Could someone please explain hardshipping to me

[JWC sr.]

Lori,

personally I agree with your stance on closing the registry, I do believe that it is premature to close the registry, but I am not in a position to make that call. I do't agree with you that there needs to be a separate shetland mini division though. Inclusion is the key that has made R as strong as it is and anything done to divide or limit us is a mistake on the part of the registry in MHO.

As far as making the statement that if they were big horses they would be taken more seriously, I in no way meant to slight what we all do. If so I would not have invested 25+ years, literally 10's of thousands of dollars in equipment. barns etc and yet even more money well up in the 6 fiqures to raise, improve and showcase these little guys. If I had I would be a bigger fool than I am.

We have lived and breathed mini's and in the last 3 years shetlands for a long time. Not sure what gave you that idea, but but I do at least laugh at myself sometime when I get so passionate about them. When some others aren't. Which I guess I can somewhat understand in light of the way we as a group tend to carry on sometimes.

JMS, Yes AMHA is slated to close in either 2011 or 2012 as a by law change was passed several years ago to that effect.

Hope that answers your question!!!

 

[OhHorsePee]

Thank you John for clarifying! There are times where I just need a little more to really understand where someone is coming from.

I still do not get the huge hate for ponies and I will give an open invitation to anyone who would like to come play with ours to please do so. Come in the pasture with me and you will be loved on by them. Everyone of them are easy catch and handles. Is this a form of shetlaphobia or is this the same as where some people think that all dogs in a certain breed are bad? If you train an animal to be controllable and loving then that is exactly what you will have.

 

[stormy]

As all of us have said before this is not about hating ponies, I raised shetlands for many years but decided miniature horses were the way I wanted to go, I prefered the Miniature horse look and still do. We are not Shetland haters, no one has said they hate shetlands ever...over and over it has been stated we appreciate shetlands, enjoy seeing them as shetlands, like watching the high stepping action, just don't want to raise them ourselves!

WHAT WE ARE ABOUT IS PRESERVING THE MINIATURE HORSE!! Having a place for both. Appreciating both as seperate registries and types.

(I could just as easily point the finger the other way and say what is up with the Shetland breeders that they so hate the miniature horse they want to completly wipe them out of the registry!)

 

[OhHorsePee]

(I could just as easily point the finger the other way and say what is up with the Shetland breeders that they so hate the miniature horse they want to completly wipe them out of the registry!)

Stormy, I have never seen ANY shetland breeder ever say that. Not once! I have minis and love them just as much as my ponies. There are quite a few shetland owners/breeders that have minis as well. I just do not hear them say bad stuff about minis at all.

 

[Songcatcher]

Stormy, I have never seen ANY shetland breeder ever say that. Not once! I have minis and love them just as much as my ponies. There are quite a few shetland owners/breeders that have minis as well. I just do not hear them say bad stuff about minis at all.

Wish I had a dollar for every time I have read on this MINIATURE HORSE forum where someone has said, "I want a horse that is big enough to really do something."

 

[stormy]

So lets just please leave that out of future discussions, this is not about hating one breed/type or the other breed/type. This is about liking and enjoying differant types and wanting to preserve them and have them seen as equally valuable within their respective registries.

I would not want to see Shetlands changed to look like Miniature horses...I like the Shetland look on a Shetland, as a Shetland. Neither do I want to see the Miniature horse turned into a Shetland...they are unique and should be allowed to remain uniquely differant (and appreciated for that differance that has made them so popular as a breed and brought so many new people into ASPC/AMHR).

Just an aside I was thinking of last night. Next weekend I will be going to a huge draft horse show. All draft breeds will be competing both as seperate breeds and together in hitch classes. All breeds are judged together in the hitch classes and believe me there is a lot of difference between a Percheron hitch and a Shire hitch yet all will be judged on there individual merits not on one "type" and the best hitch of whatever type will win. Nice concept, being able to appreciate all types individually and together while valueing the differances and uniqueness of each.

 

[Watcheye]

So lets just please leave that out of future discussions, this is not about hating one breed/type or the other breed/type. This is about liking and enjoying differant types and wanting to preserve them and have them seen as equally valuable within their respective registries.

I would not want to see Shetlands changed to look like Miniature horses...I like the Shetland look on a Shetland, as a Shetland. Neither do I want to see the Miniature horse turned into a Shetland...they are unique and should be allowed to remain uniquely differant (and appreciated for that differance that has made them so popular as a breed and brought so many new people into ASPC/AMHR).

Just an aside I was thinking of last night. Next weekend I will be going to a huge draft horse show. All draft breeds will be competing both as seperate breeds and together in hitch classes. All breeds are judged together in the hitch classes and believe me there is a lot of difference between a Percheron hitch and a Shire hitch yet all will be judged on there individual merits not on one "type" and the best hitch of whatever type will win. Nice concept, being able to appreciate all types individually and together while valueing the differances and uniqueness of each.

I like what Stormy has to say.

 

[Reble]

That is true, but using the dwarfs did not make the "breed" smaller. Using dwarfs DID add widespread birth defects and serious health problems. If the dwarfs had not been used, the small size could still have been achieved by selective breeding without the dwarf gene.

Ok, I am willing to learn, what do I tell these people that ask how did they get so small to get the miniature horse years ago?

 

[~Lisa~]

(I could just as easily point the finger the other way and say what is up with the Shetland breeders that they so hate the miniature horse they want to completly wipe them out of the registry!)

Stormy I have never heard anyone say that either...why would they -without the majority of money coming in from AMHR ASPC would be up a creek without a paddle

That has nothing to do with preferring one over the other that is nothing but a plain and simple- black and white fact- although I am sure that will be lost on the few that will come jump on what I say LOL

ANY MEMBER can call the office and speak to Joe and request the same financial info packet we will be given at Convention. It shows how much money is brought in thru AMHR registrations and transfers and how much was spent on Nationals and how much was brought in from ASPC registration and transfers as well as Congress.

It also shows what is spent on promotion-the Journal as well as other things. Pretty informative.

Reble- I am not a genetic expert by any means so do not know if this statement I am going to repeat is based in truth or not.

I have always heard that the use of dwarves in early breeding programs did enable the decreasing of size to happen much quicker. So perhaps it did not make the breed but again just how it was explained to me is that it helped reduce size a lot faster?

 

[OhHorsePee]

Stormy I have never heard anyone say that either...why would they -without the majority of money coming in from AMHR ASPC would be up a creek without a paddle

That has nothing to do with preferring one over the other that is nothing but a plain and simple- black and white fact- although I am sure that will be lost on the few that will come jump on what I say LOL

ANY MEMBER can call the office and speak to Joe and request the same financial info packet we will be given at Convention. It shows how much money is brought in thru AMHR registrations and transfers and how much was spent on Nationals and how much was brought in from ASPC registration and transfers as well as Congress.

It also shows what is spent on promotion-the Journal as well as other things. Pretty informative.

Reble- I am not a genetic expert by any means so do not know if this statement I am going to repeat is based in truth or not.

I have always heard that the use of dwarves in early breeding programs did enable the decreasing of size to happen much quicker. So perhaps it did not make the breed but again just how it was explained to me is that it helped reduce size a lot faster?

I would love to know that number, Lisa. I would also like to know how much revenue comes in from people hardshipping ASPC ponies to AMHR as well.

FB

 

[Reble]

Reble- I am not a genetic expert by any means so do not know if this statement I am going to repeat is based in truth or not.

I have always heard that the use of dwarves in early breeding programs did enable the decreasing of size to happen much quicker. So perhaps it did not make the breed but again just how it was explained to me is that it helped reduce size a lot faster?

Thanks Lisa. that is what I have also been told, and as I try to tell people dwarfs do not have good conformation, so we have tried to better our miniatures.

I also tell them, they are not a breed they go my size only. AMHA 34" and under & AMHR 38" AND UNDER

 

[~Lisa~]

I would love to know that number, Lisa. I would also like to know how much revenue comes in from people hardshipping ASPC ponies to AMHR as well.

FB

Well Fran I am sure you will get your copy at Convention or like I said call Joe after Convention and you will be able to see for yourself

 

[Reble]

AMHR has a Standard of Perfection not a breed discription.

I do not believe it will ever be a breed being we will always be going by height.

That is what I like about these little guys.

Just would like to add, you either join them, or stay with what you like.

 

[Songcatcher]

Ok, I am willing to learn, what do I tell these people that ask how did they get so small to get the miniature horse years ago?

Quite simply by selectively breeding the smallest to the smallest over a long period of time. Using dwarfs may have quickly reduced size by creating more dwarfs, but not in creating properly conformed horses.

 

[Mominis]

Is there anywhere on the web that a person can find out how many horses that are registered with AMHR actually show? When I talked to the secretaries at Nationals, it seemed that the show had well over 1800 individual horse entries. It would be neat to find out what % of those that do show hold both ASPC and AMHR papers.

I say this because I have been told that AMHR piggybacks the ASPC quite a bit. In fact, this was cited to me as the reason that the pony people don't gripe about the minis like the mini people do about the ponies. Now, with those numbers in mind, I wonder what the change would be if all horses who are ASPC/AMHR were forced into Mini-ASPC classes. How would that effect the futurity money? How would that effect the Nationals entries? How would that effect resale values on the non-ASPC minis? How would that effect the prestige of a National title?

I am new to all this, you guys know that. But what I have noticed is that in the Journal and on this site in the banner ads, most of the advertisers have ASPC/AMHR horses. Those farms are promoting and generating sales with the new people coming into the breed. I can say that from experience. lol If the primary advertisers and leading farms put those kinds of dollars into ASPC rather than AMHR, where would that leave the AMHR? Also, there are so many people who hold office with AMHR that are also breeders of the ASPC/AMHR horse, would they take their expertise and move over to the ASPC shows were the AMHR to 'kick them out?' Of course they would. I think that separating the two would have much further reaching consequences than just lowering the number of entries.

The yearling over colts at Nationals was a 52 horse class, for an example. How many of those guys were double registered horses? How many breeders of those horses would abandon ship and move over to ASPC with their horses? That's a nice chunk of change that AMHR would lose in one fell swoop.

I can say that I wouldn't sell my horses or change what I'm doing. I would just go to a market that was more friendly to the type of horse that I own...the ASPC/AMHR horse. Now, I'm not a breeder nor do I wish to be. I am a gelding owner and I pride myself on owning high quality geldings. I think that the gelding market is very important to any breed. If there's no market for geldings then there are thousands of stallions standing around breeding Lord-knows-what and depleting the overall quality of the breed.

 

[JWC sr.]

Good for you with the high quality geldings, at some point folks will realize just how great geldings are in this industry. Dependable, steady, beautiful and easy to work with are all adjectives that come to my mind when I think of the geldings I saw at nationals.

As far as your questions are concerned, we won the two year old futurity class with Rhapsody's Majestic Reign who is a registered shetland and AMHR stallion we own. This was his third year to win the futurity for us. His mother is a tiny National champion also. If I remember right she was a national champion in the under class a few years ago. And her small size was one of the reasons we bought him as a weanling. He will be going into the breeding pen this coming year which we are excited about in our continuing quest to produce small (less than 34")perfect horses with movement. He will primarily bred to AMHA/AMHR double registered horses. We have a few on the ground from other crosses that I would defy anyone to pick out of the herd as shetland crosses or as some call it straight mini's. In a lot of cases you cannot tell the difference within the herd. We have been breeding for years to produce a refined, quality horse and this is just another step in that direction.

As far as the mini's supporting the entire registry, from what I know the minis do in fact produce the vast majority of the income for the registry. But with that said, without the original registry and some of the founders foresight we would not even have a mini registry. So I do not begrudge anything along that line myself personally. ASPC and then later AMHR is the oldest and most widely used registry for mini's and the key to their success is again inclusion, not exclusion as I always say.

 

[MiLo Minis]

I like what Stormy has to say.

ME TOO!!!

It seems that every time this subject comes up Shetland people immediately jump in and say "oh why do you hate Shetlands so?!" I DON'T! I just think that having them forced down our throats by eliminating hardshipping of any breed but Shetland is changing the face of our Miniatures and I am not entirely sure I like the direction it is heading. Am I alone? NO I am not and I would like to know where the majority stands as it is my opinion that the registry should be directed by the majority and not just a few. Changing the thread to a "why do you hate Shetlands" deal takes away from the actual intent of the thread. Several people have said they own both Shetlands and Miniatures and they seem to be able to recognize them as the separate animals that they are. Could we just for the sake of this discussion pretend the only breed allowed to be hardshipped in is Connemara's for instance? I don't hate them either!

My suggestion for the ASPC to have a Miniature division does not necessarily mean that I feel Shetlands should be excluded from the Miniature registry - it is just an interim solution until we the AMHR membership decide what direction we should be taking with our registry. I feel that it is premature for us to have a closed registry but I also don't feel we should be forced in the Shetland direction only. With the inclusion of many other breeds over the years I like the result of how the Miniature Horse has evolved and would like to see it continue to do so.

The Classic Shetland has "a broad diversity of type" to allow "form to follow function" and yet they are a breed. I could see the Miniature Horse following this example and still be their own separate breed.

I would like to see a more accurate breed description and a fully open registry for all types under 38" for at least a few more years.

"As far as making the statement that if they were big horses they would be taken more seriously, I in no way meant to slight what we all do. If so I would not have invested 25+ years, literally 10's of thousands of dollars in equipment. barns etc and yet even more money well up in the 6 fiqures to raise, improve and showcase these little guys. If I had I would be a bigger fool than I am." I didn't really think you did John

but I didn't want anyone else to think that either. I think the registry needs to stop laughing, give us some respect and listen to what their members have to say

 

[Reble]

listen to what their members have to say

Try a poll here and see what most want?

 

[Mominis]

I would be very interested in seeing a poll done here with regard to this issue too. Would someone please start one? If I knew more about the topic, I'd do it, but I think it's better left in the hands of someone with more than a few months in the breed under their belt lol

 

[MiLo Minis]

I would be very interested in seeing a poll done here with regard to this issue too. Would someone please start one? If I knew more about the topic, I'd do it, but I think it's better left in the hands of someone with more than a few months in the breed under their belt lol

I don't personally feel this is the place to activate a poll regarding this subject. Although this is a huge, wonderful, and well read forum only a very small percentage of our registry's membership are actually active on this forum. I don't feel it would give a true picture of the memberships feelings either way. It needs to be done through the registry and sent to each and every member.