A question for those ready to hang this "trainer"

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I am just curious and NOT flaming anyone for there opinions but.. first off how many made comments about sueing and reading to hang this trainer and really how many of us knew all the facts?

How many were there and HEARD IT as opposed to hearing it from someone who heard from someone else and so on?

How many of you personally have thought about protesting a horse you were SURE you could beat? At your local shows those that seem larger but might be less show quality?

How many would react a bit different if it was someone from here that everyone knew? If that was the case how many would have waited to hear the other side of the story before being ready to torch them?

How many have thought that the reason we hear about the same few trainers and handlers alot could just very well be that they have some of the top horses and do very very well and come by it as honestly as anyone else does meaning iwth good and bad.

I wasnt there I cant say what happened I do know what I would have done personally and that would have been handled it differently with the knowledge of my trainer -that may be right or wrong but I do know how often when it is one of our own here being bashed... others will defend and say to the flamers how on earth can you say this with out all the facts how is this different cause they are our friends?

I am not taking sides just questions I thought of alot all day yesterday

 

[Jill]

Can someone tell me who this trainer is?

I read most of the other thread, and when i read what Angel said, that did strike a chord with me. If I understood what she said, the client filed the protest w/o his/her trainer knowing a protest was being filed.... That doesn't feel like the right way to handle it to me. I'm not saying a protest should not have been filed (not saying anything on it, I bet there's more to it than I know), but the trainer's the one going into the ring and putting his or her face right out there. I think that the trainer should have been informed about the intention to file the protest prior to it being filed. When I have have had people who have been trainers or similar for me, I feel like it's a partnership and I would not do something that important without discussing it.

I have clients of my own, though nothing to do with horses. Still, I can just imagine how I would feel (betrayed for a start...) if my client didn't at least let me hear what was on their mind when it is something this important. I would not want to get the word the same time as outsiders to our relationship.

On the measuring, I like most of us know that a lot of it seems to have to do with the conversation at the point of measuring. I've only seen it at local registered shows but I saw the height divisions on the AMHR results and then seeing difference at the AMHA's like 2 weeks later when horses don't shrink. Yeah, it makes me wonder.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I fully agree Jill... it is a form of betrayl the way I look at it to.

Instead of looking at it like it is a elite club that is sticking togther.. why not look at it as we would in our own lives. Professionals that need to work togther on a very regular basis not saying protests shouldnt be done if you feel they need to be but .. if you are trusting your horse with a trainer or for all we know a catch handler which would make it different for me as well..

But anyway just like I think my own feeling it is a matter of respect and professional courtesy to inform the trainer/handler you are going to do this so I think this was lacking and I know in my own buisness professional respect and courtesey go an awful long way.

 

[Belinda]

I can honestly say I was there !! It was not a very nice situation . And the horse should have been shown. The trainer had been prepaid for Nationals so he had a job to do.

Trainers do not own their clients !!! I have been training for over 35 years. I do not always like what my clients say or do , but they are people and we can not control their every move. Therefore I do not believe people should hold the Trainer accountable for what a client does !!!! And that leaves open that he should have completed the job he was paid for. He made the statement he was standing up for all trainers !!! Well I did not ask him to stand up for me. All those trainers will not be there when you can not pay your light bill, and when you don't have money for Food,, You know who will be there ?? YOUR CLIENTS

they are the ones that put the food on your table, not the other trainers..

It might have been different had the owner done something under handed or harmful , but these people just did something that they thought was right, and guess what they were right. !!! So now they are the ones that get punished for doing the right thing and something that most did not have the back bone to do

And last this is just my opinion and I don't even really know the people that protested but had few words with them during the class their horse SHOULD have been in. They in no way wanted to cause harm to anyone just wanted a even playing field... Matter of fact said they would not even pursue anything due to the fact that life was to short and they will just write this up to expensive lesson !!!

Belinda

 

[Bess Kelly]

Personally, I had no comment on "the trainer" situation.

BUT, having once had a trainer

I can say that I often discussed such show issues with them. I would have advised that I was filing a protest but, it probably would not have made a difference as to my decision to do so. On the flip side, if this was the ONLY reason for not then taking a clients horse into the ring, then there would be a great deal of concern for that decision as the trainer was hired to do this function.

None of us know the full spectrum of the situation. In my opinion, I feel the statements made were not made against anyone personally but, the entity in general.......and the "related" happening.

Mostly, I see that the majority feels a trainer should not quit their job at such a critical moment based on what a client did -- which did not include him or directly impact him (ie. not pay them, slander them). If the protested animal was being handled by another trainer and that other trainer made aggressive threats, that is not only poor sportsmanship but possibly unlawful.

Now, if the horse being protested were being handled by the SAME trainer

wouldn't that be a panic ?

As with most situations, the actual facts are probably quite different than we hear. So, let's not get our undies in a knot. Keep it civil.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

As with most situations, the actual facts are probably quite different than we hear. So, let's not get our undies in a knot.  Keep it civil.

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That was the thing bothering me most as I thought about it

 

[Teresa]

Go, Bess.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I only said in the other thread that If I paid a trainer to finish the job I would expect he would do that and if he didnt I would feel screwed by him. I am in total agreement with Belinda who was there. It doesnt matter who the trainer is .... if they are prepaid for a specific job then, even if I protested someone elses horses measurement, I am paying him to show my horse not stick up for another trainer who in this case was wrong! The clients are the ones that pay for the bread and butter. IF the other trainer with the over sized horse would now "owe" this trainer favors at a later show.....that is even more disheartening. That sounds like the mindset of "trainers have to stick together".[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Frankie]

As I have read this thread and the others, what I find most difficult to understand, is some of the responses.

I sure hope any one who responses, reads ALL of the other threads. Some people responded to what others THOUGHT, it wasn't facts, but was read that way. Then others responded from that thinking it was facts, then on and on. So a few things are being thrown out there and aren't actual facts. If you go through and read all the threads, you will see where that is happening, will also see that is where a few folks get more upset.

I so hate 3rd hand crap and people responding to that. Or the, "Well, if I had been there" type situations. I am referring to the actual event here. I know some can relate and respond because they have used trainers.

JMO: As members of the AMHA, It is our responsiblity to BE GOOD MEMBERS. What you do will depend on what that means to you.

 

[LaVern]

Is it true that this trainer is also a judge? If so, he should know the rules.

 

[Frankie]

IF the other trainer with the over sized horse would now "owe" this trainer favors at a later show.....that is even more disheartening. That sounds like the mindset of "trainers have to stick together".

I have to say this is not a fair statement. A lot of people do know who that "other trainer" is. You do not know his/her "mindset" and unless you know this to be true first hand from experience with that trainer, I think unfair to make an assumption.

And yes I know you said, "IF", but I still do not believe it is fair to speak FOR this trainer and what he/she may be thinking. JMO

 

[LaVern]

You know the more I get thinking about this the less I care about who the trainer that was maybe naughty.

What I do care about is WHO was the trainer who knowingly put the protested horse in the wrong class. And what was the name of the person that measured so far off.

 

[tagalong]

If you read those other threads - you will note that as in THIS thread... many of us could care less WHO said trainer was who walked out on showing that horse...

We were/are concerned about this as an action... and how unprofessional it was. As many have said - a trainer is contracted to present the client's horses. And not showing a horse at the big event of the year - at the last minute.... well, it gives one pause. Ditto for the other trainer who got the disputed horse into the smaller class. It has been a discussion of ethics (for me anyway) - and not a focus on any individual...

 

[Kim]

I do understand the concern about 'going behind your trainer's back', but for me, the issue is not so much about the client-trainer relationship, rather it is one of honesty and integrity. By implying that someone should ask the "permission" of their trainer before filing a protest against someone who they know is blatantly breaking the rules, you are in fact implicitly propogating the current status quo - don't ask, don't tell.

Why would an honest trainer get bent out of shape that someone (regardless of whether it was one of his clients or not) filed a height protest? If there is no justification for the protest and there is nothing to hide, so what? Nothing happens except the protester loses his or her 50 bucks. If there is a justification, and the protest is successful, someone who has broken the rules gets caught, and honesty and integrity is promoted--which *should be* a desirable outcome, at least for all but those who want to continue subverting the spirit and intent of the rules which have been put in place to, at least theoretically, try to ensure an even playing field for all.

If someone notices that a clear 28-30 inch horse is being shown in a 28 & under class, it is their every right to protest and let the show committee deal with it. People should not be blacklisted for protesting. What is the point of the rules if everyone is ‘afraid’ of enforcing them for fear of upsetting the powers that be? In the end, this attitude is only detrimental to our industry and to our organization because the masses will slowly drift away from showing toward other endeavors if they feel that there is not at least a semi-level playing field. Just look at how National/World entries are decreasing year after year – it’s a valid concern that does need to be addressed.

 

[tagalong]

Kim - EXCELLENT post..... and one many should re-read a few times. You summed up how I feel about this exactly.... only you expressed it better...

I note how quickly some here are also (not knowing the facts as they have pointed out) deciding that the owner was disrespectful etc. ... without considering all the variables... the time factor... how busy their trainer was with his other horses... etc. But dang it - THEY were in the wrong??? ... one needs to consider all sides of a situation...

*sigh*

 

[Jill]

I may be looking at this weird, but what I think is that whatever went on between the trainer and the client, that only effects that trainer and that client and we do not know the ins and outs of their relationship, and who betrayed who first (I think to file a protest without the trainer knowing is really off...).

There is not anything any registry can do to govern the business relationship between a trainer and a client. These trainers are not registry certified or approved. They are business men and women.

What does effect all of us is the situation with inconsistent measuring.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I said IF because it was a hypothetical question not an actual question because I know that has happened before. I have no idea who that trainer is that put the horse in the wrong class.... Im hoping that it was just a mistake not intentional but I have been in this game long enough to know what goes on. I used to be a steward so I was around the inner circle. It wasnt a judgement placed on that trainer, just a question from observations in the past.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Boinky]

ok i've been reading these posts. I'm not a memeber of AMHA but here's a thought..NOT blaming anyone as i was not there.. BUT first off.. i find it very disturbing that AMHA does not allow proxy voting for there members (many clubs..including the largest single breed dog registry allow's for members to vote on MAJOR issues so that everyone gets a say by mail). that you HAVE to be at the meetings. That in itself seems to be slightly elitist. Not everyone (infact probably not a majority of people) can afford to buy plane tickets, hotels and just take off time from work to go to each and every meeting across the country. that leaves it open for those that can afford it which sadly enough is the very small minority of the membership. Secondly. This stuff is happening. we all know it is.... you all want to make a differnce but don't know how. Why don't the mini community join together and form a "union" of sorts (not really a part of either club..). do fund raisers to earn money to FIGHT with when you feel the cause is wanranted! have union reps that look out for hte intrest of the "people" not the "elite" few that will go to these functions and make it known. The money can also go towards fighting legally if needed to help straighten up the AMHA (and AMHR if nessasary). Apparently from what i've read and i'm sure not all of it is true..the registry's take their own stand weather it's what the membership wants or not..so why not have an independent union formed by the membership that will look out for the intrests and fight legally or just have mediation with the clubs to solve problems?? just a thought..perhaps not a lodgical one..but a start! You need a independent party looking out for the best intrests of the membership..not the club which seems to sometimes have their own agenda and looks out for the finacial intrests even if it means breaking rules (which seems to have been suggested..and no one had a solution for soliving it. ).

 

[Jill]

For the record, I did not mean to imply I think someone should have a trainer's permission to file a protest. However, I think it's not very considerate or insightful to file the protest w/o giving the trainer a heads up. I would just not ever handle it that way because I do see the trainer / owner situation that you are both aiming for a common goal so I wouldn't act on my own without letting the trainer know AND hearing his or her perspective. And, I do think there's more than we can know and those of us who were not involved probably are projecting things we suspect or guess, but don't really know.

 

[minimomNC]

This is totally from my own mind, not indicating that I know anything that happened.

What if the story were changed, the client went to the trainer told them of their intentions and the trainer told them if they protest, then their horse wouldn't be shown either. What would you do then?

Would you protest anyway and not have your horse shown or would you forget the protest and let the horse that was in the wrong size class go ahead and show in that class. Would you hope to find someone that could show the horse if thats possible so close to the class time?

What would you do?