Any "Brown" horses out there

[Miniequine]

One of my mares.. b/w pinto... I think is really a brown.

I just read that agouti is what produces "brown"

If that is so, they can produce a bay?

If you have a brown horse,, please post pictures.

I have tested my mare for everything except agouti.

Now I think I will.

~Sandy

 

[valshingle]

I am not one of the color experts, but I believe there is no such thing as a 'brown' horse. They are either bay (EE or Ee with agouti ) or a form of chestnut (ee, no agouti). I have what I thought was a seal brown, but testing showed that she is bay. The darker chestnuts are usually known as liver chestnut.

Ok you color experts - flame away!

 

[Katiean]

Actually, AMHA has a picture of a "BROWN" horse. Go to registration and click COAT COLOR CHART. There under BROWN you will see a BROWN horse. However, I belive I do have a BROWN APPY. Tell me what you think.

You can see at the bottom of that page on the AMHA web site a BROWN APPY.

 

[Matt73]

Actually, AMHA has a picture of a "BROWN" horse. Go to registration and click COAT COLOR CHART. There under BROWN you will see a BROWN horse. However, I belive I do have a BROWN APPY. Tell me what you think.

You can see at the bottom of that page on the AMHA web site a BROWN APPY.

It's really small, but he looks like either a liver chestnut or silver black to me

 

[Miniequine]

I am not one of the color experts, but I believe there is no such thing as a 'brown' horse. They are either bay (EE or Ee with agouti ) or a form of chestnut (ee, no agouti). I have what I thought was a seal brown, but testing showed that she is bay. The darker chestnuts are usually known as liver chestnut.
Ok you color experts - flame away!

Thanks... from testing, I know my mare is Black Ee , not cream, not silver

Her mane and tail are jet black. Her coat color is mostly flat brown. She does have black

spots.... no brown around muzzle like a bay, but the center portion of her face is brown, the sides black. mmmmm

I can't figure out What color she is!

I'll try to get some photos tomorrow.

 

[valshingle]

As I understand it, agouti is what makes a black based horse (EE or Ee) a bay. So, without further testing, your horse is either black or bay. By the description, it sounds bay. What color are the parents? I'm not sure what the darker spots are without seeing them. Bays tend to have black 'points' where the legs, tips of ears, etc are black. Maybe you are seeing some of this.

 

[Charlotte]

The mare below is what I've always seen called 'brown'. She is registered as black by both registries I think, however when she is in natural coat in the early summer she has a black body with brownish muzzle, around eyes, flanks and elbows. Everyone who sees her calls her black, however she has had a bay colt by a black stallion so she has to carry agouti.

(please pardon the very distorted picture. Her head is as big as her hip!

)

This is in winter coat and very preg. Even though bleached out all over you can see the more brownish muzzle and flank.

And she's also homozygous tobiano.

Charlotte

p.s. Could we see pictures of your 'brown' mare?

 

[wildoak]

My understanding of a bay has always been that they have black points - can you have a bay without points, or does that change the description? I also have what I have called a brown appaloosa mare - she was just brown and has colored as she has aged, but no black points. I should probably have her tested just to satisfy my curiosity. Had a seal brown QH mare years ago too with no black aside from mane & tail.

Jan

 

[Miniequine]

This is Panda last spring, before she was clipped.

After clipping,, she remained the same color, and

she is now the exact same mud brown!

edited to ad... Checking the stud books,,, her dam's dam is recorded as "Brown"

 

[Becky]

Here is a website with a good description of brown horses and what causes it. Horse Genetics - Brown Horses

 

[Jill]

Destiny's color is smokey silver black, however, to look at him, he's a really cool brown. I've never seen another horse who has his actual color...

 

[maestoso]

Horses that look brown are either smokey blacks or dark bays. Just like with other colors, there are different shades of bay, and sometimes it's so dark it's hard to tell. Smokey black(cream gene on black) looks brown.

Your filly's dam is definitely a bay pinto(black with agouti). So if she's bay, she got it from the dam. Aristocrat is black, which can't hide agouti, meaning he doesn't carry it. It is possible that Aristocrat carried cream, though I've never seen any examples of his offspring with cream, but I believe his sire was a buckskin, so he could have got the cream from him.

Even though your filly and Aristocrat both look black, they can carry cream, an example of this is Little Kings Black Velvet, who carries cream. But if you look at his pics, he looks coal black.

It is also possible that your filly is just growing a dull black coat. I have seen her in the show ring and she's a very pretty black

so it might just be that her long coat looks dull.

I would test for cream and agouti if you want to know for sure. If she comes up negative for both, shes just black. Sometimes you can tell a black horse carrying cream because they have the cream colored fuzz in their ears, but not always.

Either way, she's pretty.

 

[maestoso]

Just did some more research. Aristocrat had a solid bay sire, Rowdy's Hot Shot, definitely no cream there. His dam was Orion bred and listed as brown, which means she was either bay or smokey black, but then again it's tricky because often colors are listed wrong . . . I'd say test

 

[Katiean]

Ok, not to hijack the thread but, I had a QH/Appy mare that was what most would say was bay. She had a rich red coat. She had black laced ears and black on her muzzle. Here is what threw me. Her legs were a mouse gray/brown and she had white feet (not striped). Usually they have black feet when they are a bay unless they have a white marking like a sock or something. She only had a star on her forhead. She had 2 chestnut sisters and when she was bred to a very dark (black bay) Bay she had a chestnut foal. I have never seen before or since a bay that had such weard light brown/gray legs that should have been black. What would she have been? Sorry, I don't have any pictures of her.

 

[maestoso]

What color was your horse's mane and tail? It sounds like she was a silver bay, which would give her the mouse gray legs and black laced ears and muzzle. Silver bay has a rich red coat color, and silver often causes white feet.

just google silver bay horses and you'll find lots of images of different shades of silver bay.

 

[Miniequine]

Horses that look brown are either smokey blacks or dark bays. Just like with other colors, there are different shades of bay, and sometimes it's so dark it's hard to tell. Smokey black(cream gene on black) looks brown.
Your filly's dam is definitely a bay pinto(black with agouti). So if she's bay, she got it from the dam. Aristocrat is black, which can't hide agouti, meaning he doesn't carry it. It is possible that Aristocrat carried cream, though I've never seen any examples of his offspring with cream, but I believe his sire was a buckskin, so he could have got the cream from him.

Even though your filly and Aristocrat both look black, they can carry cream, an example of this is Little Kings Black Velvet, who carries cream. But if you look at his pics, he looks coal black.

It is also possible that your filly is just growing a dull black coat. I have seen her in the show ring and she's a very pretty black

so it might just be that her long coat looks dull.

I would test for cream and agouti if you want to know for sure. If she comes up negative for both, shes just black. Sometimes you can tell a black horse carrying cream because they have the cream colored fuzz in their ears, but not always.

Either way, she's pretty.

Hi Matt

Thanks. I have tested her for cream. Neg. I will test for agouti.. I will be very surprised if she

is bay. Her dam is not a bay (according to papers and her owner)

I have 3 b/w mares. I can see sun fade.. which reddish... Panda is MUDD brown. WEIRD

I am thinking black. Just fun trying to figure it out.

~Sandy

 

[wingnut]

This is a picture of Izzy, my AMHR registered "black" horse, taken last summer in July at 14 months old. Mom is a "darker" black and sire is a buckskin pinto:

This was taken in October with the winter woolies coming in:

This head shot was taken last month:

This was last April when she was 10 months old and we had had her about a week:

Most people "not in the know" call her brown.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

There is one site and one alone, at present, that tests for Brown.

The Brown allele attaches to the Agouti, which is what is causing the confusion, and no, not all Brown horses are Bay or Smoky Black, or Black, it is not as cut and dried as that, not at all. Few things actually are!

So, Brown is shown by attaching t to the Agouti indicator, thus At.

The research behind this has not yet been published, for some fairly obscure reason, and I cannot guarantee the results as I have no personal experience of them, but yes, there most definitely is a test for Brown and yes, there most definitely is such a thing as a Brown horse.

To answer the "Do Bays have to have black legs?" question, no they do not have to have black legs, the legs of a Wild Bay, with only socks, would not appear to have any black on them at all, and a Wild Bay often seems to have Pangaré, anyway, which completely obscures the black legs!

 

[Charlotte]

Miniequine, I can tell you don't like that mud colored horse so it would be ok if you just shipped her on out here to Oklahoma.

I have room for 'mud'.

Charlotte

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Charly is registered as brown

He's not black, and he's not chestnut, nor bay.