For Those of You With Palominos...

[lcwallis]

Since I don't know that much about color.... Is Palomino a dominant color like Grey? I know we have a grey stallion and all but one of his foals have been silver dapple or grey. For those of you that breed a palamino color with other colors, do you usually get a light colored horse? Say if you breed with a black or sorrel horse is it most of the time light in color?

Thank you for your help...

Lynda

 

[ForeverFarma]

It's going to all depend on what you breed to- I have a palomino mare. I bought her last year bred to a stud that was Homozygous for black and Homozygous for agouti. Since the mare was red based and carried no agouti, according to color genetics, I was not going to get a solid black foal. The foal was going to be a black based bay, but if he got his mother's cream gene (which she is hetero for) I could possibly have gotten a buckskin, but my mare also carried a hetero silver gene, and my foal was born a bay silver. I can bred her to that same stud and all I will ever get is bay, buckskin, or bay silver.

being palomino doesn't mean that the foals will be light colored when born- if they get the cream gene the one parent, they possibly will be lighter, but you have other factors that will come into play as well.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Palomino is simply Red + Cream. Grey is not dominant, if a horse is h/Z grey it will sire 50% grey foals. The first 100 foals it sire may, by sheer coincidence, come out grey but this is just the luck of the draw!!

If the horse is Palomino it is h/Z for Cream and H/Z for Red, so, depending on what it is bred to, it has a 50/50 chance of throwing Cream and a 100% chance of adding red to the mix.

So, no, neither palomino nor grey are "dominant" it depends wholly on the zygosity of the animal .

 

[ohmt]

Rabbitsfizz, I was always taught that any gene that will show up over others in heterozygous form is considered dominant. So therefore, grey would be dominant as it will always show no matter the zygosity. So say you have a horse homozygous for grey...it's considered homozygous dominant. A horse homozygous for red is homozygous recessive as it is not a dominant gene. (Though technically red and grey are different as red is color and grey is pattern, but just using them to explain the difference)

Cream is dominant if heterozygous, except on a black based horse without agouti. (Smokey black).

A palomino is just red + one copy of cream. So a palomino will always pass on red which is recessive. It will pass on cream 50% of the time and it will always show unless on a black horse (no agouti). If you cross a palomino with sorrel/chestnut you have a 50% chance of getting sorrel/chestnut and 50% chance of getting palomino. Crossed with black it depends if the black is homozygous or heterozygous and if your palomino has agouti.

Now grey and silver are different. Grey is dominant and always shows like I said above. Silver only shows on a black based horse. So a sorrel/chestnut could have silver, but not show it. Your palomino could have silver and not show it.

 

[Double T]

Since I don't know that much about color.... Is Palomino a dominant color like Grey? I know we have a grey stallion and all but one of his foals have been silver dapple or grey. For those of you that breed a palamino color with other colors, do you usually get a light colored horse? Say if you breed with a black or sorrel horse is it most of the time light in color?

Thank you for your help...

Lynda

Palomino is a red based horse with one cream gene. Red is not a dominant gene. Red is recessive, black is dominant. For a red based horse to be red based they must carry two genes 'ee', while black will always show and can be either Ee or EE. The Cream gene is onen that if carried will show in some form, other than on black, as a smokey black can look regular black.

Grey is a gene that if carried will also always show, and it's so misleading to say I have a grey horse and if I breed it to this color what color will I get, becuase there is always going to be some other base color under that grey and that is where you need to start.

That said on your pally being as she's got two e's it's a given she'll pass the 'e' on, not depending on waht she's bred to, it can vary if the other parent will pass on another 'e' or a 'E'. Her cream gene is a 50/50 thing, she only carries one, so could pass it on, or may not. Same with the grey, if he just has one copy, a 50/50 deal. The luck of the draw. I've got a champagne mare, and have had two foals out of her. She only carries one Champagne gene, but for me both foals are Champagne. I just got lucky honestly.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

grey is pattern,

Not to be contradictory but grey is more a modifier (as are cream and silver) than it is a pattern.

 

[Latika]

Grey is defined as a "factor" - it isnt a colour in itself but a mask. A grey horse still carries the gene of its birth colour (red, black etc) and the grey gene sits on top masking it. - similar to the Dun Factor, which also sits ontop of the original colour of the horse.

A horse can be palomino AND grey.

Palomino is chestnut plus cream. So a Palomino horse has 50% chance of passing on the cream gene to its progeny, and 100% chance of passing on the red gene. (any other colour possibilities come from the other parent).

My pally stallion has had 4 live foals:

Black Mare = Bay Foal

Chestnut Mare = Chestnut Foal

Black Mare = Palomino Foal

Black/Brown Mare = Buckskin Foal

 

[targetsmom]

Palomino is a red based color so it can also HIDE modifiers such as agouti (that causes bay or buckskin) or the silver gene. And as I think was mentioned, a gray horse can be genetically any color or pattern, so unless you know what color he was before he turned gray or had him tested, he could be anything. In order to know what you might get crossing a palomino with a gray you need to know what color genes they carry, including the ones that don't show. If you find that out, there is a neat color calculator that shows all the possible color combinations possible for the resulting foal.

http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp

We have a gray stallion (only a yearling, so thinking ahead) who is genetically a silver bay tovero pinto carrying both the frame (LWO+) and tobiano genes. We know he is Ee because his sire is sorrel. We would like to breed him someday to a buckskin tobiano pinto (after making sure she is LWO-) and the color calculator indicates there are 80 color/pattern possibilities for the foal!!!

 

[Latika]

Palomino is a red based color so it can also HIDE modifiers such as agouti (that causes bay or buckskin) or the silver gene.

Palomino (or Red) cannot in itself hide modifyers.

Silver is a modifyer that only effects black hair on a horse, so bays & blacks are clearly effected, however as Red based horses have NO black markings there is no visible effects of silver on a red horse.

 

[Double T]

Palomino (or Red) cannot in itself hide modifyers.

Silver is a modifyer that only effects black hair on a horse, so bays & blacks are clearly effected, however as Red based horses have NO black markings there is no visible effects of silver on a red horse.

lol That's called hiding them as in they may be carried but aren't shown-and I agree with you, you can have a red based horse that does carry the bay or brown agouti (as ALL horses carry two agouti genes, but the familar aa that we referr to as non agouti, is really the black agouti rather than NO agouti), or a red based horse that carries the silver gene, and they don't show it, therefore they hide it. Further more, you could possibly go for generations of breeding before it does decide to pop up and show on a black based horse.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Yes, I agree, in everyday parlance, which we all here are using, Red hides Silver and Agouti, Black hides Cream etc.

Perhaps "masks" would be a better term?

Also OHMT, no I cannot agree.

Grey is not dominant, we are getting too technical here, and that is never a good thing when not on a technical, colour orientated, Forum.

Even on Equine Color I am pretty sure we would not agree with your terms. Maybe they are just a bit outdated, as opposed to inaccurate??

 

[ohmt]

Also OHMT, no I cannot agree.Grey is not dominant, we are getting too technical here, and that is never a good thing when not on a technical, colour orientated, Forum.

Even on Equine Color I am pretty sure we would not agree with your terms. Maybe they are just a bit outdated, as opposed to inaccurate??

Hmm...possibly. Maybe I should switch my major

grey is pattern,Not to be contradictory but grey is more a modifier (as are cream and silver) than it is a pattern.

Yes, that's what I meant, thank you! Sometimes I get on a roll and forget to proofread.

 

[ohmt]

Here's some info from UC Davis:

Gray is dominant, therefore a single copy of this gene will cause a horse to turn gray.

Cream: CCr is semi-dominant and dilutes red to yellow in single dose (palominos, buckskins, smoky blacks) and to pale cream in double dose (cremellos, perlinos, smoky cream). Cream dilution can have a very subtle effect on black pigment.

Red/Black: The dominant allele E produces black pigment in the coat. The recessive allele e produces red pigment.

Silver dilution is inherited as a dominant trait

So therefore, a palomino would be red which is homozygous recessive with one copy of cream which is semi-dominant. Pretty much what I said before.

Grey is dominant, silver is dominant but does not affect red pigment.

 

[Double T]

Yes, I agree, in everyday parlance, which we all here are using, Red hides Silver and Agouti, Black hides Cream etc.

Perhaps "masks" would be a better term?

Also OHMT, no I cannot agree.

Grey is not dominant, we are getting too technical here, and that is never a good thing when not on a technical, colour orientated, Forum.

Even on Equine Color I am pretty sure we would not agree with your terms. Maybe they are just a bit outdated, as opposed to inaccurate??

Rabitsfizz, can you explain why you don't think that grey is dominant? It is a gene that if carried, is going to be shown, no matter if a horse carries one or two copies, on any horse color. That to me says it's dominant and not able to be hidden.

Here is what Animal Genetics has to say about the gene:

Gray (Grey) is a modifier that, over time, causes depigmentation of the horses hair. Horses born with this modifier are born colored but gradually loose pigmentation and can become mostly white in 6-8 years. The vast majority of white horses are in fact horses that have fully grayed out. The Gray modifier is a fully dominant gene meaning a single copy of the gene will cause a visibly graying effect on the base coat. Horses homozygous for the mutation (GG) showed an increased rate of graying as well as more evenly distributed effects during the final stages of graying than a heterozygous gray horses (Gg).

Gray occurs in almost every breed although it is more common among a handfull of breeds. Different breeds of horses that commonly show this phenotype are Andalusian, Arabian, Connemara, Iclandic, Lipizzaner, New Forrest Pony, Shetland pony, Thoroughbred and Welsh.

Gray horses, especially horses that are homozygous for the gene, have an extremely high rate of dermal Melanomas (Melanoma Cancer). Research conducted in Sweden showed that 70-80% of gray horses age 15 and older have melanomas. Primary melanomas are generally benign but later metastasize to internal organs.

The genetic mutation that produces graying in horses was located in 2008 by researchers at Uppsala University in Sweden. The gray mutation is caused by a 4.6-kb duplication in intron 6 of STX17.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I am questioning the terminology, that is all.

To say that grey is "dominant" means, to most people, that grey is just that, dominant over other colours when, in fact h/Z grey is no more dominant than any other modifier/pattern.

The fact that it shows with only h/Z grey present is a different thing altogether.

So, technically it may be "dominant" but it is not actually dominant over other colours/patterns/ modifiers.

It reacts exactly the same way as anything else.

So grey is not dominant over, for example, red.

h/Z grey will still only give 50% grey.

It is only Dominant in the same way that Black is Dominant.

It is not dominant over other colours, merely Dominant in the scientific terminology.

 

[Double T]

I am questioning the terminology, that is all.

To say that grey is "dominant" means, to most people, that grey is just that, dominant over other colours when, in fact h/Z grey is no more dominant than any other modifier/pattern.

The fact that it shows with only h/Z grey present is a different thing altogether.

So, technically it may be "dominant" but it is not actually dominant over other colours/patterns/ modifiers.

It reacts exactly the same way as anything else.

So grey is not dominant over, for example, red.

h/Z grey will still only give 50% grey.

It is only Dominant in the same way that Black is Dominant.

It is not dominant over other colours, merely Dominant in the scientific terminology.

I guess it's because of the way the different labs code their stuff. To me, and the way I've been taught, dominant is a gene that if carried will show up. Such as Black over red, silver on black, and such. I think the way your trying to describe is as in passing onto the offspring, and your right, a Gg horse will just have a 50% chance of passing on that gray gene, just like a Ee horse would. But also I've been taught that a horse with only one gene is Heterozygous, and a horse with two of the same genes (like GG or EE) is Homozygous. Maybe the translation is getting lost vs the two countries, as I know a lot of stuff that we'd say or do here in the US can/will be taken a totally different way in England. (I once blew a raspberry at a VERY dear friend of mine that lives in London, and she took it as an insult when here it's used playfully like our LOL's are)

 

[rabbitsfizz]

OK, second attempt as this flipping forum ate my answer, YET AGAIN!!

I apologise for confusing the issue yesterday, my only explanation is that I was on new pain meds and, five minutes after posting, was crashed out in bed, fast asleep, so I am sorry about that!!

Anyway, you are talking about a dominant, as opposed to recessive, gene, but this is not to say that this colour/modifier/pattern is Dominant over all other colours/patterns /modifiers.

It will still only show up 50% of the time unless it is H/Z.

It is a simple dominant gene, but it is not Dominant over all others, (although, actually, I will have to check on whether or not it is simple!) not in the way the OP meant, anyway.

Grey shows up when it is h/Z, so does Black, so when it is present, it is expressed, regardless of zygosity.

Yes, we can agree on that.

Grey does not show up more than 50% of the time unless it is H/Z, it is not Dominant in that way.....

Is that any clearer?

Honestly, I am sorry, it seems to be OK inside my head, but when I get it out on the paper it does not seem to make a lot of sense.

Nothing new there, then

 

[lcwallis]

I have my answer..... Thanks everyone.... I don't know about anyone else and I don't know the scientific information on color but from experience.... We've bred our grey stallion the past 4 years to the following color mares: Black, Sorrel, Buckskin, Black and White pinto, Silver Bay.... Every foal each year has been grey except one which was sorrel.... I just didn't want to buy a palomino stud and have all the foals turn out light colored. I like variety...

Thanks again

 

[Latika]

Glad you have the answer you were looking for Icwallis.

I have to say I dont agree with people saying that red hides silver - red in itself has no power to hide anything, red is red. the fact that silver cant be physically seen on red can seem like red hides it, but silver is the modifyer, not red, red does nothing but be red, silver hides itself!

(anyone confuse yet? )

 

[Double T]

For those wanting to know possible color options when you breed two horses, seriously play with this little calculator. It will give you the possabilities and honestly if you study the possibilities in the boxes at the top, it kind of helps you learn about the color genetics. With the exception of a handful of colors every horse color and pattern is listed I think, but appy.

http://www.animalgenetics.us/CCalculator1.asp