But I also think that once this presence is removed from the dogs life, that the dog can very well revert to the problem & sometimes dangerous behavior. not what everyone sees. I guess the big question is, what happens when he leaves?
We tend to consider dog trainers training dogs only. Any trainer worth their salt will tell you that 90% of their effort goes into training the human. Dogs learn and respond with the proper motivation tailored to that individual dog very quickly. Its us humans wearing the dunce cap.... You might be the best dog trainer in the world but if you can't apply the same efforts and techniques to the human then you're not a trainer and should only receive 10% pay for your incomplete efforts IMO. Teach a person to fish................
I like Victoria Stillwells training methods. Like horses, I think that dogs have a language & once we learn the language, their body behavior & recognize that active dogs are usually happier dogs then we have less behavior problems.
I believe that you think correctly. The dog is talking all the time. Fluency on our part is always the sticky wicket eh? I have found that the busiest (ie. work) dogs are the brightest, stable and happiest of dawgs.
Bb
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- Thread starter Minimor
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Leeana
Well-Known Member
Its a difference of opinions...if marty does not agree with you, or i do not agree with you / others opinions then please accept that instead of continueing to challenge and prove us wrong. I have watched his show from the beginning, i see a very passionate trainer who gets the job done, totally fine in my book. I do not in any way see what he does as dangerous, harmfull or abusive, then agian we all have different views on what all three of those things are.
How can you take my linking to the concerned opinions of highly educated experts in the field of animal behavior as a challenge?
"I do not in any way see what he does as dangerous, harmfull or abusive, then agian we all have different views on what all three of those things are." Leeana
This is certainly true, but I mostly concern myself with how DOGS (and other animals) view what people do to them. The body language of the dogs in the shows clearly indicates that they think much of what Cesar does to them is dangerous, harmful and abusive. At the very least it is obviously forceful, stressful and suppressing. Considering that there are kinder methods (that are not new and are proven to be effective even with the most behaviorally challenged dogs) as well as new knowledge of dominant/alpha/pack behavior, punitive methods such as these can only be viewed as unnecessary and outdated, and really shouldn't even be viewed as good entertainment any more than watching a dog fighting ring today should be viewed as entertainment:
"I do not in any way see what he does as dangerous, harmfull or abusive, then agian we all have different views on what all three of those things are." Leeana
This is certainly true, but I mostly concern myself with how DOGS (and other animals) view what people do to them. The body language of the dogs in the shows clearly indicates that they think much of what Cesar does to them is dangerous, harmful and abusive. At the very least it is obviously forceful, stressful and suppressing. Considering that there are kinder methods (that are not new and are proven to be effective even with the most behaviorally challenged dogs) as well as new knowledge of dominant/alpha/pack behavior, punitive methods such as these can only be viewed as unnecessary and outdated, and really shouldn't even be viewed as good entertainment any more than watching a dog fighting ring today should be viewed as entertainment:
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Those were good pics showing what we refer to Mininic. Thanks for referring that article. The pics taken alone could be argued away but not in light of known evidence. They clearly show the effect of overly coercive training methods, a mere glance is all it takes for confirmation.
My response was to Minimor as opinions were solicited regarding Mr. Milan. Opinion was given on both sides. As such I'm perplexed as to why you would be upset at at an opinion differing to yours. It was not about you, please don't make it so.
Bb
My response was to Minimor as opinions were solicited regarding Mr. Milan. Opinion was given on both sides. As such I'm perplexed as to why you would be upset at at an opinion differing to yours. It was not about you, please don't make it so.
Bb
Sonya
Well-Known Member
I've only watched the show a couple times, of what I have seen (which isn't alot) didn't constitute abusive methods IMO, but who knows what goes on behind the camera. I myself can't tell from those pics above what's going on, as well I would have to see more.
There are so many training methods out there, and of course everyone thinks theirs is the only and best way.
A couple years back I went to see a very, very famous "horse whisperer" in action...I will not give his name as it will only start an argument. But I can tell you this, there was no whispering going on. I didn't necessarily find his methods abusive, but some could of been considered harsh, and I can gaurantee there was no whispering. I did find his method better than the old time method of wearing a horse down, but in actuality that's all it really was but not done to the extreme and was candy-coated.
I also think different animals react differently to different training methods, what works for one doesn't work for all.
last and most importantly...I think I have two of the worst behaved dogs around sometime, but my pet sitter, who is a vet tech, breeder and trainer of labs thinks they are just angels....I guess they are only bad for me! LOL...or she is just saying that because I pay her well!
There are so many training methods out there, and of course everyone thinks theirs is the only and best way.
A couple years back I went to see a very, very famous "horse whisperer" in action...I will not give his name as it will only start an argument. But I can tell you this, there was no whispering going on. I didn't necessarily find his methods abusive, but some could of been considered harsh, and I can gaurantee there was no whispering. I did find his method better than the old time method of wearing a horse down, but in actuality that's all it really was but not done to the extreme and was candy-coated.
I also think different animals react differently to different training methods, what works for one doesn't work for all.
last and most importantly...I think I have two of the worst behaved dogs around sometime, but my pet sitter, who is a vet tech, breeder and trainer of labs thinks they are just angels....I guess they are only bad for me! LOL...or she is just saying that because I pay her well!
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Lilac Lane Farm
Well-Known Member
Thank you Lenna
I am so sick and tired of the people on this forum slamming everything about dogs. In their narrow minds ONLY, what they think is right! I am sick to death of this all
Every topic on dogs is dominated by so called knowledgeable dog people. :arg! :arg! Well for your information Cesar has helps a lot of people, and take it from another expert who has 30 plus years in the dog world.
I have showed, bred and also am a professional dog groomer of 20 years ( and that is an educated dog groomer with modern equipment ) your opinion is not always true. There are many methods of dog training in this world and to each their own. I have used many in my NUMEROUS years of dog training.
You RUDE people slam any dog breeder or person who doesn’t breed pure bred dogs or own one. I never get on this forum and slam your Australian Shepherds and Corgies, Goldens and Labs! I would never do that to any one!
Well the secret is out I HATE THEM!!!!!!!!
Useless dogs to me but I never have voiced any opinion about them and guess what I am a diehard PIT BULL person a true steward for the breed. So go ahead and slam me go right ahead you all are such jerks.
Also I breed designer dogs (oh my god!!!! am I sooooo bad?????) I breed wonderful pets that work well with families. Not everyone wants a HORRIABLE RESCUE SHELTER DOG, why adopt someone else’s problem. Big hairy dogs don’t always work well for everyone. You know sometimes there are people who WANT a very nice small dog, a Poodle mix. I also CERF test our dogs, micro chip them and sell with a 1 year guarantee .
I am so surprised that this allowed on the forum, any time someone slams a person with a real crappy ugly horse their hand is slapped and this is what is wrong about the back porch nothing is done and it goes on all the time.
I think you (you know who you are) should not be so harsh to everyone. You will never cram your training method down everyone’s throat.
Think before you post, there are a lot of good people here and their feelings get hurt.
If you can not tell this has been bothering me for a LONG TIME. I will probably be kicked off the forum for this post, oh well it will save me from all of you moronic dog experts
Heidi
I am so sick and tired of the people on this forum slamming everything about dogs. In their narrow minds ONLY, what they think is right! I am sick to death of this all
Every topic on dogs is dominated by so called knowledgeable dog people. :arg! :arg! Well for your information Cesar has helps a lot of people, and take it from another expert who has 30 plus years in the dog world.
I have showed, bred and also am a professional dog groomer of 20 years ( and that is an educated dog groomer with modern equipment ) your opinion is not always true. There are many methods of dog training in this world and to each their own. I have used many in my NUMEROUS years of dog training.
You RUDE people slam any dog breeder or person who doesn’t breed pure bred dogs or own one. I never get on this forum and slam your Australian Shepherds and Corgies, Goldens and Labs! I would never do that to any one!
Well the secret is out I HATE THEM!!!!!!!!
Also I breed designer dogs (oh my god!!!! am I sooooo bad?????) I breed wonderful pets that work well with families. Not everyone wants a HORRIABLE RESCUE SHELTER DOG, why adopt someone else’s problem. Big hairy dogs don’t always work well for everyone. You know sometimes there are people who WANT a very nice small dog, a Poodle mix. I also CERF test our dogs, micro chip them and sell with a 1 year guarantee .
I am so surprised that this allowed on the forum, any time someone slams a person with a real crappy ugly horse their hand is slapped and this is what is wrong about the back porch nothing is done and it goes on all the time.
I think you (you know who you are) should not be so harsh to everyone. You will never cram your training method down everyone’s throat.
If you can not tell this has been bothering me for a LONG TIME. I will probably be kicked off the forum for this post, oh well it will save me from all of you moronic dog experts
Heidi
Celtic Hill Farm
Well-Known Member
I have seen his show, ehhh...did nothing for me. My Cousin raves about him, and i'm just like "ehhh..." My (horse) trainer, also works with a dog trainer, and the way she trains is so much easier and simpler...may i say safer? I had once asked her about this person, and she said that there are a number of court cases where the owners are suing him because they tried his "techniques" and didn't work and ended up getting bitten.
I have never used any techniques of this guy's and i couldn't ask for a more prefect dog!
I have never used any techniques of this guy's and i couldn't ask for a more prefect dog!
anoki
Well-Known Member
I am posting this carefully...just to defend ME
First, I never said I am a 'knowledgeable' dog person...I have A LOT to learn, and I'm the first one to admit it (to me, if you think you know it all, you stop learning...and that is the biggest problem...there is always something new to learn, doesn't matter what you are talking about). I also couldn't give a rat's hiny what breed of dog someone owns. Not every breed of dog suits every person (that to me is a responsible dog breeder & OWNER...just knowing that). I don't think I've said ONE rude thing, other than telling the OP what I have researched on my own about Cesar Milan, as well as what I have been told by Professional dog trainers who train with Positive reinforcement (something that Cesar does NOT do) and these trainers have been training that way for longer than Cesar.
Believe me, my mind is FAR from narrow.
I agree, there are MANY ways of training dogs (as there are horses), but I have issues with people using force and aggression when training (dogs OR horses). Doesn't matter if you are 'fixing' a problem animal, or starting out with a new one. I have a dog living here now who was trained using force....if I get excited about something and raise my voice (say my favourite hockey team just scored the winning goal) he's ducking for cover....is that a well trained dog? no, he's been beaten into submission...
I don't know if your post was aimed at me precisely or not, but I ask you this....
If you had one of your horses with someone who trained using methods like Cesar Milan, would you leave your horse in that situation?
If you are a "diehard PIT BULL person a true stewart for the breed" you will already know that aggression breeds aggression. Aggressive training techniques create aggressive dogs. There are ways of doing what Cesar shows on his TV show without using force and aggression....but it doesn't sell good tv because it takes more time.
I happen to love Pit Bulls and am sick to death of breed specific legislation....but whether you like Pit Bulls or not has nothing to do with the OP.
I try really hard to NOT cram my opinion down people's throats, because, well, I hate people doing it to me....but I do offer my opinion, because maybe, just maybe it will get people thinking about the WHOLE picture, not just one side or the other.
The Back Porch
A "gathering place" for all of us to discuss almost anything "NHR". PLEASE NOTE: Some topics may be very controversial... If you can't take the heat, don't read them!!! This board is semi-monitored - ML
~kathryn
First, I never said I am a 'knowledgeable' dog person...I have A LOT to learn, and I'm the first one to admit it (to me, if you think you know it all, you stop learning...and that is the biggest problem...there is always something new to learn, doesn't matter what you are talking about). I also couldn't give a rat's hiny what breed of dog someone owns. Not every breed of dog suits every person (that to me is a responsible dog breeder & OWNER...just knowing that). I don't think I've said ONE rude thing, other than telling the OP what I have researched on my own about Cesar Milan, as well as what I have been told by Professional dog trainers who train with Positive reinforcement (something that Cesar does NOT do) and these trainers have been training that way for longer than Cesar.
Believe me, my mind is FAR from narrow.
I agree, there are MANY ways of training dogs (as there are horses), but I have issues with people using force and aggression when training (dogs OR horses). Doesn't matter if you are 'fixing' a problem animal, or starting out with a new one. I have a dog living here now who was trained using force....if I get excited about something and raise my voice (say my favourite hockey team just scored the winning goal) he's ducking for cover....is that a well trained dog? no, he's been beaten into submission...
I don't know if your post was aimed at me precisely or not, but I ask you this....
If you had one of your horses with someone who trained using methods like Cesar Milan, would you leave your horse in that situation?
If you are a "diehard PIT BULL person a true stewart for the breed" you will already know that aggression breeds aggression. Aggressive training techniques create aggressive dogs. There are ways of doing what Cesar shows on his TV show without using force and aggression....but it doesn't sell good tv because it takes more time.
I happen to love Pit Bulls and am sick to death of breed specific legislation....but whether you like Pit Bulls or not has nothing to do with the OP.
I try really hard to NOT cram my opinion down people's throats, because, well, I hate people doing it to me....but I do offer my opinion, because maybe, just maybe it will get people thinking about the WHOLE picture, not just one side or the other.
well there is this little disclaimer on the main forum page:
The Back Porch
A "gathering place" for all of us to discuss almost anything "NHR". PLEASE NOTE: Some topics may be very controversial... If you can't take the heat, don't read them!!! This board is semi-monitored - ML
~kathryn
lilmiraclesfarm
Well-Known Member
I'm not going to really get to involved in this. Just going to add my small 2 cents. I rather like him in ways. There are things I agree with and things I don't agree with. I'm a huge believer in being the "leader" To me its a sign of respect. If your dog basically walks all over you, it has no respect. My dogs behave themselves with me. But with my boyfriend they walk all over him. He is not at all dominant in this household.
Lilac Lane Farm
Well-Known Member
Anoki,
I did not aim my post to you, I am sorry if you took offence to it. I just have been bothered here about all the dog post. I really do not care what kind of dog you breed and I am sure you feel the same way about me. I do enjoy all the titles everyone wins with their AKC dogs, I love to see the pictures of them. I really do!!!!
I never slam anyone here and I do not post hardly at all, but it seems like there has been a lot of negative dog activity . I feel we need to be supportive of the dog industry ,breeding, training, showing ,ect.
It is very good to have people with knowledge here, but the slamming just needs to stop.
I have had Pit Bulls for 20 years and I do not beat them, I do use positive training with them. Anyone who was at Nationals would of seen my Pit bull Butch. He went everywhere with us and Sharon Burlington the gate loved him. I am not saying that Cesar is great in everything he does, but he does help people.
I have many dogs here at the kennel that I could not train with his method and one is a German Shepherd that was a rescue (Police dog). I have to be careful with him and “getting after him” the dominating part of it, he will have nothing to do with that.
I am just sick and tired of all the slamming here, please try to be nice
. This is what I tell my daughter everyday.
Heidi
I did not aim my post to you, I am sorry if you took offence to it. I just have been bothered here about all the dog post. I really do not care what kind of dog you breed and I am sure you feel the same way about me. I do enjoy all the titles everyone wins with their AKC dogs, I love to see the pictures of them. I really do!!!!
I never slam anyone here and I do not post hardly at all, but it seems like there has been a lot of negative dog activity . I feel we need to be supportive of the dog industry ,breeding, training, showing ,ect.
I have had Pit Bulls for 20 years and I do not beat them, I do use positive training with them. Anyone who was at Nationals would of seen my Pit bull Butch. He went everywhere with us and Sharon Burlington the gate loved him. I am not saying that Cesar is great in everything he does, but he does help people.
I have many dogs here at the kennel that I could not train with his method and one is a German Shepherd that was a rescue (Police dog). I have to be careful with him and “getting after him” the dominating part of it, he will have nothing to do with that.
I am just sick and tired of all the slamming here, please try to be nice
Heidi
Sonya
Well-Known Member
to lighten the mood:
Way to go girl, that's the way it's suppose to be, he sounds like the marrying kind!
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Reijel's Mom
Well-Known Member
Read his first book, liked it. Haven't read his 2nd book, and haven't seen his TV show. Obviously a bit of a controversial subject. Anyone want to discuss prong collars now?
Lilac Lane Farm
Well-Known Member
LOL
disneyhorse
Well-Known Member
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Not really being a "dog person" although raised around dogs in the house, I didn't have a strong feeling one way or another towards Cesar Milan.
Personally, I think on forums like this you will find people in either the "Strongly For" or "Strongly Against" category. Mostly because people who are opinionated enough to feel that way, will be aggressive enough to promote/verbalize one thing or against.
I sort of feel that Cesar is more "middle of the road" with his training. He does understand the natural communication and instincts of dogs, and gets the results he wants. And yes, he does use more aggressive tactics.
I personally feel that animals are all very different personalities, and the WISE animal trainer will take tips from ALL trainers, even ones that use tactics and methods they don't agree with initially. I'm sorry, but "positive-only-reinforcement" is NOT for EVERY animal. Some animals are just plain crazy, and some animals are jerks. Some animals DO need a firm hand to put them in their place for maximum benefit. An animal is NOT a child, so they DO need to be respectful, safe, and obedient at all times. And an animal that understands its role and isn't spoiled will endure less negative interactions because it will not provoke them.
Yes, there are some sensitive animals that have NO need for an aggressive training regimen. And I believe there are some individuals who would benefit from a more firm approach. Dogs, horses, and heck, even people! I know some people who no matter how nice and supportive you are, will just take advantage and enjoy not having any consequences.
I don't find Cesar Milan to be SO terribly abusive that he has nothing to offer. Obviously he has a lot to offer, or he wouldn't be as popular as he is?
From the few episodes I have seen (and you can see some short versions on YouTube I think) I have really enjoyed them. My mom has also enjoyed them and has had some success with the dogs, she is more motivated to get them to really pay attention and she is starting to really understand the dog's mind. Cesar is very charismatic, and he does help motivate people to really understand that dogs need jobs to prevent boredom behaviors, etc. so that can't be all bad.
I suggest you just check it out and see what you think. I always watch "popular" trainers and either decide if it's helpful or useless. I think a lot of the Natural Horsemanship stuff is just DREADFUL and I have seen people do DREADFUL things but the people who ARE into it, are very much into it and think anything else is abusive and old-school!
Just take everything with a grain of salt and see what works for you and your animal. Each relationship is different, and the same methods will work differently accordingly.
Andrea
Personally, I think on forums like this you will find people in either the "Strongly For" or "Strongly Against" category. Mostly because people who are opinionated enough to feel that way, will be aggressive enough to promote/verbalize one thing or against.
I sort of feel that Cesar is more "middle of the road" with his training. He does understand the natural communication and instincts of dogs, and gets the results he wants. And yes, he does use more aggressive tactics.
I personally feel that animals are all very different personalities, and the WISE animal trainer will take tips from ALL trainers, even ones that use tactics and methods they don't agree with initially. I'm sorry, but "positive-only-reinforcement" is NOT for EVERY animal. Some animals are just plain crazy, and some animals are jerks. Some animals DO need a firm hand to put them in their place for maximum benefit. An animal is NOT a child, so they DO need to be respectful, safe, and obedient at all times. And an animal that understands its role and isn't spoiled will endure less negative interactions because it will not provoke them.
Yes, there are some sensitive animals that have NO need for an aggressive training regimen. And I believe there are some individuals who would benefit from a more firm approach. Dogs, horses, and heck, even people! I know some people who no matter how nice and supportive you are, will just take advantage and enjoy not having any consequences.
I don't find Cesar Milan to be SO terribly abusive that he has nothing to offer. Obviously he has a lot to offer, or he wouldn't be as popular as he is?
From the few episodes I have seen (and you can see some short versions on YouTube I think) I have really enjoyed them. My mom has also enjoyed them and has had some success with the dogs, she is more motivated to get them to really pay attention and she is starting to really understand the dog's mind. Cesar is very charismatic, and he does help motivate people to really understand that dogs need jobs to prevent boredom behaviors, etc. so that can't be all bad.
I suggest you just check it out and see what you think. I always watch "popular" trainers and either decide if it's helpful or useless. I think a lot of the Natural Horsemanship stuff is just DREADFUL and I have seen people do DREADFUL things but the people who ARE into it, are very much into it and think anything else is abusive and old-school!
Just take everything with a grain of salt and see what works for you and your animal. Each relationship is different, and the same methods will work differently accordingly.
Andrea
Sonya
Well-Known Member
Very well said Andrea.
Lilac Lane Farm
Well-Known Member
Thank you Andrea
Mark & Sharon Bullington
Well-Known Member
Heidi -
Sharon said to tell you she remembers Butch very well - she said he is just an awesome dog. Please give him a "skratch" for her (and one for me, too) and she hopes to see you both later this year at Nationals.
Mark & Sharon Bullington
Sharon said to tell you she remembers Butch very well - she said he is just an awesome dog. Please give him a "skratch" for her (and one for me, too) and she hopes to see you both later this year at Nationals.
Mark & Sharon Bullington
ErikaS.
Well-Known Member
I just have to say Cesar's show is entertaining; it makes me appreciate my own dogs more- in fact it makes my dogs look like saints....oh yeah, one of my dogs is a Saint. haha<-me laughing at my own joke
tagalong
Well-Known Member
Exactly right.
I guess I fail to understand a lot of the finger-pointing and heat in this thread. Don't like Cesar Milan? Fine - don't watch him, don't read his books, suit yourself. Could many of us deal as effectively with some of the dogs on that show that he has helped? No. I have seen Dog Whisperer episodes... don't have any of the books.
Do I take as gospel everything he says - or even what another dog training business says (such as the link that mininik provided)? No.
I like some things he does and not others - and yes he has helped people... I like a lot/most of what Victoria Stilwell does with helping change how the owners interact with their dogs...
It is the same thing with any trainer - be it equine or canine. You take what you like from one approach, use a little of something else from another program, other bits from here and there... and thus find the blend that works for you. And I doubt that any of you could say that there is not some kernel to be gleaned from many Dog Whisperer shows. Or any other trainer.
Now if you want to discuss "trainers", I could tell you behind the scenes crap about Monty Roberts and his @#$% Join Up demos.... things were not what they seemed... and what was not an outright charade was often simply lousy horsemanship. But I digress...
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