Do You Think EINSTEIN Is A Dwarf?

[StarRidgeAcres]

(I do think it's very possible he may be a carrier with a few characteristics peaking through).

"A carrier with a few characteristics peeking through" IS A DWARF!

That is exactly what people, ok I'll just speak for myself - ME, are trying to say! It's like being a little pregnant. And my intentions are no where NEAR about being judgemental. It's about informing people, like newer folks to the mini world, about the truths of dwarfism. It's an ugly, sad, evil part of the breed and if we dare to dismiss it as "cute" then shame on us all. Are dwarves cute themselves and precious and deserving of love and freedom from pain? ABSOLUTELY! But let's not pretend it doesn't exists when it's as big as an elephant in the room.

Einstein is a little doll! No question. He may be ill-mannered, but that's not a danger to the breed. Although it did make him look like a little brat on national tv when he could have looked like a sweet little angel if he'd been trained.

And if someone is knowingly breeding "a carrier with a few characteristics peeking through" then in my opinion, yes, they should STOP!

A long time ago someone asked, I believe it was Matt D, where would the breed be if all the know dwarf producers had been culled from the breeding pool? I believe he was referring to all the producers that have also produced world champions, etc. And my point then, and now, is sadly we don't know where the breed might be. But why should we assume it would be worse off? My personal belief is it would be much better off. Sure, a lot of farms that have existed forever on a few producers wouldn't be in business, but other horses would have risen to the occasion and we may have found ourselves with a much stronger and varied gene pool than we have today.

As for the test. It must exist, if only in a lab somewhere, if I can be told based on blood samples what type of carrier a horse was. Apparently there is a reason why it's not available to the public. But that's another topic with more opinions I'm sure.

OK. The horse is dead.

 

[Jill]

"A carrier with a few characteristics peeking through" IS A DWARF!

I completely agree with this... and really everything you just said, Parmela!

:yeah

 

[minimomNC]

I think I will keep my opinion to myself on this one, cause my opinion doesn't mean much anyway. BUT since he is registered AMHA (I checked) if he were to be taken to a show and shown, should the judges refuse to place him if he is a dwarf. Even if its all last places, should they refuse to give him ribbons because they think he is a dwarf or should they place him and not say anything. After all, they are AMHA carded judges and should know the difference.

 

[Jill]

I don't know, Karen. Would it fit into the same catagory of if a horse is too big for the class, it's not up to the judges to make that call -- rather to place what has been put before them. (Not being sarcastic, I really don't know... Not sure if the registry and the stewards are on the "hook" for that call, or if the judges are.)

 

[kaykay]

Years and Years ago when I first started showing an obvious dwarf was showing in halter. The judge refused to place it even though there were only 2 in the class. When the owner asked why the judge very respectfully told the owner she was showing a dwarf. I have huge respect for that judge. Thankfully others helped educate the owner after the class. She truly had no idea her mini was a dwarf.

In AMHR a judge can refuse to place a horse even for reasons other than being a dwarf. Its rare but it happens.

 

[kayla221444]

IMO I see Dwarf in Him, have since the day he was born, if you look back at foal video's his HEAD is Almost as big as his body!!! And almost looks like he could "tip" over from the weight of it... His legs seem somewhat straight, In the recent videos his back looks horribly roached. His neck seems to be the length of his head.

It's not them advertising him that Erk's me, it is when they say hes A small porpotioned nice mini, that shows no dwarf Char. ...

People that see him on the news etc, just believe everything they hear, and think that is what a Nice Miniature should look like...

I think someone should start campagining a Nice Quality Miniature Horse...and listen the views from Non-Knowledgeable people I think they could even tell the difference in a nice mini compared to a dwarf that is being promoted...

 

[horsehug]

When I say I do not believe Einstein is a dwarf, I am going by what John Eberth said in various posts on the dwarf forum right here on LB (as well as in many emails over the years in answer to my questions about dwarfism).

In other words, in order to BE a dwarf, the horse has to have TWO copies of the dwarf gene, and in order to be a carrier and not a true dwarf, he has to have one copy of the gene. Here is just one quote from John. He has been studying dwarfism at least since 1993.

To try to bring some rational understanding to this subject about "minimal dwarfs", I feel I need to comment about the term, what it means and its use.
First of all, the term "minimal dwarf" is totally a made up term by someone somewhere that wanted to say that a horse that wasnt a dwarf but looked like one was a "minimal dwarf", or wanted to say that a true dwarf that was minimally affected (ie a good dwarf) was a "minimal dwarf". So needless to say, the term has been widely used for a wide variety of "good dwarfs" or "horses with really bad conformation" or "a horse that had an extremely exotic head, bad legs, and really small in height". Any way you look at it, the term has been used to try to describe a wide variety of horses with "some sort of problem." So with that said, I strongly feel the term is incorrect and it is used improperly to describe certain horses.

If you have a dwarf that is "a good dwarf" in the sense that it has the disease but it is not as severe in showing its characterisitcs, then you have a dwarf with two homozygous recessive genes showing less gene expression than might be typically seen. Your dwarf is no less of a dwarf than someone else's dwarf that might be more severely affected by it's genes' expression of the disease.

Unless you are looking at two different types of dwarfism, then you cant compare at all, because the pathology of the two diseases are different.

If you have a very small horse with an exotic head, bad legs, and maybe other conformational faults, how can you say the horse is a minimal dwarf?? Dont you think it is possible to have all of those characterisitics and NOT be a dwarf, (especially in this breed). That is not to say the horse is not possibly a carrier. If that IS the case, which you dont know until it produces one, then you have a carrier that is having expressivity of a recessive gene competing with the dominant gene. BUT, the horse is NOT a dwarf in having the characterisitics of the disease. I have personally seen "really good dwarfs" and horses with expressivity of a recessive dwarf gene look very similar. So until there is some real information to catagorize these horses with certain traits and variances, I recommend to everyone not to use the term so loosely.

So to answer your question in a lengthy way, I do not know if the "minimal dwarf" a stallion and a mare have is actually a minimal dwarf and not a really bad horse, I dont have pics to see. I have seen thousands of pics of various horses over the years. I have learned to "see" certain characterisitics of horses that might be expressivity of a recessive dwarf gene. But that does not mean the horse is a "minimal dwarf", it is no such thing. A horse with small size and an underbite does NOT classify the horse as a "minimal dwarf". An underbite is a deleterious trait all its own, without dwarfism causing it. Crooked legs on a small horse does not mean it is a minimal dwarf, crooked legs are in every horse breed. Our breed sees more of them because the size of the horse is not 1500 lbs. A large horse foal or yearling with severely crooked legs gets put down, we seem to let it go try to "fix it" and keep those alive, not because it is trying to be caring or that we try to breed for it. But, because of their small size they CAN still walk, run and breed, we keep perpetuating certain deleterious characterisitics that are getting confused with dwarfism.

Susan O.

 

[ohmt]

Thank you very much Susan. A horse absolutely does NOT have to b a dwarf to have a recessive gene that shows some characteristics over the dominant. That is genetics. Some of these posts are getting extremely disrespectful and I highly recommend some of you visit the dwarf forum in here before using caps, bold, and exclamation points to yell at someone for voicing their opinion based on scientific studies.

 

[targetsmom]

I, too, went back to the LB Dwarfism forum and found what I was looking for on the last page: Instead of a link, here are the question and answer. Draw your own conclusions.

Question:

I would like to know if you can list VISUAL traits in what is classified as a Dwarf in Miniature Horses? Example... If the horse looks like it's legs are too short for it's body.. does this make it a Dwarf? Or does it have to be combined with other visual things (besides short legs) to look for before it is classified as a Dwarf? Hope I made sense in what I ask..

John Eberth's answer:

Your question is a good one, unfortunately the answer is a highly variable one, if you get what I am saying.

Yes short "stubby" legs would make me suspicious especially if other characteristics are there. I know I answered a thread earlier that was on top, my bad, but in that answer, I think from Annette, can give you a really good grasp as to why my answer is variable.

The only time I would be able to look only at legs and say yes is to a type 2 dwarf, where the upper legs are extremely shortened, and a very weak hip. A very good slang comparison to a type 2 dwarf would be to say the body looks like a german Shepard in the rear, and that the body looks like it is going up hill.The biggest problem with using physical visual characteristics is obviously a poorly conformed and stocky horse that is NOT a dwarf might be thought IS a dwarf. This goes back to knowing good horse conformation versus bad and training your eye by actually looking at horses that are known dwarfs and looking at the parents and comparing those visual characteristics and clues and compare to a generally "good quality" horse that shockingly had a dwarf. Again it is something that is learned from experience, and most people dont have the luxury I have had for over 28 yrs seeing from the beginning "dwarfs" from "non-dwarf" carriers. There are numerous consistent characteristics, but pedigree knowledge is the key.

John

 

[Reble]

This goes back to knowing good horse conformation versus bad and training your eye by actually looking at horses that are known dwarfs and looking at the parents and comparing those visual characteristics and clues and compare to a generally "good quality" horse that shockingly had a dwarf. Again it is something that is learned from experience, and most people dont have the luxury I have had for over 28 yrs seeing from the beginning "dwarfs" from "non-dwarf" carriers. There are numerous consistent characteristics, but pedigree knowledge is the key.

John

Some traits are structural that someone might confuse with being a dwarf, like short legs that are proportional, meaning upper and lower leg bones are proportional to themselves, but you have a horse that is really long bodied, big head, and short neck. Well to me, most likely you have just a horse with undesirable traits, not dwarfism at all. Those things happen, we are breeding animals with genetics we cannot totally control, we are not manufacturing an idealized horse from an assembly line.

Remember, Mother Nature wants genetic variation, this ensures the most viable genetics are spread out to ensure the perpetuation of a species, and organisms in general, plant or whatever. The way genes are inherited ensures some variation no matter how true breeding an animal is.

John

 

[tagalong]

"A carrier with a few characteristics peeking through" IS A DWARF!

THIS ^ . Any characteristics being expressed or "peeking through" = DWARF.

The roached back/scoliosis is a giant screaming flashing red alert here and is a lot more than simply "poor conformation" (seriously??!!). It will get worse as he ages.

I wonder how many who do not feel he is a dwarf in any way would change their minds if Einstein was a solid bay or chestnut and the flashy colouring was not there as a distraction.

As far as small goes, we have a red 27" filly here who has great conformation, great manners and is a far better representative of the breed. I guess she needs an agent... and maybe some chrome.

 

[Reble]

THIS ^ . Any characteristics being expressed or "peeking through" = DWARF.

The roached back/scoliosis is a giant screaming flashing red alert here and is a lot more than simply "poor conformation" (seriously??!!). It will get worse as he ages.

I wonder how many who do not feel he is a dwarf in any way would change their minds if Einstein was a solid bay or chestnut and the flashy colouring was not there as a distraction.

As far as small goes, we have a red 27" filly here who has great conformation, great manners and is a far better representative of the breed. I guess she needs an agent... and maybe some chrome.

Ok need to learn something here, where does it say a roached back is dwarf, wanting to understand your comment, other the depth of a horse's topline may vary, from sway-backed to roach-backed, big horses have this problem as well and because of their use for riding is not looked on to be good, I do not believe this means dwarf?

Yes, not good conformation but dwarf .

Can you tell me where you found this information.

No in my opinion color has nothing to do with it, but does help him stand out with his markings.

 

[chandab]

The roached back/scoliosis is a giant screaming flashing red alert here and is a lot more than simply "poor conformation" (seriously??!!).

So, what does roached back in a full-size horse breed mean? I've seen roached backed full-size horses, and we're not talking hunters bump, but full on roached back.

[Guess Reble and I were posting at the same time.]

 

[kayla221444]

I can say in all of my years I have never seen a roached back Big horse, maybe one where his back bone was sticking out because he wasn't properly fed..but none that were roached back

 

[Reble]

I can say in all of my years I have never seen a roached back Big horse, maybe one where his back bone was sticking out because he wasn't properly fed..but none that were roached back

Here is information on roached back for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_(horse)

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I think we all need to cool off a bit on this...

Even if the colt were to be an obvious, screaming at you, dwarf, exactly what are you going to do about it?

I would love to know how he got to be registered AMHA, though, when they are happy to proclaim something a dwarf or a completely different colour to the one you know it to be, form a couple of photos- so how come they did not pick up on it?

At the end of the day, I have a feeling that even were there a test, and there is not, not yet, these people would not be interested in it.

Leave it a couple of years and it will all blow over- where is thumbelina now?

And, yes, I am one of the ones who has two 27" yearlings, perfect in every way, and one Appy to boot, and a chestnut three year old who stands 27" at the withers and is also perfect, so Einstein, whatever he is, is far form unique!

 

[kayla221444]

Here is information on roached back for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_(horse)

I was stating me personally I have never seen one..but thanks

 

[tagalong]

I have seen dwarfs with severe to moderate scoliosis - which is where my concerns about the roached back come from. You can airly dismiss it if you choose but IMO if that does not set off some sort of alarms (especially in minis where dwarfism is a concern) well, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree about possible warning signs. Even if "all"

he had was that roach back - do you really think that is simply poor confromation??!! No - poor conformation is not what you would put in a halter class and/or breed for (for colour or any other reason). A roach back is an unsoundness. A LOUD one. And I said it was a RED ALERT... as it should be.

Cuteness, small size and flashy colour should not outweigh genetic and structural issues/concerns.

JMO. YMMV.

 

[Eohippus]

I can't say if he's a dwarf or not. I look at some pictures or videos and they seem to scream dwarf!! But then I look at others and I just say really bad conformation. Though his back has gotten worse with age amongst other things. I think time will tell. However...

I think what disappoints me the most isn't the fact that he may or may not be a dwarf, because like a few others have said, even if he is (and it was proven through a test) the owners would a) test to begin with b) share the test results if they did test or c) really care. He is getting good care and love, which is important for any horse.

The things that upset me about the situation are: They overlook the fact he was born premature most of the time. His height wasn't much smaller than Kinson's when born, but the weight is what made a difference and it’s his weight that the record books are recording. If you look at the fine print it does say something about smallest weighing or lightest born but they act like no miniature has even been born that height before.

They don't have a horn companion for him. My 25.5" stallion plays with my 33" geldings. Did I worry about the size difference at first? You bet, especially when he was a yearling and only 19". But my geldings are good boys and gentle with them (but firm when teaching him manners!). If they're really concern about him there are other minis out there that are small, all they need to do is find a one they like (and make it a gelding if it isn't!). Or they could give an actual proven/known dwarf a home so it is a little as Einstein (as long as the dwarf wasn't severely affected and could play with another horse) as they have the money to take care of a dwarf.

The most upsetting/irritating/annoying thing to me is his behavior. He's a brat. That is one thing I think every one has agreed on lol. He's tiny so he can get away with more because it’s not seen as dangerous it’s seen as cute and he probably gets away with it because they use the line "he's a stallion" which to me is no excuse. For a little while Kinson was becoming a brat because I just let him get away with more due to his small size. I just shrugged it off thinking "he's tiny, what could it hurt?" or "he's not threat" then my friend would give the line "It’s just because he's a stallion" then I realized that’s no excuse and I shouldn't let him get away with any more than my full sized horses or my mini geldings. He's back to being a well mannered little stallion now, though, when in public he's always been an angel as he seems to know its his job to represent miniatures at their finest with the best and sweetest personalities. Had he been on an interview for TV I know I could have asked him to stand there and he would've done so nicely.

 

[Jill]

I agree with a lot of what has been said in the recent posts. Unfortunately, Einstein is physically a very poor example of a miniature horse and he is also really badly behaved. Yet, he is "what" a lot of people now think of when they wonder "what's a miniature horse?" If Einstein was what a miniature horse has to be, I know I would have just stuck with my full size horses.