A question for those ready to hang this "trainer"

[Kim]

(I think to file a protest without the trainer knowing is really off...)

If I was in the same situation, out of courtesy, I likely would have discussed this with the trainer beforehand - not to get his blessing, but to alert him beforehand as to what I was going to do. However, as Tagalong stated above, we don't know all the circumstances, and there may have been factors that prevented the client from doing so, such as whether the trainer was even avaiable to the client at the time.

Again, however, what I am not completely understanding - and maybe you could elaborate on your above comment - is WHY the issue of a person protesting another horse's height concerns that person's trainer, at least in more than a peripheral sense. As I stated in my previous post, why would an honest trainer care if someone protested, even if they were unaware beforehand that that person was going to protest? If there is no substance to the protest, it will not be successful. Period.

I can see how a trainer might be up in arms if one of his clients was condoning BREAKING a rule, but why would an honest trainer care that one of his clients was trying to make sure that the rules were enforced? It should not be necessary to get your trainer's permission to act with integrity.

 

[Mini_Bre]

Not meaning to be rude but....

Why do we care?

Whatever went on is the client and the trainers buisness not ours.

 

[Belinda]

I am posting this response for the people that filed the protest , only because she wrote and ask me to , because she is not a member of Lil Beginnings and can not post on here at this time.. ..

No one really knows what they would do in a deal like this until you are face to face with it , and who knows things might be a lot different when you are the one faced with this... Spectulation is great but not always right !!!

Belinda

____________________________________________________________________

Hi Belinda,

I have been watching the comments on LilBeg. I am not

a member, but I do enjoy reading topics on there.

I would appreciate it if you could do something for me.

First of all, I don't want to open up who we are because

we went thru enough at the show and I don't need any

more. I very much appreciate your comments in support

since you were there and did understand what was happening.

I would like to tell the facts so that this can come to a rest and

people don't have to speculate. So if you would post what

I have to say I would appreciate it.

****************************************************************************************************************************************

Like many others we want to enhance our program by showing

our horse. A very successful trainer asked to show our stallion

this year and we agreed. The stallion has been in training since

May. The horse has worked hard and we spent a great deal of

money in anticipation of seeing him in the show ring. The trainer

did a fabulous job with him. He looked absolutely gorgeous, the

best he has ever been.

At the show so many people were complaining about the "too tall"

horses in certain classes. This isn't something new, but apparently

people didn't want to take the risk to speak up.

In the premium show book the only horses listed in a class are the

early entries. Therefore until the close of entries at the show, horses

can be moved into different classes. I am not sure how that works

since my belief was that they have to qualify for a particular class.

Our horse was to show on Saturday and we were able to look at

an updated listed from the show office. Three horses from the

taller class moved down into the smaller class.

I asked in the AMHA office about protesting because that is what

their rules say you are entitled to do. They said many people had

asked about protesting, but had decided against doing so because of

repercussions. Now I know what they meant.

However, we did look at who the three horses were. One we didn't

have any information on, but an individual who knew the horse said

he would easily measure in. With no further information on him we let

that one go. The second horse had been showing in the taller class all

year, winning many grands, however the owner told me he was only 1/2"

over. Most people can trim hooves, etc. to take care of that.

So we let that horse go which was a mistake since his permanent papers

show a height of 29 1/2" on record at AMHA.

The third horse had not only been showing all year in the taller class,

but

had won a championship at one of the Regional Shows. It was listed

in the MHW current issue. The facts were right there. So we did

protest and paid our $50. They called Michael Want into the office and

he had them do a print out on the computer showing where the horse had

been shown all year. He then called the owner into the office. She came

in with the trainers wife. They decided to have the horse measured at

that

time. The horse measured at 29 1/2". They asked for another measurement

so it was done from the other side at 29 1/4". It was all video taped

and

done according to the rules. No problem with the way AMHA dealt with it.

However, the trainers wife asked who our horse was and what trainer he

was with.

I will tell you what I personally saw, or heard for myself, and what came

from others. We had no intention to hurt any owners, horses, &/or

trainers

and still don't. We just wanted to get things fair and stop the cheating

that

goes on when many people, not just us, have experienced the same thing.

The problem is too many people just want to complain and talk about

others,

but don't want to step up and do what the rules say to do.

Something I also want to clear up is why we didn't speak to our trainer

before the protest. We talked about needing to speak to him and then

we realized that by the time all facts were in place he was in the show

ring with classes back to back. We didn't believe that it would be fair

to

him to drop this on him while he was concentrating on other owners

horses.

We also felt that this way there would be no repercussions towards him

since he was not involved in any way of the protest and had no knowledge

of it. Wrong....

~To our knowledge~ the other trainers wife confronted our trainer while

he

was in the show ring. Then the trainer himself confronted him at the gate

while they were waiting to go into the class. ~ I personally was not

there~,

but all those waiting with them heard the exchange. That is when the

topic of trainers sticking together came up. We are not talking about

speaking to another person with respect and professionalism.

That is all I will say since I didn't actually hear them myself, but they

had

no right to come after our trainer. Obviously the horse was over, they

knew it was over, since it had been in that class all year even winning a

championship.

We can fully understand why our trainer was upset. The point is that we

had every right to protest according to AMHA rules without repercussion

to us, or our trainer.

Then we were told that our trainer was not going to show our horse. We

went to the stall area where Michael Want was present with our trainer.

Our trainer was very upset, one being because we didn't speak to him

first, which I explained, and tried to explain to him. The other being

his

fear of other trainers coming down on him. He refused to take our horse

in and left the area. This was 15 minutes before the class started.

We had to watch our horses class being shown, with many tears from me.

You wait so long and look forward to that time when you see

them in the ring. Try to imagine yourself doing what you think is right,

and following the rules of AMHA, and then you go home without even

seeing your horse out there.

The class went from 11 to 9, so all of the other horses received a top

ten. Both of the other horses that had dropped down into the class

received top honors. It was really difficult for us knowing the truth.

We had many people thank us for having the horse measured and for

doing what they felt was right. I am hoping that our loss will encourage

others, who have just talked amongst themselves, to step forward and

make a difference in this measuring issue.

The other focus should be on these horses that are shown all year in

a taller class and dropped down to get the win. I was not our intention

to maneuver the class to help our horse place, he could have placed on

his own qualities. This was our last year we were sending him out, so

it is all a loss to us emotionally and financially. It is very easy to

look

at the show results on line, or in your MHW, to see who showed all

year in the taller classes and then did "their" strategic move to

maneuver

the class.

As for the trainer, I can say that we have no bitterness towards him. We

understand his reason for being upset by way he was confronted. My

understanding is that he is going to call us when he gets home and we

hope that he will offer to make things right. Sometimes we all make

snap judgements and wish later that we had done things differently.

I am not excusing him for refusing to take our horse in, we can never

change that. It does concern me that this could happen to anyone

even at the last minute. I hope that none of you ever have to experience

what we went through, but I would still stand up for what I know is the

right thing to do. When you compromise your integrity is eventually

catches

up with you. We all make mistakes, including me, so I am in no way

trying to be critical of any others involved. Let's all try to make it

right.

Thank you for the support on this subject. I wanted to let everyone

know the facts, and not have to speculate. I choose not to use our

names since we have gone through enough at this time, but we will

be supportive in getting these changes made. For all others involved

in this situation I choose not to post any names or information. They

will have to decide what is best for them.

**********************************************************

 

[Jill]

This is totally from my own mind, not indicating that I know anything that happened. 
What if the story were changed,  the client went to the trainer told them of their intentions and the trainer told them if they protest,  then their horse wouldn't be shown either.  What would you do then? 

Would you protest anyway and not have your horse shown  or would you forget the protest and let the horse that was in the wrong size class go ahead and show in that class.  Would you hope to find someone that could show the horse if thats possible so close to the class time?   

What would you do?

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I think I'd be changing into some show clothes if it was important to me to file the protest. I'd rather do it that way, by far, than blindside my trainer... what's a hobby for me is a career for him / her.

 

[Minimor]

I so agree with Kim on this. She expressed my thoughts on this very clearly!

And minimom asked the question I was thinking about. If the owner told the trainer about the intention to file a protest, & the trainer gave them the ultimatum that if they want him to show their horse they have to NOT file a protest against the other horse/trainer....then

1) if the owner files anyway, who is wrong then? The trainer for insisting they do the "wrong" thing & then refusing to show their horse? Or the owner, for going against their trainer to do the "right" thing?

2) if the owner caves in to the trainer's pressure & does not file the protest, are you saying that is right?

It appears to me that some/many here are condoning the practice of putting horses into the wrong height division. Turning a blind eye to those that break the rules is IMO not the right thing to do.

You know what I think is funny? So many people spout off about how smaller is better, all else being equal the smaller horse should win over the bigger horse...but in spite of that, a number of people are wanting to put their taller horses into the smaller classes. If smaller horses are preferable over bigger horses (conformation being equal)...shouldn't ya being trying to get horses into the taller classes?? So that they're the smallest in the class, rather than the tallest??? It's fast becoming a joke I think.

 

[Jill]

(I think to file a protest without the trainer knowing is really off...)

If I was in the same situation, out of courtesy, I likely would have discussed this with the trainer beforehand - not to get his blessing, but to alert him beforehand as to what I was going to do. However, as Tagalong stated above, we don't know all the circumstances, and there may have been factors that prevented the client from doing so, such as whether the trainer was even avaiable to the client at the time.

Again, however, what I am not completely understanding - and maybe you could elaborate on your above comment - is WHY the issue of a person protesting another horse's height concerns that person's trainer, at least in more than a peripheral sense. As I stated in my previous post, why would an honest trainer care if someone protested, even if they were unaware beforehand that that person was going to protest? If there is no substance to the protest, it will not be successful. Period.

I can see how a trainer might be up in arms if one of his clients was condoning BREAKING a rule, but why would an honest trainer care that one of his clients was trying to make sure that the rules were enforced? It should not be necessary to get your trainer's permission to act with integrity.

482844[/snapback]

​

What I feel as to WHY the trainer should be informed about a protest being filed, is that the person is filing a protest relating to a class the trainer is presenting "my horse" in. He or she is the person that is going to be thought of as part of the protest by most people, and very involved with the consequences of the protest. I think that the trainer should get a heads up.

It's not supposed to be an adversarial relationship between trainer and client. If my trainer didn't want me to protest and after I heard why and I still wanted to, I would feel like basically I was choosing to sever the relationship by filing the protest. No matter how right the protest may have been, there are still consequences.

Again, it's not that I feel the trainer needed to approve of the protest, but should have known before everyone else did because the trainer really is the one out there in public and has to deal with the consequences.

And, really, what the trainer chose to do regarding the client's actions is between the trainer and the client. That, to me, is a non-issue for us really. It's the measuring difficulties and the attitude that a protest isn't going to be heard that is a concern.

 

[Jill]

Maybe a big part of what I am saying in like 1,000,000 words is that how can you expect to have a continued relationship with a trainer when you didn't give him / her the curtesy of knowing before hand that there was going to be TROUBLE / CONTROVERSY for him and his peers. It has nothing to do with whether it's right or not to have protested, but why would you do it without letting your front man know?

 

[horsehug]

Belinda,

Thank you so much for posting that for the person whose little horse did not get shown.

I truly admire her integrity and honesty more than I can express!!

Susan O.

 

[Minimor]

Thank you for the posting Belinda; I for one appreciate hearing the owners account of what happened. I applaud her/them for standing up for what is right. In her place, when the other trainers wife demanded to know who my horse/trainer is, I'd have refused to say.

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]I dont condone the trainer dumping his clients horse from the class but the ones that really area abominable are the trainer and wife of the other horse! Whoever you are, thank you for giving us the facts and I certainly respect your annonymity. Reprocussions do abound in the industry.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Ok well

I never said anything about asking permisson i said discuss - there is a difference to me. I know that some people involved in this.. were arguing not just about the one horse who was bumped back up but others as well could this be sour grapes PERHAPS.. is there a very good chance that a horse could legitmatley show in going with my own experience here 34 and under all year and then go OVER at nationals or vice versa so many things can come into play when discussing the difference of 1/4 in or so.. could be as simple as the weight of the horse most of us have had very fat horses measure bigger due to there weight

There are 2 sides to EVERY story let us all remember that and of course we can always find ways to skew either side so really there are 3 , each persons and then the actual reality.

Bottom line is.. seems ONLY ONE HORSE was protested not the rest and then after all was said and done.. complaining went rampant could that have something to do with who won and who didnt? Maybe maybe not I can not assume to know the motives of anyone but to come back and complain about so many being over after all was said and done doesnt seem fair to me - but then again i wasnt involved

Either way this has gotten very ugly IMO

and Minimor that has also been my thought from the get go

cant figure out who to quote somethjing this far down in the post but you said

You know what I think is funny? So many people spout off about how smaller is better, all else being equal the smaller horse should win over the bigger horse...

A good horse is a good horse and really one who flucuates in measuring within .25 of a inch is VERY normal and yes sometimes even .50 an inch can mean the horse was more tense, handler more tense you can measure a horse 100 times a day and come up with different measurements..

I dont know any parties personally but please lets keep in mind one persons perspective doesnt make it any more or less fact it makes it there own perspective and experience..

there experience is great and still doesnt mean a horse that measured 28.25 at one show and at this one 28 was done by cheating and dishonest practices or measures it can mean simply that it is a NORMAL fluxuation and in fact I would bet has happened to many of us ourselves during the show year.. wouldyou want any of your wins to be clouded with the word CHEATER or UNFAIRor UNDESERVED

just something to think about again this is a small part of the issue but is part of the complaints none the less.

 

[Frankie]

Thanks for the post Belinda.

Although the protest has cost them $50, and much much more. A person who has this courage and honesty will be repaid a million times over.

I have got to say, if others had done it before her, may be different now. But now that she has, I hope you gain strenght from it, to do the same thing. Very unselfish act.

 

[Jill]

I just read how it happened from the clients' perpective, and I can imagine how it could happen as explained, and how at the spur of the moment they made the choices they did. I can also imagine how I would feel to have the rug yanked out from under me at the show I'd day dreamed about all season. What a mess

I hate how the politics of showing horses gets and I'm sorry it went the way it did. Maybe some kind of better system will come about because of what has happened. Maybe protestor's identity can be held in confidence some way? There should be a way to have it go a lot better and less confrontational than it did.

 

[tagalong]

THANK YOU Belinda... for presenting the owner/protest filer's side of things....

I asked in the AMHA office about protesting because that is what their rules say you are entitled to do. They said many people had

asked about protesting, but had decided against doing so because of

repercussions. Now I know what they meant.

How sad is that - that doing the RIGHT THING brings you grief....

Something I also want to clear up is why we didn't speak to our trainerbefore the protest. We talked about needing to speak to him and then

we realized that by the time all facts were in place he was in the show

ring with classes back to back. We didn't believe that it would be fair

to

him to drop this on him while he was concentrating on other owners

horses.

That ^^^ was what I suggested may have been the case earlier... backstage at any big show is a chaotic scramble at the best of times...

Our trainer was very upset, one being because we didn't speak to himfirst, which I explained, and tried to explain to him. The other being

his

fear of other trainers coming down on him. He refused to take our horse

in and left the area. This was 15 minutes before the class started.

And thus the ethics question - does one do what is right??? Or what keeps you safe.... we all have our own answers to that... and handle it in our own way...

I hope that none of you ever have to experiencewhat we went through, but I would still stand up for what I know is the

right thing to do. When you compromise your integrity it eventually

catches

up with you.

Well said...

Thank you for the support on this subject. I wanted to let everyone know the facts, and not have to speculate. I choose not to use our

names since we have gone through enough at this time, but we will

be supportive in getting these changes made. For all others involved

in this situation I choose not to post any names or information. They

will have to decide what is best for them.

Thank you for stepping up to the plate when so many would rather not stir the pot.

You DID do the right thing... how sad that it came back at you in such a negative way... (((HUGS)))

And shame on the " 29 1/2" trainer" for going after anyone... for him doing what is simply against the rules. If only all the horses that skipped merrily down in many classes had been protested in the same way....

ETA: Lisa - yes - a half inch or a quarter inch here and there bumps horses easily from one class to another at times....it happens all the time... for instance a horse on the "edge" at 30" could easily go up or down depending on the measurement that day... but when one gets to an inch and half - or even two... *shrug*... it is not so easily ignored...

Yes - all things being equal - the smallest horse wins. But as the horses get taller and leggier - they also tend to get more refined and proportionate. Thus dropping down a class benefits the taller horses... as we all know.

Frankly - I see nothing wrong with discussing this issue.... everything gets swept under the rug far too often...

 

[Becky]

Thank you Belinda for your posts on this matter and I agree with you 100%. Also thank the owner for coming forward with the information as to how all of this evolved.

I was one of the people that inquired about filing a protest before the above owner ever did and how it would work right before a class entered. I was basically told by Michael Want that I couldn't do that. That subject horse to be protested had to have 1 hours notice prior to entering the ring (although it doesn't say that in the rule book. I was told it was 'policy') and that if he wanted to, he would call a committe meeting and vote me down. I was also told that they wouldn't stop the show for a protest. He wanted me to file a protest right there on the spot but I told him I couldn't do that without visually seeing the entries for the class to determine which one(s) might be oversize. That is when I wanted to determine who to protest as I felt there could be a horse(s) that were oversize. Needless to say, I was unable to follow through.

I personally saw and heard the two trainers involved in a very heated discussion right before a class entered the ring and it wasn't pretty. Everything that has been posted regarding the incident is true as I heard it coming straight out of the trainer's mouths.

Again, the bottom line on the threads on this subject is about measuring and ethics. Nobody measures the same and 1/4" surely is easy to measure one way or the other, but 1" - 1 1/2"? Give me a break!

 

[nootka]

When I first read the thread, I didn't care about knowing who the trainer was, the client, the horse, anything about it, and I didn't feel I had enough completely, irrefutable and reliable information to make a good, sound judgment on it.

I hear enough crazy things about various people within the industry, many of whom I consider good friends/acquaintances, and I have to take them with a grain of salt until evidence starts piling up that is truly reliable and trustworthy (usually my own eyes and ears and I have even made mistakes in that regard).

I probably shouldn't have responded to this thread because I am not one who wanted to "lynch the trainer" just because I don't know what truly happened, in every respect.

I would still love to hear a complete recount of what happened, from people without an axe to grind (as in owned the horse or closely involved w/the trainer, etc.).

I think it IS unfortunate how much of it came about, and it is a deeply flawed feature of our breed and showing.

I LOVE showing, and I'm willing to put up with some of the crap that comes along with it, but when it gets too deep, I feel I need to step in, but only if I have something that is worthwhile to say or protest about.

Liz M.

 

[Danielle_E.]

Liz, go to the previous page here and you will find the entire story from the owner of the horse who wishes to remain anonymous and had a member post her words to us.

 

[SunQuest]

Tagalong,

My thoughts exactly.

Again, it is really a black and white issue with me....

The rules were not being followed and the client has every right, NO, in fact as a member of AMHA has the DUTY to call attention to the corruption of OUR registery's official shows. Yep... It is OUR registery and we are all responsible for how it is run. We all have the responsability to keep this registery on the up and up whether it is a little show or the biggest most important show that the registery sponsors.

I apploud the client for doing what was right.

Yes, it cost that client a lot more than just the $50.00, but it is about time that people start doing what is right and calling the bluff of those that are sidestepping the system, otherwise one becomes a party to the ill effects of that rule bending.

As far as the trainer being angry??? Well, yes it would have been better handled if that trainer knew in advance so that the trainer wasn't blindsided, but the situation did not allow that to happen at that time (which many of us thought was most likely the case). Still, it is my opinion that the trainer had no moral or legal reason to not stand behind their promise to show this horse. There were no laws or rules broken from the client's side of things that excuse the unprofessional behavior of this trainer IMO. All of this should have been settled between the trainers and the clients after the show and again, if the trainer wanted to protect their hide from reprocussions, that trainer could easily have dropped that client from their list of people for the following year and not had any ill effects from that trainer's peers.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

again i am not flaming the person who filed the complaint my question is it is clear in there own words they felt 3 horses were OVERSIZE and are SURE OF IT so then why protest only one? if going to do the right thing and make it a fair playing ground why not have done all 3? why wait till the show is over and say the 2 other wons who i assume did well were oversize as well

just wondering and more thoughts on the issue

 

[Danielle_E.]

I think I'd be changing into some show clothes if it was important to me to file the protest. I'd rather do it that way, by far, than blindside my trainer... what's a hobby for me is a career for him / her

I was surprised to say the least when I read "than blindside my trainer".

I am afraid the only people I have any respect for here are the owners who put the protest in. What is shows me is the trainer who refused to show the horse because of the problems it would cause "him" in all of this is NOT what I call a good ambassador to his/her profession because what it portrays to me is that trainers would rather stick together even if WRONG and doing something against the RULES. Gee, if trainers, officials and many owners try to bend the rules or don't enforce the rules what does that say to lets say a newcomer to the breed or a newcomer to the show world? It means if you want to play with the "big boys" you better be prepared to lie, cheat, etc. and if you any kind of conscience than this ain't the place for you, or you best learn to just shut-up and put up with it. How nice, NOT. The entire situation is disgusting and shows the greed of some to attain their own glorification. It really makes me quite sick to think about it. This trainer who refused to show their horse because of the protest they put on another horse/trainer/owner is no better than any trainer that would take a horse into a class when they darn well know they don't belong there - same cat different stripes is all.

Well it only goes to reinforce my personal feelings toward the registry and why I decided awhile back to go totally with the other....