A question for those ready to hang this "trainer"

[Angel2]

Get your flamethrower out, you'll probably want to use them.

This is the only response as to why the trainers have not responded. Why should they? What could either of them possibly gain, you have had your witch hunt, tarred & feathered both of them, with no first hand knowledge of what actually happened. I am in contact with one of the trainers involved, they sat down and drafted a response to this , after much thought and discussion, it was decided it was pointless. It is a no win situation on all 3 sides, where one would see reason, three would see a reason to start yet another thread.

The owner has been in touch with the trainer and regrets ever having had their side posted, this issue has been beat to death on more than one thread. All involved are in agreement that things should not have happened as they did, such is life. The owners are not bad people, and neither of the trainers are bad people. This is after all their business, they are attending to it and everyone personally involved wishes you would all attend to yours. As Mulligans Run stated, "he who is without sin, cast the first stone"

The measurement issue definately needs to be addressed, let's focus on that.

 

[victoria]

Well here in I have never seen a protest lodged prior to the class, with the way of thinking is that until that unqualified exhibit (either by age, hight, colour, etc) steps into the ring to be judged no rule has been broken, - if the protest is up held that horse is not able to show at that show striped of awards which are redistributed. however this leads to people saying oh I'll only protest it if the horse does well - which to my mind is wrong. if you think a horse is not the correct colour/age/height for the class regardless of where it places then you should put your money where your mouth is or don't moan about it.

Peronally I don't think those that are protested should react is poorly as they do at times (and yes I have been on both ends). If you have nothing to hide then it shouldn't be an issue and then the ringside moaning and rumours are put to rest. Until people feel they can protest the without being ostrasized afterwards they wont do it unless they have the intestinal fortitude to deal with the aftermath. I say good on those who will stand up for what they believe in...

 

[tagalong]

What could either of them possibly gain, you have had your witch hunt, tarred & feathered both of them, with no first hand knowledge of what actually happened. I am in contact with one of the trainers involved, they sat down and drafted a response to this , after much thought and discussion, it was decided it was pointless. It is a no win situation on all 3 sides, where one would see reason, three would see a reason to start yet another thread.

angel - rather than coming onto the board solely to berate & bash others... as you have done... it might have been better to simply state your opinion - offer your balanced non-partisan insight (most of us here are not aligned with any "side" - there are no "sides" as I said earlier - or did you even bother to read other posts?) and suggest solutions or ways to smooth things out for the future. And not accuse and sneer. There has been no witch hunt as you so gleefully assert. Did you want one? *confused* Hearing from other parties and clearing the air would be a good idea IMHO - as then the complaints about not hearing all sides would be silenced. But to each his own. God forbid some of us "little people" dare to have concerns... they will only be condemned. And don't even THINK of filing a protest - look at the nonsense and repercussions that will ensue. That message is being sent out loud and clear, I fear.

No flames here - this board is not even on the radar of internet forums that really get intense. Not even remotely close....

The measurement issue definately needs to be addressed, let's focus on that.

Uh huh. Well that IS what the main focus has been and what the root of the problem is - as if the measuring rules were followed - none of this would have even happened....

Maybe they should scrap the smaller size divisions of 2" increases - and merely go, by example, 30" and under... Over 30".... two divisions instead of four... and that might alleviate a lot of the sliding up and down and back and forth...

But then there is the matter of the 34" horses... that aren't.

And on it goes...

 

[Belinda]

I am posting one LAST MESSAGE FROM THE FAMILY THAT FILED THE PROTEST !

Then we will let this rest

As for the most part this subject has turn a little on the

Side of things. Most are NOT really reading some of the post and missing very important issues being brought up.

The whole intent of this subject was about the lax measuring practices we have had in the last year. And what can we as members of AMHA and AMHR /ASPC do to correct this.. but most subjects on this board that deal with controversy turn into Nasty name calling

and that will NEVER solve anything , we must all sit down and talk in calm voices with our Thinking caps in place... Measuring will never be an exact science given the places and way we have to measure..

But I will say that by measuring on the wither comes alot closer , I show my ponies all year and 99% of the time no matter where we are they measure the same or within a 1/4 " of what they did the last time by someone else.

So

let us all try and come up with a solution to this problem instead of all the

(( I just love these little faces ))

OK I am off my soap box !! LOL !

*******************************************************************

Hi Belinda,

I received a phone call saying that there was another

post from Angel2 on the thread about the trainer.

Since you posted my statement, I would very much

appreciate you posting this following message from

me regarding her post.

It says that the owner and trainer have been in contact

with one another. That is true, however, I never said

that I regretted posting on this site. I said that there

were many people speculating about the issues. I also

said that I don't criticize those that speculate at times,

because I have done that at times myself. I posted my

statement to give the facts as to what happened in our

circumstance when we protested.

There also seems to be confusion as to why the protest

was not done until the morning of the class. You do not

have the entire list of horses in a class until close of entries.

Three horses were added to the class after the premium

book was printed. All three horses were listed in the taller

class in the book.

We did not want to make any rash decision and protest on

a whim. We found out the facts before we made an

important decision that could effect others. We spoke

to the office staff more than once and looked at the

measurements posted. It takes time to do these things

and I do regret that some people continue to wonder

about our motives. We want things changed so that

things are done with integrity and fairness to everyone.

It is not our intent to hurt or destroy anyones reputation.

However, we have suffered consequences from doing just

what the AMHA rule book says to do. Even so, we are

hoping that something good comes from this. Speak up

and make changes for everyone. Make it fair, competive,

but enjoyable at the same time. Why should anyone come

home having gone through something like this. There are

many wonderful people in this organization and working

together all of you can make a difference.

I can't tell you how much your words of support

have meant to me.

Thank you Belinda for posting this message for me.

 

[Annetta]

I don't know if I've thrown any stones or not,

though since I've never tried to fudge the measurement on a horse I wish there was some way for me to give a starting push to a big old boulder that would roll down & permanently squash this measuring nonsense.

I just hope that the 'little people' can band together & get enough votes in to come up with some rule change that will help to prevent this sort of thing from being an issue in the future.

Thank you again Belinda for the update/clarification, and thank you angel2 for confirming that you can't believe everything you hear.

I still like the suggestion that Champ & Res. horses be measured at the gate & if found to be over the height limit then the horse is DQ'd & the awards are redistributed. Then the only issue would be ensuring that the measurement officials at the gate are honest & accurate, no matter who the horse's handler/owner/trainer may be or what they may say.

 

[tagalong]

Thank you, Belinda

... for your words of wisdom and your (and the protestor's) participation on this thread.... I am glad they did NOT regret posting here....

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I totally agree with measuring the Champ and Reserve on exit BUT, realistically, it ain't gonna happen

You have a situation where it would appear no-one has had the gumption to measure out a horse that is over an inch too big for it's class AND IT HAS NOT EVEN AT THAT POINT ENTERED THE RING, LET ALONE WON. Where do you think you are going to find people who would be willing to measure out a horses that has just gone Grand Champion???? First get the measuring sorted out- believe me uneven ground- slightly uneven- does NOT make an inch difference!!- then get the rules sorted out. As things stand, the rules necessary to get horses measured correctly are already in place. It states quite clearly that abuse from exhibitors will not be tolerated. Enforce the existing rules, insist that they are enforced, before you fudge the issue by trying to get them changed (which would appear to be a lost cause anyway)

 

[nootka]

Enforce the existing rules

Yay, and that is what this thread is all about.

It matters not WHO, WHERE, or anything in between, it only matters WHAT and the above^^ is exactly that.

I feel it extremely unfortunate that someone tried to use the process provided to help do exactly that and has been so terribly ostracized.

Is there anyone else here that thinks it is a grave mistake to make the protestor's name immediately known to the protestee? What purpose does this serve? I think all it did was lead to an ugly confrontation and a ripple effect which was truly tragic.

Liz M.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Of course the name of the protester should be private- over here that is a given!! If they choose to make themselves known that is another thing entirely. The whole procedure, if it happened as reported, has been badly mishandled. I do not give a FIG who the people with the overheight horse are, at any show, in any country. They can be President of America or the Queen of England for all I care, and overheight horse is an overheight horse. If this is really a problem then the measuring people need to employ a professional "Handler" for the day so all the horses are presented by the same person. But that is all unnecessary if the existent rules are just enforced, irrespective of whose horse it is.

And why aren't you in bed???????

 

[tagalong]

Is there anyone else here that thinks it is a grave mistake to make the protestor's name immediately known to the protestee? What purpose does this serve? I think all it did was lead to an ugly confrontation and a ripple effect which was truly tragic.

I agree, nootka!

As I said earlier, perhaps a protestor's name could be withheld until after the end of the show day of the class involved... as a way of sidetracking any incendiary repercussions that may occur when emotions are running high.

Show officials would handle the measuring... and deal with the people of the horse being protested against. As it should be. In a professional manner. And without the fear of potential altercations, intimidation and fall out that keeps many people silent...

One small step that could help out, anyway.... *shrug*

 

[Danielle_E.]

How would you feel if you get wind of this situation at the same time as the people who are outside your relationship with your client? I feel the client had a right to protest absolutely, but that it would have been better if the trainer was aware of the intentions.

Thanks Jill for your reply. I guess I see that in this case that this shouldn't touch the trainer/client relationship. The client hired the trainer to train THEIR horse and show THEIR horse. It is sad that a trainer would feel "the heat" in the first place. What this tells me is perhaps that "trainers" (and I mean SOME not ALL) are ultimately more concerned with potential clients acceptance, who might do exactly what the owners of the overhorse did, and concerned about his relationship with "trainers" that also are part of this. It doesn't change my feelings one bit in all of this. This trainer that didn't show this client's horse could have been a "champion" for "ethics" and "rules" and help bring things back the way they should be but instead it shows me the opposite. By what this trainer did and the other trainer, I wouldn't want either of them working for me. If you can't go into a class and play by the rules then your "wins" mean absolutely nothing!

 

[Nostalgia]

I wasn't going to comment on this issue about the trainer not showing a horse. First of all I was there and am very close to the situation, but that is besides the point.

The point is none of us where involved in the situation so why do we have to criticize those that were? I have my own personal feelings on this issue, but feel that they should be kept to myself. This forum was not intended to slander, create problems or a bad name for anyone, but for some reason this is one of the lengthiest posts and the mojority of the comments contain derogatory remarks about people.

I am sure that the person that filed the protest, the trainer who didn't show the protestors horse, and the owner and trainers of the protested horse (who deserves our sympathy) have been through enough! Everyone has made mistakes - and it is not our situation to hash out!

In my experience, both trainers involved are very honest and ethical people that strive to do the right thing.

I enjoy reading on this post and love to hear many stories, see many pictures, and learn about numerous postive experiences.

Natalie

 

[Danielle_E.]

Natalie, I don't know about most on this thread or not but I am going to be extremely straight forward and more than likely make enemies, so be it. I don't see where anyone was "slandered" etc. I am sorry if I am coming on strong here but speaking as one of the 12 that had a bogus and ridiculous lawsuit hanging over our heads here at lilbeginnings about a supposed "slander" and other stuff, I think before people throw out the word that you educate yourself as to what "slander" truly IS!!! Slander is basically saying someone did something "criminal", something that can be punished by law. Take for example if I were to say that my sister committed a fraudulent act and it wasn't true or if I said so and so is a "killer", get my meaning. Saying someone is lets say "stupid" or "cheated" is NOT slander so please don't throw words out like that. What you have here are people who are voicing their opinion on a situation that was mentioned. I don't know the identities of either owners or either trainers and I don't care to. What I do care about is correcting the problem with regards to an horse who is overtheheight limit for that class being allowed to show in that class in the first place. Those are issues that have been around for a long time and NEED to be RESOLVED.

I am sorry if I saw red when I read your post but that word "slander" set me off.

 

[Nostalgia]

Natalie,  I don't know about most on this thread or not but I am going to be extremely straight forward and more than likely make enemies, so be it.  I don't see where anyone was "slandered" etc.  I am sorry if I am coming on strong here but speaking as one of the 12 that had a bogus and ridiculous lawsuit hanging over our heads here at lilbeginnings about a supposed "slander" and other stuff, I think before people throw out the word that you educate yourself as to what "slander" truly IS!!! Slander is basically saying someone did something "criminal", something that can be punished by law.  Take for example if I were to say that my sister committed a fraudulent act and it wasn't true or if I said so and so is a "killer", get my meaning.  Saying someone is lets say "stupid" or "cheated" is NOT slander so please don't throw words out like that.  What you have here are people who are voicing their opinion on a situation that was mentioned.  I don't know the identities of either owners or either trainers and I don't care to.  What I do care about is correcting the problem with regards to an horse who is overtheheight limit for that class being allowed to show in that class in the first place.  Those are issues that have been around for a long time and NEED to be RESOLVED.  I am sorry if I saw red when I read your post but that word "slander" set me off.

484544[/snapback]

​

 

[tagalong]

Yep. What Danielle said.

It is not "slander" to examine an unfortunate episode and sort out ways to prevent such things from happening again - and the measuring issue is at the base of it. No one has said not to go to Trainer A or Trainer B ever again. No one has said anything beyond concern and opinions about what happened in the mess at hand. And some who have posted here were there... and were involved...

Please note that most of this thread is a forum about ways to fix the system to prevent such things from happening - and has nothing to do with "slander"....

and everything to do with people having some input and making suggestions - some of them may not be worded to everyone's liking... but that may simply be an indication of the strength of that person's feelings on the matter...

 

[Nostalgia]

Sorry to repost the previuos comments, hit a button in error! Actually you are correct, it would not be slander, because slander is spoken. Libel would be the proper word becuase it is written. Writing that someone is unethical and that the trainer should be sued (which was said by some) is degrading someones character - hence libel.

I wasn't speaking to anyone imparticular so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't try to give me an education. My family paid greatly for the one that I have already received.

If you intend to concentrate on the issue of measuring then why are there so many comments against a trainer on a thread titled "A question for those ready to hang this "trainer""?

To save alot of peoples feelings, personal character, and there profession please discuss measuring on a new thread. I am sure a lot of people would love to participate and this forum would rec. alot more credibility from officials that can help make a difference.

Lets try chasing away the negative with some positive resolutions.

Natalie

 

[Danielle_E.]

Natalie, I wanted to say to you also have the right to voice your opinions on this topic and any other on this forum. I noticed you posted after I did but didn't write anything in your post, just quoted. Please don't feel like you can't reply to me and tell me to "knock it off" if that is how you feel about my post. EVERYONE has a right to their opinion on any topic that comes up here and if I came across the way I did it probably because I have had less than 3 hours sleep because of a sick horse so I am not in the best "frame" of mind today but I still loath the word slander when it doesn't "legally" apply. Forgive me.

 

[Annetta]

Lets try chasing away the negative with some positive resolutions.

Natalie

484549[/snapback]

​

Here's my personal resolution, same as it has always been:

I shalt not cheat by putting my taller horse into a smaller class.

 

[Nostalgia]

Danielle,

Please read my last post again. I specifically stated that I hit the wrong button and didn't mean to post the previous comments (meaning quoting you). I wasn't holding anything against you, after all I didn't know the whole situation (especially being exhausted).

Apology accepted

Natalie

 

[Danielle_E.]

I see you did post,

The unfortunate part about the internet is you don't "hear" what is being said, you only see the "words" so you can get a very different perception than what was meant by the person posting

(can you tell I am tired, I hope that made sense).

Nobody is "hanging" this trainer, the owner, etc. I think the initial thread had alot of food for thought. It brought up something that people have been saying has happened quite a bit in the past, the overheight issue in some cases. It has brought about a thread about what can be done about it. I consider that a "positive". I also consider it a positive that what transpired with the trainer refusing to show the clien'ts horse because it made those who use a trainer think about perhaps what is covered in a "contract" in a situation like this and maybe what should be added in such contracts. I don't think anyone every dreamed of this kind of scenario, it's almost sureal.

If a contract was signed between the two parties for a certain amount of $$ for the services of the professional trainer that the contract SHOULD have been fulfilled. It obviously was not fulfilled. Any person in a situation where you contract someone to do a job and the job is NOT DONE has the right to request that monies (amount to be agreed upon by both parties) be returned for non-compliance of the contract. Perhaps an agreement can be made without resorting to legal avenues and that would be wonderful but I believe that most voiced "their opinion" that if they were in that situation that this owner finds himself/herself in, that it would be the route they would go if in fact they could not get satisfaction and closure to the matter. I don't see that as slander or libel. Slander is "oral", libel if "written" and defamation is to "falsely reflect on a person's reputation".

None of that has transpired in these threads.