Could someone please explain hardshipping to me

[Eohippus]

My whole take on this is Shetlands were used to establish miniatures, to establish lines and help create a breed. Much like the mustangs (who show up as "range mare", "range stallion", and "unkown") and thoroughbreds were used to establish the quarter horse. Yet the quarter horse is now an established breed. You get a quarter horse from two quarter horses, simple as that (granted they have a much more defined breed standard, but still you get the idea). So I think the arguement isn't "straight" miniature as in a horse that has no shetland, but rather a miniature horse that has no modern (within 2 generations/10 years/some time frame like that) shetland/isn't ASPC registered/etc. Thats my take on it at least.

I think Shetlands are impressive in their own right and miniatures are impressive in theirs. I happen to like AMHA more because I like smaller horses (not saying AMHR can't be small too! Just I see more small ones in AMHA

) not because of shetland blood or no shetland blood. But in some way I agree that if you want it to be a "breed" not a height registry then you need to close the registries and make a clear breed description.

 

[horsehug]

Mominis,

I understand what you are saying for sure.

Many years ago when I got my first minis I kept hearing minis are horses bred down from horses and Shetlands are different.

But it just did not add up for me and as time went by I learned this was a marketing ploy. I had good friends who had raised shetlands for years and when they got the size down small enough they were able to register them in the AMHR and/or AMHA. They did NOT deny the shetland blood!!

So after learning the truth, all these years when people come to my farm and ask me that perpetual question about if they are bred down horses and different from shetlands. I have told them all these years that if people have told them that, they are either uninformed and do not know the truth or they are lying. I do NOT deny that my minis are primarily shetland blood..... bred down from shetlands and that as time has gone on we have tried to breed for more refinement than some shetlands were 20 + years ago, but they are still bred down shetlands By and Large!

I have always wanted the tiniest minis and have concentrated on double registered AMHA and AMHR.

I no longer show, and do not worry about the whole controversy. I find there has always been a market for my AMHA or AMHR or double..... up more at times and down more at times but a market nonetheless. And there has ALWAYS been a market for SMALL, which is why I wanted to get into minis in the first place. I LOVE the tiny minis (and no I am not talking dwarfs.)

I have no problem with people having AMHA or AMHR or AMHR/ASPC or ASPC or any other registries.

I DO wish people were honest about the shetland heritage and blood in MOST miniature horses whichever registry they are in!

I KNOW mine... from the 27.5" ones to the 35.25" one are of shetland heritage. Even though they are all either AMHA, or AMHA/AMHR, or AMHR.

Susan O.

 

[Cowboy905]

thoroughbreds were used to establish the quarter horse. Yet the quarter horse is now an established breed.

Great point!

And even though Quarter horse is such a developed breed they still allow quarter horses to be bred to thoroughbreds and the resulting foal is considered an appendix quarter horse until it has recieved and ROM (15 points) in any division. Then AQHA sends out regular quarter horse papers for it.

So to think that AMHR is at a point that it should close its registry completey to become a breed is alittle premature.

 

[Eohippus]

And even though Quarter horse is such a developed breed they still allow quarter horses to be bred to thoroughbreds and the resulting foal is considered an appendix quarter horse until it has recieved and ROM (15 points) in any division. Then AQHA sends out regular quarter horse papers for it.

Now that would be great if AMHR (and possibly AMHA) did something like that. Its one step closer to becoming a "breed" but still allows horses who can contribute something to the breed to be fully registered and breed and pass on those qualities that make them so great. I would be a huge fan of this!

 

[JWC sr.]

you know folks, everyone has a take on why the controversy is so vehement when it comes to different people and this shetland as versus miniature subject comes up. Bottom line for me anyway is I like small equine for any number of reasons. With that said we raise AMHA/AMHR mini's and ASPC shetlands. We even have a few that are AMHA/AMHR/ASPC registered.

I do though agree with many of you that todays mini's did originally come from a combination of shetland, poa, morgan, pit ponies(as they were called) etc. They are the Heinz 57 of the equine breeds and to me that is fine, I also rode and worked quarter horses for a number of years and they were originally a mixed breed if you will.

No amount of complaining or denying that we have shetland or other blood in our miniatures will make it go away. Further they sure do not breed true when it comes to type, movement or just general looks.

Will we as a miniature breed ever come to pass at some point in the future? Yes I think we will but that is a long way off. The powers that be in the different registries are attempting to move us in that direction and when the gene pool is large enough to deal with the problems of dwarfism, bad movement, etc.etc. that is fine with me. Till then I will represent my horses as exactly what the are "small equine" from various and sometimes unknown heritage.

As far as the shetland breed is concerned, the original shetlands (dumpy, ill tempered little devils that they were)imported back years ago are a far cry from todays American Shetland Pony. Hence the verbiage of "American Shetland Pony" is used to describe them with all their heritage and background. Hopefully one day miniatures will have that connotation also and can be known as "American Miniature Horses" the breed also.

Time will tell and hopefully it is not too far off!!

 

[OhHorsePee]

Here is something I thought about today. If AMHR/ASPC changes the way they measure than by the standards of AMHR/ASPC the 34 inch AMHA horses will have to be hardshipped into an over division in AMHR/ASPC if they want to show both registries because they will be over 34 inches.

I also have to wonder what people think the Fallabella's are since they are from a cross of small thoroughbreds, welsh ponies and shetland ponies. To me none of this matters as I love my mins no matter where they originated just like I love my ponies.

 

[OhHorsePee]

Will we as a miniature breed ever come to pass at some point in the future? Yes I think we will but that is a long way off. The powers that be in the different registries are attempting to move us in that direction and when the gene pool is large enough to deal with the problems of dwarfism, bad movement, etc.etc. that is fine with me. Till then I will represent my horses as exactly what the are "small equine" from various and sometimes unknown heritage.

John, could you please clarify what "the powers that be" are doing to move us in what direction? Thank you in advance!! And am I reading this right that it is BOTH registries? Please do correct me if I am not reading this correctlty.

 

[Devon]

Just by virtue of using the word "dumped" it is definitely construed as derogatory tword shetlands. Well actually the whole sentence lets us know how you feel about Shetlands LOL.

Ironic that you pick Lavern (Renee) as her entire program is based off 2 of the most famous Shetland ponies that ever lived (Gold Melody Boy/Buckeroo and Rowdy)

Be careful though as Lavern doesnt like people posting about Shetlands or ASPC on the miniature forum. I never start a post about them on the miniature forum but I do reply to them

Excellent point and one I have been saying for years but it falls on deaf ears.

I would really like someone to define "straight miniature". I know thats how Lavern advertises hers but they all go back to famous Shetlands?

So a miniature is only a "straight" miniature if its a Shetland you like?

Anyway its like beating a dead horse for sure.

Bottom line is if you dont like ASPC/AMHR Minaitures dont buy them or breed them. Its so simple to me

Ok,

Tell me how a miniature can be a straight miniature that has "Unknown" in it's background? Unknown what? Morgan, Arab, Harnessbred, Quarter, Welsh, POA, Thoroughbred? If by divine intervention from the great white spirit above, gives me a miniature out of two regular size horses of unknown heritage, I hardship that miniature horse into the AMHR, then does that make it a straight miniature? Please explain that to me.

Karen

Agreed Ladies;

I would love a defintion of a "straight miniature". If someone told me their mini was straight I could probably find as horse in it's background that had ASPC breeding.. Gold melody boy, buckeroo .. All the "unknowns" in our minis from the days of hardshipping. I bet most of the hardshipped in minis had alot of pony in them..

Honestly it is not impossible for a miniature to beat a shetland so everyone who loves these "straight minis" and dislike the shetlands just keep breeding for good conformation and you will be succesful.

No one is telling anyone to sell out their amhr horses and breed aspc/amhr ..

I agree kay it is certaintly like beating a dead horse..

 

[Leeana]

Well for the 14,990,143 time..or is it 14,990,144 (I lost count - sorry!)...

Agreed Ladies;

I would love a defintion of a "straight miniature". If someone told me their mini was straight I could probably find as horse in it's background that had ASPC breeding.. Gold melody boy, buckeroo .. All the "unknowns" in our minis from the days of hardshipping. I bet most of the hardshipped in minis had alot of pony in them..

Honestly it is not impossible for a miniature to beat a shetland so everyone who loves these "straight minis" and dislike the shetlands just keep breeding for good conformation and you will be succesful.

No one is telling anyone to sell out their amhr horses and breed aspc/amhr ..

I agree kay it is certaintly like beating a dead horse..

I couldn't agree with Devon more! The best thing about the diversity of the breed (well, registry) as you can really own, show, breed and enjoy whatever type of horse/pony or breeding you like. Honestly - I don't want "pets"...I want show horses. I want a pony that wants to SHOW and is what I consider to be attractive. There is NO reason for anyone to be so agianst the shetland influence that has always been there. There is NO difference between the ponies showing in AMHR - They are all miniature horses! I don't care if they have ASPC or AMHA papers on the side...they are miniature horses...miniature ponies, whatever you want to call them.

I generally toss them all into the "pony" catigory..however here at my farm "pony" is not a bad word...(I like the last part of that, I may have to put that in my signature!!! LOL)

 

[Reble]

I must agree, if someone ask about how these horses got so small.

I say Shetland ponies and years and years ago a dwarf, which we are trying too better the miniature horses to have good conformation.

They are ponies and go by size not a breed.

 

[Songcatcher]

I must agree, if someone ask about how these horses got so small.

I say shetland ponies and years and years ago a dwarf, which we are trying to better the miniature horses to have good conformation.

They are ponies and go by size not a breed.

Whoa! While there was certainly at least one dwarf used (and probably more) it was not the dwarf that made them small. Their current small size would have been achieved even without the use of a dwarf. I just wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that they can reduce the size by breeding a dwarf.

 

[Reble]

Whoa! While there was certainly at least one dwarf used (and probably more) it was not the dwarf that made them small. Their current small size would have been achieved even without the use of a dwarf. I just wouldn't want anyone to get the idea that they can reduce the size by breeding a dwarf.

Well we read that Bond Tiny Tim

and years and years ago a dwarf, which we are trying to better the miniature horses to have good conformation.

Miniature Horse - The term “Miniature Horse” was created in the 1970s because some breeders of midget ponies felt that a more deceptive name would make them more salable and desirable. Coining the term "miniature horse” is said to have been a marketing ploy by breeders, and the ancestors of many Miniature Horses were from the same midget ponies of the McCoy stud. The early Miniature horse breeders in America bred extensively with genetic dwarf horses such as the popular stud Bond Tiny Tim, a 19-inch tall dwarf horse that sired hundreds of offspring. This indigenous dwarfism has led to widespread birth defects and the creation of hundreds of tiny horses with serious health problems.

If anyone is interested here is a link about him below:

http://www.theminiaturehorse.com/historical/bondtinytim.htm

 

[MiLo Minis]

My whole take on this is Shetlands were used to establish miniatures, to establish lines and help create a breed. Much like the mustangs (who show up as "range mare", "range stallion", and "unkown") and thoroughbreds were used to establish the quarter horse. Yet the quarter horse is now an established breed. You get a quarter horse from two quarter horses, simple as that (granted they have a much more defined breed standard, but still you get the idea). So I think the arguement isn't "straight" miniature as in a horse that has no shetland, but rather a miniature horse that has no modern (within 2 generations/10 years/some time frame like that) shetland/isn't ASPC registered/etc. Thats my take on it at least.

I think Shetlands are impressive in their own right and miniatures are impressive in theirs. I happen to like AMHA more because I like smaller horses (not saying AMHR can't be small too! Just I see more small ones in AMHA

) not because of shetland blood or no shetland blood. But in some way I agree that if you want it to be a "breed" not a height registry then you need to close the registries and make a clear breed description.

Now you are someone that "gets it"! Use whatever term you want to describe them - the Miniatures from the recent past have acheived their own look separate from the Shetlands or other breeds that have been used to create them. The only reason I can see that we are going back to the Shetland look is that the powers that be have realized Minis are taking over and the prices on pure Shetlands have gone down. Okay so bring the Shetland back into it and suddenly they can commmand better prices for their Shetland stock. IF that is the way the Miniature industry on a whole wants to go so be it but bring it to a legitimate vote by ALL the members and see if indeed that IS the way we all want to go. At that point give us a breed standard that describes what we should be aiming for.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I do though agree with many of you that todays mini's did originally come from a combination of shetland, poa, morgan, pit ponies(as they were called) etc. They are the Heinz 57 of the equine breeds and to me that is fine, I also rode and worked quarter horses for a number of years and they were originally a mixed breed if you will.

The powers that be in the different registries are attempting to move us in that direction and when the gene pool is large enough to deal with the problems of dwarfism, bad movement, etc.etc. that is fine with me. Till then I will represent my horses as exactly what the are "small equine" from various and sometimes unknown heritage.

I too believe that closing the registry now is on the premature side but what bothers me is that "the powers that be" seem to have made the decision for us that Shetland is the only way to go. They have made it difficult to bring any other blood in except that of Shetlands and I for one am not entirely sure that is the way to go. I am not in any way denying or begrudging the Shetland heritage but as you pointed out there are many other breeds that have influenced the Mini of today and I don't see why until the registry is fully closed those other breeds should not continue to have influence. I don't see them doing anything to further the industry's goals other than forcing everyone to bring Shetland blood back in and my personal opinion on this is that they aren't doing it to further the industry on a whole but to fill the pockets of the Shetland breeders whose prices had fallen just as they created the original Minis to fill another niche when prices were down. If a vote was taken and it was proved that the majority wanted only Shetland blood that would be fine. I am NOT in any way against Shetlands as I have said many times before. That is why I can appreciate Desiree's new filly - she is a lovely example of an equine. I met her at Nationals and was very impressed. As our breed stands now, Des, and anyone else who wants to breed in that direction is fully entitled to as I am fully entitled to breed the type of horse that I prefer BUT unless, and until, we have a standard of perfection that describes a specific equine, limiting us to the Shetland type, by closing the registry to all but Shetlands, is hardly fair. I have continued to enjoy success in the show ring with the Minis that I breed because they have overall good equine conformation so I am not in any way operating on sour grapes as some people seem to think. I have seen many threads on this subject and I think it is time that we found out for certain where our future lies by putting it to a vote by the entire AMHR membership. That would put an end to discussions of this type as we would all know what to breed for. This really shouldn't be a big problem as every breed I have ever been previously involved with or known has had a distinct breed description that has evolved with that particular breed and the breeders involved have also evolved their breeding to conform to the standards, or not, as their own choice. All I ask is that they level the playing field by giving us a proper breed standard of perfection so we are all operating on the same level and our judges can judge fairly OR open the registry back up to all hardshipping - don't leave us hanging in La-la Land!

 

[Minimor]

the Miniatures from the recent past have acheived their own look separate from the Shetlands or other breeds that have been used to create them

Have they really? From what I've seen there are several lines of Shetlands that look very much like what I think of as a "typical" Miniature...if I just saw them somewhere & no one told me what they were registered as, I would take them for Miniatures, not Shetlands. There are a few Miniatures (no ASPC papers) that could be mistaken for Shetlands--I've seen a few of those. And then there are those ponies--most often the taller ones--that are quite obviously Shetland and not Miniatures...and one of those is what I would like to have in Miniature size!
In many cases, though, I just don't see the difference that some claim exists.

Have Shetland prices dropped again? I haven't really noticed that--some are low, some are high, much the same as in the Mini market. I know a little while back several people had commented that they were seeing an increased interest in their Over division ponies--and those Over division ponies are too tall to ever show as Miniatures--so I'm not convinced that values on ponies have gone down. I know that prices are down at some of the sales, but that isn't just ponies, that also applies to the Minis at those same sales, and in many cases that is economy/recession related.

 

[Songcatcher]

Well we read that Bond Tiny Tim

and years and years ago a dwarf, which we are trying to better the miniature horses to have good conformation.

Miniature Horse - The term “Miniature Horse” was created in the 1970s because some breeders of midget ponies felt that a more deceptive name would make them more salable and desirable. Coining the term "miniature horse” is said to have been a marketing ploy by breeders, and the ancestors of many Miniature Horses were from the same midget ponies of the McCoy stud. The early Miniature horse breeders in America bred extensively with genetic dwarf horses such as the popular stud Bond Tiny Tim, a 19-inch tall dwarf horse that sired hundreds of offspring. This indigenous dwarfism has led to widespread birth defects and the creation of hundreds of tiny horses with serious health problems.

If anyone is interested here is a link about him below:

http://www.theminiaturehorse.com/historical/bondtinytim.htm

That is true, but using the dwarfs did not make the "breed" smaller. Using dwarfs DID add widespread birth defects and serious health problems. If the dwarfs had not been used, the small size could still have been achieved by selective breeding without the dwarf gene.

Take a look at the 36 AMHA registered foals of Bond Tiny Tim. None of them are as small as Tiny Tim, and one of them measured 33 inches. Who knows how many were full blown dwarfs. Many of those mares he was bred to produced foals that outgrew the mare. My position is that Tiny Tim did nothing to downsize well proportioned horses, but did sire some small dwarfs. At that time, some breeders thought that was acceptable. Had those mares been bred to stallions of similar size (assuming the mare and prospective stallion carried no dwarf genes)They would likely have produced foals of similar size without the dwarf gene. Hindsight is 20/20.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Have they really? From what I've seen there are several lines of Shetlands that look very much like what I think of as a "typical" Miniature...if I just saw them somewhere & no one told me what they were registered as, I would take them for Miniatures, not Shetlands. There are a few Miniatures (no ASPC papers) that could be mistaken for Shetlands--I've seen a few of those. And then there are those ponies--most often the taller ones--that are quite obviously Shetland and not Miniatures...and one of those is what I would like to have in Miniature size!

Part of the Classic Shetland Standard of Perfection goes something like "There is a broad diversity of types within the Classic Shetland..." and it goes on to base that on "form follows function". Why could we not have this same diversity of type in a Miniature Standard of Perfection while at the same time giving us a more definitive description of the animal we should be breeding for?

 

[JWC sr.]

Fran,

Both AMHR and AMHA are making steps towards what they think will enhance and/or move the registry to where they can be considered a breed. By a number of things which I may or may not agree with, but to me that is their intent below are a couple of examples:

1. Closing of the registry by AMHA and allowing no more hardshipping after I think it is 2011.

2. AMHR has already closed it books to all but a select few horses of other registries.

While I personally have a problem with the approach in several different ways that is in essence what they are doing, additionally there are a number of ill conceived notions about control of pricing, numbers of horses etc. etc. that has gone into those decisions. Which I have taken a piece of in the past and made my thoughts very well known about them.

The one thought I will add is that the poster that was talking about the term "Miniature Horse" being a marketing ploy in the beginning hit things exactly on the nail head. You have to give the founders credit it sure has worked, look at the fervor in this conversation alone after all these years. LOL

Actually they are all more than likely chuckling at all of us taking ourselves (including myself) so durn serious. After all they are still just small and in some cases extra small equine.

 

[MiLo Minis]

Fran,

Both AMHR and AMHA are making steps towards what they think will enhance and/or move the registry to where they can be considered a breed. By a number of things which I may or may not agree with, but to me that is their intent below are a couple of examples:

1. Closing of the registry by AMHA and allowing no more hardshipping after I think it is 2011.

2. AMHR has already closed it books to all but a select few horses of other registries.

While I personally have a problem with the approach in several different ways that is in essence what they are doing, additionally there are a number of ill conceived notions about control of pricing, numbers of horses etc. etc. that has gone into those decisions. Which I have taken a piece of in the past and made my thoughts very well known about them.

The one thought I will add is that the poster that was talking about the term "Miniature Horse" being a marketing ploy in the beginning hit things exactly on the nail head. You have to give the founders credit it sure has worked, look at the fervor in this conversation alone after all these years. LOL

Actually they are all more than likely chuckling at all of us taking ourselves (including myself) so durn serious. After all they are still just small and in some cases extra small equine.

I hope you are not saying that if they were full size horses or ponies they would be taken more seriously? They may have started out as someone's genious marketing ploy but they have, as many things tend to, snowballed into something rather huge and also rather equitable which has gotten away on them and I see them scrambling to try to get them back. The simple solution would be for them to create a Miniature Shetland division in their shows and registry allowing those of us in the Miniature Horse registry's to carry on with our Miniature Horses and those that want Miniature Shetlands to have a place to show them as well separate from the AMHR or AMHA. We could then choose to either open our registry back up and write a specific breed standard or close our registry to hardshipping creating a Miniature Horse breed as it is (which I think is premature).

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Did anybody go to the breeders committee during Nationals? And what was that discussion like? I didn't get to go because of class. John are they wanting to close the registry for AMHA and Fabella registeries? I couldn't understand from the proposals but thats what I got.