! I tried that once. AMHR sent the papers back with an explanation that the horse was already registered. Luckily, the former owner signed an affidavit for me that the original papers were lost and signed a transfer. If pleading over 7 years has done you no good, I'm afraid you are out of luck.

 

[targetsmom]

Thanks for the info Songcatcher... I guess I will be calling AMHR next week to find out what my options are.

 

[LaVern]

Minimor, that sure would be my thinking. As soon as all the horses on the papers were reg. AMHR horses that horse becomes an AMHR Heritage Miniature. You can work for years and breed into it using all AMHR stock or buy one. But, you can't just hardship into it.

 

[Minimor]

But what does it then get you? Do you think people are going to buy horses simply because they have a Heritage seal, or are they going to buy what they like regardless if the horse has the Heritage designation or not?

And I assume that there will be an extra fee for the office to research the pedigree and put the Heritage designation on the papers? (Unless the horse has both parents that are already Heritage designated, then the horse would automatically get the designation himself?)

 

[LaVern]

It is not only what I get, but what other AMHR breeders and the AMHR horses get. Validation and the respect we deserve. It says you stuck to it and played it straight with in our own registry. I don't think would affect prices at all and it would not affect the shows.

Office price, it shouldn't cost anymore than checking stuff for a show or putting hall of fame or other stuff.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Kay Kay, If we put" AMHR Only" on the papers I'll have to go back into counseling. (Breathe deep, breathe) Had an email from someone with a good idea. AMHR Heritage Miniature Horse. Looked it up and means ancestry- pedigree. I thought that was a good one.

I like the sound of that. I think it would be a great idea, I don't know how it could affect the show ring, I would like to see this as a whole new divison. If the ASPC can have Foundation, why can't we? AMHR/ASPC horses have made such a huge impact we do need a different halter class. But I just don't know how it can affect the shows. Defintelly needs planning. I also don't think this can happen unless we close the registry. I just don't see the value of doing this without looking into the future. We just can't stick a seal on papers for any reason. Close the registry, try and become a breed, then ask for this and I can see it taking the miniature horses to a whole new level.

Those who feel so strongly against the ASPC movement with the miniatures get together and start a program. Get more members involved and try to close the registry. Thats the only way you can do it. I've tried to do this before trying to get a whole new division I received mix feelings but no one was willing to help me so I gave up and have now accepted the ASPC/AMHR horses. But I would still like to see a new divison for the minis.

As to why you should support AMHR, you don't have to. Heck I even was going to stop AMHR and go to AMHA, but you know what I took a deap breath and question myself. I enjoy showing in my club, the people are great, I enjoy my R minis, I don't care what papers they have, if I enjoy it I'll keep doing it. If you don't then go somewhere else. I'll agree you are limiting yourself, I will not buy AMHA only horses anymore. I'll buy better quality horses thats all, the breed has envolved better. If you want the "straight" miniatures they are out there, with no shetland blood and they are nice ones out there. There will always be a market for AMHR only horses.

Really all I would like to see and I don't see this as too much to ask is add a "foundation", "draft", "performance" or whatever you want to call it halter class for older style minis. If I'm honest with myself a whole new divison may be uncessary, but I really think a type halter class needs to be added.

 

[kaykay]

Those who feel so strongly against the ASPC movement with the miniatures get together and start a program. Get more members involved and try to close the registry. Thats the only way you can do it. I've tried to do this before trying to get a whole new division I received mix feelings but no one was willing to help me so I gave up and have now accepted the ASPC/AMHR horses. But I would still like to see a new divison for the minis.

It doesnt have to be "against" ASPC. I have always been in favor or a (for lack of a better word) Foundation division for the minis.

But everyone can talk about it and wish for it but until someone takes the time to write it up and present it at convention it will go no where. I am not passionate enough about it to tackle it but surely someone here is?

Everything has to start somewhere. People could even pick the brains of the originators of the foundation Shetland division to get some tips.

But remember there will still be issues as we have in the foundation shetlands. Nothing is perfect for sure and nothing will ever answer all the problems.

 

[Jacki]

Kay wrote in part...

When I went to convention in 2009 there was a proposal to let unregistered geldings hardship in. I was vehemently opposed as I felt it was a slap in the face to every breeder that sells AMHR registered geldings. I also felt that our geldings sell low enough now so why cheapen it further. So I got up and gave my speech and voted no. It was defeated.

Kay touches on the reason I am not pleased with the 50% Off Sale on Hardshiping, I believe it was a short sided decision by the BOD, although it may bring in income now it will reduce income later. For every ASPC pony or AMHA horse that comes in to AMHR at the reduced fee it reduces the number that could or would have come in at some point at the full fee. So, it will take twice as many horses to raise the same amount of income. Perphaps they are banking on the fact that half price registrations (hardships) will produce residual income increases when their get are registered later on. Although this is true I don't believe this potential income later is worth the trade-off now.

The potential increase in AMHR registered horses now and their get later also has the effect of increasing supply, not a good move when prices are as depressed as they currently are. So those of us trying to sell AMHR registered horses could also have to deal with the flush of new competition in an already down market. If I was a shetland pony breeder or an AMHA breeder I may feel differently, I'd jump at the chance to take advantage of this sale. As a breeder of primarily AMHR registered miniature horses I see only an increase in supply coming my way.

I might feel differently about this had there been some discussion with the membership, had the BOD presented their thoughts we could have discussed it, considered others points of view, and then been more willing to accept the decision. I understand that the BOD has the right to adjust prices I just think this decision affects more than the price we pay it affects supply and the tone of what horses will be in the show ring. Had they gathered input from members it may have affected their decision.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]

 

[LaVern]

You guys are making this too hard. I'm not asking for classes or anything to change. Just call the 4 genrers. something.