A question for those ready to hang this "trainer"

[Christine]

i agree 100% with skipper This is what happens when you air your dirty laundry in the public eye...yes measuring should be a concern with the amha memebers but this incidnet should not be, you got HER side of this story and she left some important info out and NO one questioned it these horses WERE listed several days before this class begin so why wait 15 min before the class starts to protest? I am sorry but if the trainer had shown the horse and he lost or did not do well then they would be complaining that the trainer did not show the horse to the best of their ability. I am sorry but as long as there are winners and loosers in this world there will always be someone complaining about something....yes this 29.5 horse should have been measured properly but all this other junk in here.......We are all so egar to jump on to the band wagon and take what is written of who we assume we know or are our forum friends and do not think the people involved we too may know or are friends we have actually met at shows and know the character of we are only hearing one side if you want to go after someone go after the people who measure the horse they seem to be forgotten here this should be their fault if they had done their job this would not be an issue!! I dont care how intimidated they are by big trainers and important horses, do it and do it right and there you go....I think should this matter been handled when the horses were added to the list days before the show and not 15 min prior to the show this would not have made the trainer so upset......there may be more here than meets the eye.........

 

[Minimor]

Umm,come on, anyone who is determined to show a 29.5" horse in a 28" & under class is probably going to get upset when someone protests that entry, regardless of whether it is protested 3 days before or 15 minutes before the class.

I frankly think that it should be allowed for someone to file a protest after the class enters the ring. If the protested horse is found to be in violation of the height limit after the class, he loses his placing (if any) & does NOT get to go back in & show in his proper height class. Owner/trainer/horse doesn't just get caught cheating, they get punished for it. Champion & Reserve should get publicly measured immidiately after the placings are announced, and again, a horse over the allowed height be disqualified on the spot, no second chance in the next class.

Just because the measurements were posted 3 days ahead of the class doesn't, to me, mean anyone should have to protest immediately. I actually commend this person for taking the time to look at the entries, figure out where each horse had shown all year, decide if she should indeed file a protest and which horse(s) to protest. Tells me she thought about it some & it wasn't just a knee-jerk reaction to seeing the class list.

Anything I've said on any of these threads has been general in regards to my opinion of cheating on measurements. The officials are at fault for allowing handlers to dictate what size they measure any horse in at. The owner/trainers are even more at fault for trying to cheat in the first place & I say that not caring if the persons in this case are forum members or not, if they are/aren't anyone I personally know. If it were my very best friend I would say to her "if you are going to cheat then expect to get caught. Now that you have been caught, suck it up & get over it."

I for one did not know who any of the parties involved were. Now thanks to Skipper I do know who the protested horse, his owner & his trainer is. I'm very sorry for the owners loss of the horse the following day--that's very sad.

As for discussing this matter here, any time something like this goes on, there's going to be talk. If people aren't talking about it publicly like here on this forum, you have to know they are going to be talking about it privately, behind everyone's backs. Personally I get as upset by what I know/imagine is being said behind my back as I am by something said publicly. I actually have more respect for those who will speak up publicly. I personally think the entire thing is very unfortunate--this problem should never have been allowed to come to this point. Rules are in place for a reason, and if everyone tried to follow the rules, life would be so much more pleasant for all of us!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

ok took all of this out.. .

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I couldn't quote this but this is from the protesters letter there own words..

*********************************************************************

However, we did look at who the three horses were. One we didn't

have any information on, but an individual who knew the horse said

he would easily measure in. With no further information on him we let

that one go. The second horse had been showing in the taller class all

year, winning many grands, however the owner told me he was only 1/2"

over. Most people can trim hooves, etc. to take care of that.

So we let that horse go which was a mistake since his permanent papers

show a height of 29 1/2" on record at AMHA.

The third horse had not only been showing all year in the taller class,

but

had won a championship at one of the Regional Shows. It was listed

in the MHW current issue. The facts were right there.

****************************************************************

To me this is my biggest issue with this letter being public, this is THERE SIDE of course but this is also implying that the other 2 were cheaters, they chose not to protest them to let it go yet didn't choose to let it be gone.. they chose to bring it out in a public forum so that the owners of those 2 horses which i am assuming were the winners or we wouldn't even be discussing any of this period (which isa whole other subject) anyways that those horses and wins would be out in the public eye and be tainted.

Bottom line for me is this.. if you want a fair playing ground that is one thing then make it one and protest everyone so that EVERYONE has a right to re measure and put it to rest one way or another.. dont come back AFTER THE FACT AND IN WRITING PUBLICLY put it out there that the other 2 must have been cheating OK or in this instance the other ONE must have been cheating and put the owner of that horse in a position to feel the need to defend there ethics there win and there horse AFTER THE FACT -.. bottom line is you had the chance to protest it you chose not to LET IT GO do not come back later in a public forum and cry cheater this protester clearly stated we let it go IT WAS A MISTAKE implying this person cheated and did wrong.

Everyone opted to let that go how would you feel if that was your horse that won? If perhaps you wanted to come and share the news and saw this crap about YOU AND YOUR ETHICS? and instead felt you had to DEFEND YOURSELF, YOUR HORSE, AND YOUR WIN.

And just maybe someone else who sees that side of this came to post the same thing and yet was told we dont know you your opinion means squat yet..

I am not saying they didn't have the right to protest of course they did... and they did such and the horse was bumped back up and the issue brought to the forefront. and that is a good thing .

BUT that doesn't IMO give them the right to come back and in writing call someone else a cheater or OK lets get technical and say they IMPLIED this person was a cheater... when they chose not to protest and make them defend there win

THAT IS WRONG PERIOD in fact it is more then wrong it is shady- in my book anyway.

** now lets be clear i have no problem with them protesting the height of a horse and again bringing this issue up and out of the closet.. none at all that is there right and of course they can and should do it if they feel it is needed.. my issue is strictly with the mudslinging after the fact if you opt to let something go and NOT use your right to protest then let it go

 

[SunQuest]

I have to agree with Minimor. The people filing the protest were seriously thinking about this. While the enteries were posted in advance and it would have been nice to give a little more warning, it does show to me that the person filing the protest thought this out and found the evidence that they thought they needed to support their claim instead of just making accusations.

Like Minimor, I didn't know anyone involved. So my thoughts were never connected with any one individual. Now I know much more than I would like to know about who it was.

And I do think this is an issue for all AMHA members as this effects how the general public looks at all of us as an organization. The biggest names which are normally the "professionals" of our industry represent us to the rest of the public. They are the ones that should be setting the examples for the whole organization to follow and from the accounts that were posted this whole situation was in bad taste from all sides when it came to the professionals. I don't fault either owner at this point as they paid professionals to show their horses in the appropriate class for that horse and this issue is really about the trainers doing wrong and the AMHA having people who don't follow the rules on measuring.

I can only imagine if there were children present and they saw this whole episode no matter who is right or wrong.

Again, I don't care who the individuals were that were involved. The simple facts are that a horse was not shown when there was a contract to do so that was backed by monies being already exchanged. (No one has denied this part of it.) The trainer was paid to show that horse and it should have been done unless that trainer would have been breaking the AMHA policies or other legal statutes. The rest of this should have been worked out afterwards in private between the parties involved, and NOT in public just before the class.

Lisa,

While your thoughts about protesting everyone is a good one, the issue becomes one of putting the money up to do so as I am under the impression that each horse that the protester had an issue with would be a seperate protest? I may be wrong on this line of thought though.

And I don't get the feeling that the person protesting was implying that the 2 she didn't protest were cheating. I get the feeling that there were several that she was comparing and that logically she ruled the 2 out as they are borderline. I think the reason that she said that in her post was to show that she wasn't singling out any one individual. It sounds like she was trying to be fair to all about the height.

 

[Dandy]

Lisa, I honestly don't see where the owner who made the protest has said the other two horses were cheating. I think she had every right to state her case on this forum since it was being openly discussed. The other people involved have the same right, and I am certain they are aware of all of this being out here. Yes, this is just her side of the story. But, hey thats what it should be, it's her side. I don't show registered shows, but I have been to enough farms and seen many "oversize" mares that were still being used for breeding among other things. This industry is not any different than others. Some people will always find a way to circumvent rules if they want to bad enogh. I agree something needs to be done about the measuring. I think (if her story is correct) that she did the right thing. I also think her trainer did the wrong thing. But, thats just my opinion, like everyone elses.......

 

[woodnldy]

Well, I have read through this thread over and over and as a TOTAL greenhorn on the showing I have to ask a question. If this has been going on for so long why haven't some of the judges had something to say?? Belinda could answer this for me i am sure. Are the judges not also aware of the rules??What qualifies a judge to be a judge for AMHA or AMHR?? Surely that much height difference would be obviose during the classes?? I realy hope someday to have a foal i can show(and i will probably ask Belinda's opinion since she lives closest)and I really hope they can get these questions and problems resolved. hmmm lead them under a height bar or something coming into class.laser measure against a board??

Cheryl

 

[Christine]

"Owner/trainer/horse doesn't just get caught cheating" once again we are assuming and this makes what????You assume the owner knew this, did you see the owner standing there when they measured the horse.....I am not speaking of the 29.5" horse that was WAY too over and I as an owner would have gone to my trainer and said this can not be right but if this horse was only over by .50 or so I would go ok as others here have

and just becuase a horse is perm'd at one height does that mean a trainer can not get those hooves smaller.....or for that matter they did not grow or the hoves did not get longer......pondering....I have a stallion purchased by a big farm who is perm'd at 32.5" and when he hopped off he must have had trailer growth as he is now 34.5..........so that is not always true there.......

I would have loved to hear when you get the two different people who measured the horse and the trainer together and what they all had to say about that but.......

now come on you think this woman had three days to get what she got in a matter of what 10 min and you think three days is what it took her to figure this out that ok I am going to protest right now 15 minuites before my class starts, I did not say this protest should not have been done or even done the day she saw it but she had three days to figure it out.....again as I said below I am sorry but if the trainer had shown the horse and he lost or did not do well then they would be complaining that the trainer did not show the horse to the best of their ability, but as long as there are winners and loosers in this world there will always be someone complaining about something.

 

[minimomNC]

I am not sure where everyone is getting that the protest was lodged 15 minutes before the class. If you go back and read carefully, they started this process earlier in the day, time enough to get a measurer, the trainers wife, the owner, paperwork filled out, confront the other trainer in the ring and outside the ring. The 15 minute thing is the amount of time before the class that the trainer dumped the horse. So he had to have known more than 15 minutes before the class, especially if he was told in the ring earlier. They filed this protest long before most of you think. No, not three days earlier but also not 15 minutes before the class either.

 

[tagalong]

I am not sure where everyone is getting that the protest was lodged 15 minutes before the class.  If you go back and read carefully, they started this process earlier in the day,  time enough to get a measurer, the trainers wife, the owner, paperwork filled out, confront the other trainer in the ring and outside the ring.  The 15 minute thing is the amount of time before the class that the trainer dumped the horse. So he had to have known more than 15 minutes before the class, especially if he was told in the ring earlier.  They filed this protest long before most of you think.  No, not three days earlier but also not 15 minutes before the class either.

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Thank you minimom - I was just about to post that very same information. Ironic, isn't it - that some berating those involved in these discussions for not having all the FACTS or not paying attention to the FACTS or not considering all sides of the issue (which most of us have) seem to have overlooked that.

Pot. Kettle. Black. *shrug*

There was much discussion and several trips to the office to meet with officials. In the final discussion with the official in charge (not office personnel who were very courteous) the exhibitor was told to 'try to file a protest and the official would immediately call the committee (show committee I assume) and the protest would not be allowed. The official said the show would have to wait while this took place and so a protest would not be allowed. My thoughts on this---the horse is right there available---how long would it take to measure him???? Then he could just stay right there and go into the next class that fit his height.

THAT ^^ is from the first page of the other Sad Day thread, where Charlotte mentioned another protest (not the one we have been discussing in this thread) that was planned - and then the exhibitor was advised that it would be disallowed etc. Perhaps THAT protest was not filed early enough according to the rules. Didn't Belinda also look into filing a protest about something?? You can bet that for every protest we may actually hear about that someone considered following through on... many more were looked into and simply shelved due to the hassle and the possible repercussions...

ETA: Perhaps protests could be kept ANONYMOUS until the close of the show on the day the protest was filed - with Show Officials handling the measuring and documentation. That would avoid repercussions and scenes that are disruptive...

Just a thought, anyway...

ETA2: honeycomb max - good post....

 

[Belinda]

Didn't Belinda also look into filing a protest about something??

I never had the first thought about a filing a protest !!! The one thing I did

have a fit over was the fact of passing by Center ring as I was leaving a class , and saw a Judge standing right there reading the Show Program !!!!

Yep the one with everyone's names and horses names listed

That has always been a rule that a Judge is not to Know the Name of the Exhibitors or horses prior to judging.

I went directly to someone on the show Rules committee and it was dealt with ASAP . They were in shock to find that this had happened also. And of course there were millions of reasons the book was there..

To answer Cheryls question is not the Judges place to decide the height of a horse once the animal is put before them to judge. Judges just assume ( which that is a lot at times ) that the horses have met the qualifications to be in that class. We are given a job and that is to judge what comes in the ring. We can not police all the rules of a Assoc. That is why most have Licensed Steward's who address any and all problems that come about from measuring to horse Abuse.

Belinda

 

[Kim]

I couldn't quote this but this is from the protesters letter there own words..*********************************************************************

However, we did look at who the three horses were. One we didn't

have any information on, but an individual who knew the horse said

he would easily measure in. With no further information on him we let

that one go. The second horse had been showing in the taller class all

year, winning many grands, however the owner told me he was only 1/2"

over. Most people can trim hooves, etc. to take care of that.

So we let that horse go which was a mistake since his permanent papers

show a height of 29 1/2" on record at AMHA.

The third horse had not only been showing all year in the taller class,

but

had won a championship at one of the Regional Shows. It was listed

in the MHW current issue. The facts were right there.

****************************************************************

To me this is my biggest issue with this letter being public, this is THERE SIDE of course but this is also implying that the other 2 were cheaters, they chose not to protest them to let it go yet didn't choose to let it be gone.. they chose to bring it out in a public forum so that the owners of those 2 horses which i am assuming were the winners or we wouldn't even be discussing any of this period (which isa whole other subject) anyways that those horses and wins would be out in the public eye and be tainted.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see where the protester has even tacitly implied that anyone other than the people in charge of the 29.5" horse were "cheaters". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read the protester's email as follows:

There were three horses that were late additions to the class, meaning that there were three horses that were entered in the class after the program was printed. The protester took it upon herself to find out who these horses were and to find out information on them, which is perfectly fine in my opinion. The first horse she did not know of, so she asked someone who did know the horse, and they said that that horse "would easily measure in" (quote taken from the protester's email). To me, that clearly says that that horse is NOT OVERSIZE and is therefore NOT A CHEATER.

Regarding the second horse, the protester was told by its owner that it was within 1/2 inch of the height limit. The protester, like most reasonable people, realized that a horse within 1/2 of the limit could easily measure in, depending on many factors. We all know that measurements vary. So, the protester chose not to protest this horse, as she was under the impression that it would most likely measure in. Again - NOT A CHEATER.

It was the third horse that the protester thought (for good reason since it had been showing in 28-30 all year) was well over 28 inches, and thus it is that horse that she chose to protest. And the protest was successful. The horse measured 29.5 inches the second time - AN INCH AND A HALF over the limit.

By continuing to denigrate the person who protested and by questioning their motives you are only encouraging people not to exercise their right to protest, which in turn encourages deception and deceit to proliferate. I, for one, am appreciative to the person who protested for having the courage to do so. I know that it really frustrates me when I'm lined up in a driving class and the horse beside me visibly towers over my 34" horse. I, on the other hand, cannot say that I have had this same courage. I have not exercised my right to protest, because as this person has so obviously found out, there are serious repercussions for doing so. WHY are people continuing to put this person down and questioning her ethics and motives for protesting an oversize horse? It's high time that AMHA cleaned up their act in a lot of respects, and this person should not be chastized for being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. To the person who protested: THANK YOU. To those of you who are putting her down for so doing, and saying that she never should have done so, you really should be ashamed of your lack of moral integrity.

edited for a typo

 

[Jill]

Danielle --

I just now saw that my "blindside the trainer" quote upset you. At the time, I didn't know about the reason the owner didn't tell the trainer beforehand. Reading their response, I think maybe they would have told him if they had it to do over, but of course, I don't know that is the case since I am not them. I understand now why they did it as they did, but it's still not what I would do. I would not take a big action like that without letting my trainer know first. The way I read it, up until the situation where the trainer wouldn't show the horse, that trainer didn't do anything "we" think is wrong (correct? I have read all this but there's a lot of different points of view). I think a lot of people believe I mean the trainer needed to "okay" the client protesting, which is NOT my opinion at all. He is the one in the ring and the one to take the initial heat. How would you feel if you get wind of this situation at the same time as the people who are outside your relationship with your client? I feel the client had a right to protest absolutely, but that it would have been better if the trainer was aware of the intentions.

Jill

 

[lvponies]

Kim.....Beautifully said!!!

 

[Buckskin gal]

So well said Kim. I think the protester should be given a pat on the back for standing up for what she thought was right rather than be accused of implying the others were cheating.

If someone is thinking about someones elses's feelings being hurt, perhaps they should consider how the protestor feels by being accused of implying the others were cheating! If the other two were not cheating, they can be proud of their wins but I don't in any way see how they should have their feelings hurt by what the protester explained on this forum. It did take courage for the protester to stand up for what she thought was right and more people need to have the same courage instead of putting people down for it. And I do hope that all winners will be measured in front of the audience, in the future, so this kind of thing does not happen over and over. JMHO

By continuing to denigrade the person who protested and by questioning their motives you are only encouraging people not to exercise their right to protest, which in turn encourages deception and deceit to proliferate. I, for one, am appreciative to the person who protested for having the courage to do so. I know that it really frustrates me when I'm lined up in a driving class and the horse beside me visibly towers over my 34" horse. I, on the other hand, cannot say that I have had this same courage. I have not exercised my right to protest, because as this person has so obviously found out, there are serious repercussions for doing so. WHY are people continuing to put this person down and questioning her ethics and motives for protesting an oversize horse? It's high time that AMHA cleaned up their act in a lot of respects, and this person should not be chastized for being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. To the person who protested: THANK YOU. To those of you who are putting her down for so doing, and saying that she never should have done so, you really should be ashamed of your lack of moral integrity.

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[minicount]

Well almost made it with out posting on this subject.

Here we have Owner A protest Trainer B's horse. Trainer B's protested horse fails to measure in, twice. Trainer B then goes on a tirade to Owner A's trainer. Trainer B takes his horse in height apporpriate class and wins Reserve. Owner A's horse doesn't leave the stall.

There are some "shades' of grey in there, maybe the horse should have been protested earlier, maybe the trainer should have been notified, maybe it should have been tried to be worked out before. However the horse SHOULD NOT have been in the class, Trainer B SHOULD NOT have acted like a bully and Owner A's trainer SHOULD HAVE shown the horse.

So squable about the maybes if you think it justifies the shoulds'.

The core of this thread, like all the others, is the system of measureing currently in place.

 

[minimomNC]

I personally think its time to drop the whole thing. Everything that can be said, has been and now its just being repeated over and over. People have made up their minds who is right and who is wrong. Regardless of what any of us think, its over. It's done.

Now is the time to take all of this energy and focus on what can be done to make sure it doesn't happen again. This should be a positive learning experience. So lets make is positive now. Start thinking about how you can as a member of AMHA or AMHR make things better.

All trainers have good days and all trainers have bad days. One mistake either way doesn't make them bad people. Heaven knows I have done things in my life that weren't alway right. And I am sure others on here have too, but it shouldn't be the only thing in your life you are remember by.

So as members step up to the plate and help make things right.

My first suggestion is already somewhere around the board. If you are part of a club putting on the show, watch the measuring. Have the approved pictures right there and make sure the rules are followed. Don't let anyone "slide" by. Make it fair for everyone. We all have to do our parts if we want this resolved for the breed.

 

[woodnldy]

Thanks Belinda,I didn't know the judges weren't even supposed to know the nameor horses owners. Makes sense tho when you think of it. Then the stewards should be watching also. It comesdown to the registry's(both of them) need to police their people a lot closer and stress the honesty thats needed in those doing the measuring. anyhow,Thanks again Belinda ! I have learned a lot from this forum and enjoy it no end. Keep up the good work everyone !

Cheryl

 

[tagalong]

I never had the first thought about a filing a protest !!!

My apologies Belinda - you are right - there are so many layers going on here that I got my wires crossed. I'm blonde. It happens.

And you are right - a judge has NO BUSINESS reading the class list ahead of time. If he/she wants to know the numbers of entries - ask the ring steward or the gate.

There are some "shades' of grey in there, maybe the horse should have been protested earlier, maybe the trainer should have been notified, maybe it should have been tried to be worked out before. However the horse SHOULD NOT have been in the class, Trainer B SHOULD NOT have acted like a bully and Owner A's trainer SHOULD HAVE shown the horse.

In a nutshell - you summed it up, minicount....

And Kim - we must share a brain... only you have the eloquent, well-spoken half....

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

She clearly said... The owner said he was 1/2 inch over we let that go but THAT WAS A MISTAKE the horse was 29 .50 in.. on his perm papers

Did you ever think that perhaps the integrity of someone else might be at stake here not just the integretiy of someone filing the protest.. (and not the person who was bumped up and protested) and that is the point i was trying to make ierhaps they BOTH deserve the respect of us admitting that perhaps just perhaps we dont know the entire story

saying the owner knew he was .50 over implies they tried to do something they shouldnt have.. but again t none of this really matters anymore bottom line is if you want something changed about the measuring discuss it with your directors and get something done and rules enforced that is the good out of all of this