Where is all of this going?

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

mary I am sorry I think I wasnt clear and you misunderstood me of course one or two foals or 4 foals or 10 foals means alot to those of us breeding them.( we are on the same page there) The amount of time and energy and money it takes to get a live foal on the ground well we all know what that was like.

I do think though if we all didnt breed back just one mare even that we had planned and say had 3 foals one year instead of 4 even just the people hear on this board (and I am not saying everyone has to do that) I am saying that would add up to hundreds of foals not being out there on the market in the long run that will improve the market IMO anyway

Of course we take pride in our horses be it sitting in our yards, producing babies, doing parades or in the show ring or just driving down the street

I was really saying that if you(not you but a general you) was going to breed say 10... could you not maybe breed 8 or 9 instead

Really it isnt my business who breeds what to who it is just that every year the same thing happens everyone talks about how the market is flooded and then there is the discussion as to who has and breeds quality and who doesnt well that is subjective we all believe we have quality i have yet to hear anyone say I bred crap to crap and really i am hoping beyond hope I get crap- Of course we all love our horses and feel they are special or we wouldnt own them

If the market truly is flooded then even 50 people breeding ONE LESS mare would make a difference a small one but a difference.

I still intend to breed and might have one or 2 foals in 2009 however FOR ME here in my little corner of the world I have opted to not breed all my breedable mares every year in fact I have decided FOR ME 1-3 foals a year or even every other year is more then enough. Just one thing I can do that I can feel good about everyone can and will do different things.

I just dont think pointing fingers at others and saying it is the lesser quality that makes the problem is the answer or stick to your high prices is the answer- I have seen 200 dollar horses go to wonderful loving homes and be cherished. I have seen top quality horses produce pets again that is subjective.

The answer doesnt lie within one group of us changing or not breeding anymore but in all of us is I guess what I am trying to say

The only answer is that less horses are bred doesnt mean NO horses are bred and I would NEVER say only breed show horses or only breed this pedigree I was simply saying.. maybe if we all really thought about breeding just one less it might make a small dent in the problem

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I just wanted to ask a question as I am finding this discussion absolutely facinating and very educational. I am very new to minis and certainly not a breeder ( I have 2 geldings). But in reading this I am wondering

if gelding contracts were used in sales very often? Also is there in place a similar contract for mares? I understand they can't be gelded of course, but a non-breeding contract put in place for a mare. Therefore wouldn't this give professional breeders more control on the situation of 'backyard breeders'. Please excuse my ignorance if this is a stupid question, I'm only new and still learning.

These types of contracts and clauses are not legally binding, its an honor contract. The buyer has no legal obligation to complete that contract.

I do think mini stud fees are too low, personally.

 

[kaykay]

After having just completed a contract and law class i asked my law teacher about gelding contracts and about first right of refusal contracts (contracts that say the seller has to have first chance to buy the horse back at the same price they sold them) . She said they absolutely are legal and binding as long as both people sign them. If someone doesnt follow through you could sue and win. The thing is most wont go to court but I have met some farms who will.

 

[AceyHorse]

I agree that geldings are totally under-rated. Although I think attitudes are getting better. Here in New Zealand a few years ago the gelding classes were tiny, anyone could go out there with pretty much any old gelding and come home with champions etc because there wasn't any competiton. Now the classes are getting bigger and bigger and some of these geldings will absolutely take your breath away and these geldings are kicking butts, taking home Supremes etc! And this reflects into the price, a good top quality gelding price now is getting up there with the mares, no kidding. I have two geldings I love and wouldn't swap for the world, they do halter, jumping, obsticle, and now drving all with great enjoyment and attitude. What more could you ask for? If people are breeding good quality, good temprement geldings who can get out there, do anything and bring home some ribbons, why wouldn't people pay good money for them? Go the Geldings!!! :aktion033: :aktion033:

 

[Jill]

I'm sure it's true that signed gelding contracts and first rights of refusal contracts would hold up in court, however, what would you really get? Probably a VERY small amount of financial compensation and you've got to factor in your time and effort.

And, YEP, GO GELDINGS!!!! Anyone who knows me knows I LOVE my geldings. They're the horses I have the most fun with and I have gelded some very good examples who easily could hold their own as stallions. Why? Because geldings are more fun!!!

:

 

[CKC]

I had to jump in on the gelding part. I have always been a gelding fan. If I had the money right now I would love to have an all around gelding that is a finished driving horse.

We own 5 geldings with two colts on the way that will be gelded in the fall.

 

[Marty]

I have always said (and been flamed for saying it) think about how many less horses would be brought into the world if even just every forum member who breeds held back and didnt breed 2 mares they had planned on no matter how wonderful they think they are- that alone would easily be 1000 foals LESS in ONE YEAR that does make a difference. To me that is a huge amount of foals and that is just this forum and I am sure the numbers could be even higher/

Lisa, actually that is a brilliant idea. But I do think you are barking up the wrong tree at the same time.

Do you or anyone remember a few years ago, someone issued a "gelding challenge" on here? And all kinds of forum members came on the gelding wagon and were announcing "I did it, I did it" ???

Well, that was a start. But did it help anything? Or that particular horse? I don't know. Does anyone know?

I think most forum members here are not responsible for the surplus miniatures out there, no way no how.

Come on, some are producing 1 or 2 a year, others just a handful of lovely, well bred, well marketed miniatures.

I think the people to get after are the ones that are running the MINI MILLS, over-producing 30, 40, 50, who knows how many each year and then it's off to the public auction they go, with or without papers,

to anyone that will pay $250 a head.

MINI MILLS seem to be springing up all over the place.

I heard one place is breeding for dwarfs. I hear and another is breeding over 100 with bogus papers so the story goes that I've been told. Another has all their colts, fillies, and mature mares and stallions, over 100 head all turned out together. No paperwork either of course. Yearlings breeding yearlings. DISGUSTING! Makes me sick to my stomach.

There goes the neighborhood.

How in the world can I market my horses when some Joe Blow up the road can sell 4 for the price of my 1 ???

Do the buyers care what they are getting ? No, not in these cases. They are just looking for the best bang for the buck. Doesn't matter about papers, or bloodlines, or conformation, or their health, physical or mental, or their vaccinations up to date or farrier, or feed program or daily routines. It just matters that they can go there to the mini mill and buy 4 horses from there instead of 1 from me.

And where the heck does that leave me??????? And yalls?

We have to compete with the likes of that crap?

Well I wouldn't sell to people like that in the first place. But there they are.

So, I'm not taking the fall around here for over producing when I foal out 1 foal per year, and 2 this year and none for next year.

Blame the mills. Blame these fools. They are the real culprits that are ruining the industry.

Not you or me. It's them.

 

[Carolyn R]

On the other hand (and I know this is an UNPOPULAR idea), if the lower quality horses are allowed to go to the meat market, they do not reproduce, supply is lowered, quality is increased, and demand is increased.

I AM ABSOLUTELY NOT SAYING THAT ALL NON BREEDING HORSES ARE WORTHLESS! I am just saying that if you remove them from the market, quality and demand go up.

You must be able to separate emotion from economics to understand this.

Well said, I hate the thought, but it is a crying shame it has been done away with in the US. I have seen plenty of large and small horses in the past few months that have some major issues going on and should not be sold as kid safe, sound or breeding stock, but they are.

I am not saying that all these animals go to rotten homes because they are sold dirt cheap, but for those that do go to substandard homes because they have little or no value placed on them, is it fair that they spend a lifetime in tiny stalls with a 10x10 turnout knee deep in mud and poo, with oozing sores or eye infections that lead to blindness, or are infested with worms because they go untreated? Ask yourself what is more humane?

Carolyn

 

[Charley]

I am one who bought my first minis as pets and then began breeding. We had four foals born on our farm. Two colts, both gelded ( we were ones who stood by the "gelding challenge") still living on our farm and two fillies, both sold, one as a pet in a pet home and one had her first filly in her new home this year (I was not involved in the breeding).

We have one AMHA mare and one AMHA stallion, both are quality. This is the third year that we have not bred them and I don't think we ever will again. They are pets now living in separate fields with geldings. They talk alot and are not happy with the situation of being separated, but living the life with shelter, proper care, plenty of food and love. With all the breeding problems that minis have... to me it is not worth the risk of the heartbreak of losing a foal or a mare. It is just not for me. I love my minis for being the minis they are not for the minis they could and would create.

I do believe that most breeders should geld their colts. At three years of age these gelded horses should be trained to pull carts and sold as horses with jobs. Promoted as the fun little horses that they are. I think if people really love their colts they would do this for them by either training them themselves or finding a trainer to do it. Trained cart horses do sell in our area. I know my geldings are happier when they can show off their jobs than just left to be lawn ornaments. Buyers should be screened (weed out the backyard breeders), educated on what minis are capable of, and encouraged to have fun with their horses, to be outside spending time with them and taking care of them and enjoying them. JMHO I don't see how anyone with over ten minis can truly enjoy each and every one to their full potential. I have been there and was truly happiest when I had only two. I think the horses would agree.

 

[Buckskin gal]

I am sure I will not be popular for saying this but my heart tells me to. This thing of sending all surplus horses to the "meat market" is just too simple of answer for those who over produce horses. I just feel it is irresponsible of breeders to think they can mass produce and anything they don't want to deal with send it off to the slaughter houses for the bucks they can make that way. Something has to be done about making sure those animals are handled humanely before selling to any slaughter buyer. This is the reason that slaughter places are being shut down...it is about the horrible conditions the horses have to endure through the whole process from the auctions on through the killing. Do you really think it is fair to the horse to be brought into the world by people who could care less how the life of that horse and only to be considered something for inhumane treatment toward the end of its life? IF that animal could be humanely put to rest on it's own place, then hauled off for purposes of food or what ever, I wouldn't feel so bad but I think the people who find it so easy to bring horses into this world also have it too easy to just haul it off to the auction where it will most likely be treated badly until it is finally put to death. I have seen horses go through the sale ring that people don't have any respect for ir life at all. Often walking on two and three legs some look like they are already half dead. Then when sold shoved on trucks where crowding conditions are horrible.........I can't go on with more. Somehow someway breeders of horses need to be made responsible for all horse they bring into the world .....I wish I had the answers but with the industry being so huge I think it will be fought to the end by breeders to become responsible. Just my 2 cents. Mary

On the other hand (and I know this is an UNPOPULAR idea), if the lower quality horses are allowed to go to the meat market, they do not reproduce, supply is lowered, quality is increased, and demand is increased.

I AM ABSOLUTELY NOT SAYING THAT ALL NON BREEDING HORSES ARE WORTHLESS! I am just saying that if you remove them from the market, quality and demand go up.

You must be able to separate emotion from economics to understand this.

Well said, I hate the thought, but it is a crying shame it has been done away with in the US. I have seen plenty of large and small horses in the past few months that have some major issues going on and should not be sold as kid safe, sound or breeding stock, but they are.

I am not saying that all these animals go to rotten homes because they are sold dirt cheap, but for those that do go to substandard homes because they have little or no value placed on them, is it fair that they spend a lifetime in tiny stalls with a 10x10 turnout knee deep in mud and poo, with oozing sores or eye infections that lead to blindness, or are infested with worms because they go untreated? Ask yourself what is more humane?

Carolyn