Where is all of this going?

[Sterling]

I've often wondered how neat it would be if we could all just order our next miniature horse like we do our vehicles. Such as breed ____ to _____ and wait till the baby hits the ground and is weaned then call it my own! Would that be too far fetched? (Maybe I'm living in Terabithia?) Oh well one could still fantasize .....

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[Cathy_H]

I heard yesterday that one reason for hay shortage is that the hay growers are now given subsidies to grow corn - yep you guessd it . Guess we all need to stop driving so much so we will have hay for our horses!....................... As I have been saying on here for years - there is an overproduction of miniature horses & too much breeding going on. But others disagreed on here also years ago saying, "taint so, because the miniature horse industry does not have near the numbers of such & such yet". When you breed dozens & dozens of horses every year it is hard to face reality I guess....................... We have averaged 2-4 mini foals a year. We are in the process of placing our last broodmares for sale. We have tried to get them into good homes where the owners are not intent on just making money so they won't be cast aside when / if that doesn't happen. We don't even own a breeding stallion anymore.

 

[Jill]

But, your Gideon was one of the lucky ones! A lot of people feel like something is only "worth" what they paid in terms of how much care it deserves. Luckily, you are not that kind. When horses go that cheaply, though, it's not usually a good thing for the horse.

 

[littlesteppers]

First off all I am NOT complaining..I am just stating the facts! Kanoas..what duid you do to spend 12 000 dollars on 2 horses? Wow..NOW lets say you would have to sell them..(hope not BUT what if) what price would you put on them?? pple would say you paid 200..I will give you 150.00

 

[Sue S]

When I started to get minis I said I would only get 10 and thats what I got and thats all I want, I want to be able to pay attention to all of them, I have a very nice stallion, But just because he is nice I am not going to breed all my mares every year, I had one baby this year a palomino and I am keeping her and I don't think I am going to breed the mare back this year I don't want to be stuck with a bunch of babys I can't sell if the market is going down. I have 2 mares that are bred to a cremello and I want to bred 2 of my mares to my stallion MVM Ragtime Cowboy. Thats all I am breeding. I also have a mare I would like to show so I'm not breeding her.

 

[Songcatcher]

Let me point out the other end of the spectrum for a minute. Supply and demand HAVE to be considered as well as quality.

I recently advertized on the sale board looking for an under 30 stallion. I had lots of replies. Some very nice horses and some not so nice. One particular reply offered a very nice looking yearling. I don't remember all the specifics, but to the best of my memory he had good bloodlines. No show record. Might possibly go a bit over 30 by maturity. Not exactly the color I wanted, but nice. I had absolutely nothing against the colt except that they were asking $3,500 and were located about 1,500 miles from me. I sent what I considered to be a very polite reply, thanking them for answering my ad and complimenting their horse. I told them that I was a small operation and had to look for a bit more of a bargain and emphasized that I was not saying their horse was not worth what they were asking, just that it was more than I could afford and I had to look for more of a bargain. I received back what I considered a very curt reply saying I needed to set a price range in my ad as this was a quality horse, not a bargain horse. I wanted to reply, but decided it was best to just delete it and say nothing more. Not the type of attitude that will make me want to search their webpage in the future.

I had also been looking at and later agreed to buy a mature stallion, comfortably under 30 inches, VERY good bloodlines, with a show record, about 200 miles from home, for a much more affordable price and only a fraction of the shipping cost. I will announce him after he arrives home.

I don't blame anyone for wanting to hold on to their animals until they get their price. But for goodness sakes, don't jump onto someone for looking for a bargain. They are available if you are willing to search and wait. I'm not saying anyone on here has done that, just relating what happened to me.

 

[KanoasDestiny]

First off all I am NOT complaining..I am just stating the facts! Kanoas..what duid you do to spend 12 000 dollars on 2 horses? Wow..NOW lets say you would have to sell them..(hope not BUT what if) what price would you put on them?? pple would say you paid 200..I will give you 150.00

Very true Christine! $12,000 is alot, isn't it? I had to buy the horses, fencing, shelter, pay board fees ($100/month), get everything that goes along with horses (halters/leads, minerla/salt blocks, brushes, toys, food/water buckets, wormers, fly sprays/predators, treats, trashcans, wheelbarrow, etc), food, farrier ($70 every 6 weeks), a truck and trailer (the truck was bought stickly because of the horses), yearly shots, a gelding surgery, two vet visits (one from when both horses coliced, the other to get their teeth floated and yearly checkup)...the list goes on. What can I say, my 2 horses are very very spoiled!!!

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As for selling them, IF it ever got to the point where I had to get rid of them....I would give Zoey's breeder the first chance at buying her back (depending on the circumstance, I might just give her back as I'm sure she would do everything in her power to find a wonderful home for her) and I would hope that she would take Gideon was well (for free), so that they could go as a pair. But if she didn't want them, then I would give them to my aunt, who would take wonderful care of them. Such a sad thing to think about...I hope it never happens!

Oops, forgot to say...I don't think you're complaining Christine. I totally understand your situation and why you would be upset. I just think that whenever most breeders see that someone wants a horse that doesn't cost a fortune, their first thought it that horse is going to go to a bad home. That just isn't always the case. I'm sure that there are lots of people on here who have bought/been given a cheaper horse and has given it just as decent a lifestyle as the horses they paid more for.

 

[Shari]

I see quite a few really, really nice minis for a lot less than they would of gone for a couple of years ago.

It really has tempted me to buy.

But what you are seeing is not just a mini problem...every breed is affected..even with the very well bred quality horses.

And it is going to get a lot worse before it gets better.

(Added) as for the horses only getting good homes if they are a high price. It is not always the case. Maggie cost me $750.00,,granted over 8 years ago now. She has a wonderful home...well taken care of and much loved. She is a good mini.

I have the money to give my animals the best care, food etc..etc.. but I do not normally have tons to spend on a horse.

My Royally bred Blk Ice mare is the most I paid for a horse, I could not buy a horse like that more than every 6 years.

 

[littlesteppers]

Okay ..last post..roundup..

Breed only IF you can keep the foals.

Breed to the best quality you can afford.

Stick to your prices ..and IF you don't sale..you make your Taxman VERY happy!! :bgrin

This is of cause just my humbled opinion!

 

[stormy]

I guess I have a problem with blaming everything on overproduction. I do think we are making too many minis for the current economy but I think the fact that gas is so high, drought or flooding have driven up feed prices, the focus on ethonal has driven up grain price and the general lack of stability in the job market has impacted EVERYTHING, including the horse market. When breeders were seeing record prices the stock market was setting record highs every day, people had money to spend for a luxury item like a horse. I think a lot of us just responded to late to the lack of disposable income, I know I did. Now I am one trying to reduce my herd as my job (as many others) is not secure and I could end up having to relocate to keep earning. Sure the cream still sells, there are those who have disposable wealth, but the % of people with the extra cash and security is dwindling daily.

 

[capall beag]

I honestly think what one person considers 'quality' another may consider less than etc

I think a breeder should look at their breeding program annually and be willing to alter it accordingly should the need arise.

If the demand is not there for what you are providing then either stop supplying it or change/alter the product being produced.

A mini is a height anything under 38". For some they want the latest show model, for others a flashy, tiny colored horse, another wants a companion animal etc, etc. There is a market out there for a variety but you just have to figure out what it is.

I don't think you can tell another breeder what to do and how to do it.

Heck, if it is your hobby and you have the means to sustain it breed what you like, just don't assume you can sell them

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If it is a business you better know the demand is there before you supply any more, otherwise you'll go broke

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[Russ]

Hi Christine good post, I live in Iowa and am really pretty shocked to hear of double reg. bred mares going for 250.00. Kinda sad to hear that it has come to this now.

I haven't been hearing of any prices that low for mares this year....maybe non registered but certainly not double reg.....maybe at a sale or sale barn on occasion but certainly not the going rate if they are good quality, healthy mares with no special needs. Of course things happen and areas can differ in price, maybe they wanted to sell them fast or had other reasons to let them go..... and maybe that could be why the price was so low. With the market always full of horses for sale.....it can be hard to sell anything if you need to move it fast in Iowa.

There are alot of mini breeders in Iowa(some do it as a business and others for a hobby)....some belong to this forum/some don't.....this just really surprises me, 250.00. I saw alot of money being spent by some Iowa breeders this year...it sure doesn't appear that the mini market is down for them. Of course I'm not naive and realize image is everything to some....the average going rate for bred mares doesn't buy campers/motor homes, new trailers or trucks either. You'd have to sell alot of foals to pay for that kind of lifestyle. In reality, it takes a really good outside job/business to support the horses or a really rich dead aunt that you never knew you had to crawl out of the woodwork to pay for things......ha ha teasing :bgrin

I always admire the breeders who strive to improve their herds.....you can have all the fancy bells and whistles in life and they are fun to have but the quality of horses produced is what talks the talk....

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[Minimor]

"Quality will still sell"Lets back that up..

Even the best farms have culls.............even National Champions bred to National Champions can be culls.

What I find especially sad is when someone goes & buys one of those culls from one of those "best" farms--and the buyer believes he/she got a top quality horse. Why? Because it has a big name sire, a dam that might have a couple big name horses it her pedigree, horse has a big name prefix and was bought for a high price. All that adds up to a quality horse, not a cull. Right?

On the subject of low priced horses ending up in bad homes. Yes, sometimes they do. But not always. I've got a couple of $250 geldings here and I can assure you I offer a good home. Those low priced little geldings get treated exactly the same as the higher priced horses....it doesn't matter to me how much or how little I paid, they all get well cared for. If I'm looking after someone else's horse, it would get cared for exactly the same as I care for my own. Sadly I do know people who don't do it the same way--they will keep someone else's horse & be mean to it, or not feed it....those same people will figure a low priced horse is expendable--it's not worth anything & so not worth taking care of. Or it gets shipped to slaughter because killer price is higher than what they paid for the horse.

On the other hand, I also know people that abuse and neglect high priced horses. I sometimes think that some people have animals just for the sake of being mean to them. If one has the money to spend, they'll spend it to buy the horse--then they might lose interest, or the horse gets hurt, or the horse misbehaves--they decide they aren't going to spend another dime on that horse because he's cost too much already. Horse ends up as mistreated as a low priced horse in a different bad home.

 

[minimule]

I am more than willing to take in "free" or low priced horses. They need to go somewhere don't they? Don't they deserve a chance at a good home? I don't believe every mare that breathes needs to be bred either. I have 2 mares here now that shouldn't be and as long as I have a say in it, they won't be. There are folks out there that do breed anything that moves. When we do move to TX, I'm looking for plenty of land so that some of those poor little mares can retire and live out a wonderful, loved, well cared for life.

I know of some horses right now that were not "cheap" that were purchased and have since been rescued because of their lack of care. I think a lot of folks get into the minis because "they are so cute" but have no clue what to do with them or how to care for a horse.

I also turn down people looking for a mare that doesn't matter if she is regsitered or not, so she can breed her. Sorry, move along.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

What's sad to me is that a dedicated few (the forum for example) may pledge to better the breed, but the general consensus still remains damaging. We have always bred for very few here--our biggest foal crop in 25 years was three--and when we decide we don't want to breed a mare anymore we retire her or sell her to a pet home (aka: people we know and trust), but we are surrounded by breeders--both big and small--that will breed every mare on their farm. And instead of slowing down when the market is bad, they buy a whole new load of mares at the lower auction prices and pump out twice as many foals as the year before at half the price. It does make me wonder where they're cutting corners to sell a horse at that price... So the general public looks in the paper and repeatedly sees they can get a registered mini for $500. And that mini has four legs, a mane, and tail just like ours, so when they pull up to the farm they're outraged to find we don't have any $500 minis.

While I don't think showing is necessarily the answer, I don't think people that are active in showing overbreed the same way that hobby farms do. If you've spent the time and money to send a horse out there, then you know what it takes to win (in regards to both money and quality) and are aware that random breeding is probably not going to produce a champion. I don't want to offend anyone--after all we haven't shown a horse in a couple years--so I guess I should clarify that education and awareness seem like the deciding factor (whether you get out there and show, or just follow the results in your breed mags). And sure, the big farms could be viewed as overbreeding, except you rarely see them advertising slashed prices because they don't have space or food for their horses.

 

[MyBarakah]

I just paid $102. this morning for my feed and shavings for the week. And you wonder why so many liquidate?

Clearly, I am running a non profit organization.

The fact is, there are not enough buyers in the world for miniature horses or any horses no matter what you have.

Just like there are not enough homes for the homeless animals. They are surplus.

It's not like you are selling something that is a need such as brakes for your truck, or food for your table.


This is a "luxury" item that comes with tons of bills and responsibilities and non stop commitment. Not a lot of people want what we are peddling.

 


Maybe 1 in every fifty thousand or more people will want to buy a miniature horse.

 


I don't care what you have; how you going to get that 1 person to pick your horse?

 


And for the ones that maneuver, buy, sell, to improve their herd quality and remove their cull horses from their program, well, those culls have to land somewhere, so they will go to a lesser farm and be bred there. It's a cycle of life. It is not going to ever stop.

 


For most of those that get out there and campaign their animals, they are dumping tons of money, time, blood, sweat, and tears that may never pay off for them, break even, and may even get them in the hole that much more. It's a really big gamble. So showing is not an answer. It's just another huge expense.

 


I'm already so disgusted and I just got started!

 


I put the plug in Nick this year and told him "no, sorry boy, you ain't getting any"......I'm in deep enough already

 


Someone pass me a rag, I'm having a panic attack

 


:aktion033: WELL SAID Marty!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I'm in the deal that you mentioned...... I'm the one in the hole a HUGE amount.......but love showing these minis and want to take these guys to as high of level as I can......


I have 2 maybe 3 mares bred back for next year....... I decided my sr.stallion will be gelded if the "right" home doesn't come along before Nationals..... I think that there is SOOOOOOO much of any breed out there..... for me......... to get anyone's interest (goal in mind) and where I can only have a few mares..... I have to try to get as good of breeding stock as possible....which does NOT take long with such a small herd for me to decide if they are going to work or not... (and I'm PICKY PICKY)....... I am happy with my girls....and have a couple YOUNG boys that I think will do VERY WELL with thier man hood & the show pen.....but in the mean time........ I may just have to let my girls sit a year or two out with producing babies....because......... to me....... it does NOT make any sense or is NOT worth while to raise a foal and to turn around and sell it for only $500-$800!!!!!!!!!!!!! For a decent A & R colt! It's going to have to be a HEAD turner to get anyone's attention (and good photos!)...... The market's TUFF and it's going to stay that way for QUITE some time!! So it ONLY makes SENSE to me to have some good stuff if I'm going to breed anything or it's NOT worth while!!


So bottom line..... if I don't get anything moved.... I will NOT be breeding my mares either..... I can't just take my children (my minis) to a sale barn and unload them on someone else...... I could NEVER live with myself!! BUt trying to strive for a "excellent" top of the line "SHOW Quality" is what I strive for!!


I think people need to be more selective in thier breeding program (Like over in Europe!!)... If that was the case we'd only have 1/3 of the minis we do now in the US (or any bred of HORSE! or ANIMAL!!)....... We are just TOOO democratic here in the US!! That's what's wrong with our country today!!!!!!!! It's ALL going to SH*T!

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[MeadowRidge Farm]

I have been saying for years...everyone needs to cut back on breeding, every single mare. I have 30 mares, hence I could have 30 foals a year..I have had in the past 4 years 9 foals! Its makes me so mad when I hear the comments made..well, the horses have to pay for themselves..if thats the case, maybe you shouldnt have horses to start with, since its obvious the only reason you have those horses is to sell foals and make money, regardless if its only $200.00 per foal. How many of those breeders actually stick any money back into the horses when something happens...usually then it turns out to be a giveaway horse. In WIsc. there are so many breeders who will breed every single mare every year, sell them for low prices, and then wonder why the horse prices are so bad..HELLLOOOO---its people like you doing it to the market!

I also dont like to hear about breeding inferior horses, I agree it shouldnt be done but every breeding cannot guarantee the "show quality horse" either. No one is ever going to tell me that the big name breeders who have 100 plus minis are producing nothing but show quality, and how many times does a avg. horse sell for big prices because of the farm name involved, and not the actual horse.

The past 2 years I have come home with so many horses, and dirt cheap prices, and at one time these were very pricey mares, I brought them home ...only to give them a lasting home and not to be resold, only because it was either me or they didnt care what happened to the horse. No horse deserves..no love or attention in its life. I dont care if its a $100,000. show horse or a $50.00 pet~~ they all deserve to be loved and treated with human kindness, along with necessary vet care, and have a barn to call home!

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I

I also dont like to hear about breeding inferior horses, I agree it shouldnt be done but every breeding cannot guarantee the "show quality horse" either. !

I couldnt agree more first off everyone has a different idea of what is inferior even judges

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and if it were ever as easy as breeding a National champion to get a National champion... well then we would almost all have National champions.. it just doesnt work that way

That doesnt mean I think that everyone should breed willy nilly but I have seen amazing horses bought cheap and crappy ones bought for big bucks the $ amount in my experience anyway has little to do with the life and or potential a horse has

 

[SWA]

No horse deserves..no love or attention in its life. I dont care if its a $100,000. show horse or a $50.00 pet~~ they all deserve to be loved and treated with human kindness, along with necessary vet care, and have a barn to call home!

I so agree.

: In all my 12 years "in minis" I've bred for only 3 foals, and thankfully I do still own all 3 of them. (By the Grace of God!) My only other "mini" I have is my gelding, and though not "breedable", (because he is a "gelding"), he is for sale, and priced accordingly to his training and experience. Actually, I've been told by many here lately that I have him priced well below his true value, but I'm most interested in a HOME for him, one that will love and appreciate him for him.

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I do plan to purchase a quality stallion though, and hopefully also at least one more mare. When I do though, he won't be bred to every mare I have, which is only 3 currently. I hope to improve upon what I have with quality, not quantity. That is my goal anyway.

: Will try for at least 1 for 2008, and will see what that produces, and then hopefully move forward from there. Pending of course, I can buy a stallion within this year???

: If not, it won't be until 2009 before I try for another quality foal hopeful.

: I'm in no mad rush or anything.

: We'll see how things develop, I guess. :saludando:

In my shopping quest so far though, I've been VERY hard pressed to find any of those low priced quality horses that others seem so lucky to be encountering.

: But, then I'm not just looking for "any ol" low priced ones available, I guess. I'm looking for what "I" would like to see in my pasture, and what could hopefully be worthy contenders among others in the show ring.

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[Bess Kelly]

Personally, I feel almost all of the things brought up are a part of the current market prices -- which are a little lower than when I first started buying.

: Actually, I see many more of the lower priced than I ever was seeing when my herd was being assembled -- BUT, a really, really good horse is still bringing in appropriate money, IMO.

I'm one of the "older" mini farms -- started small, worked my rear off to achieve accomplishments of which I am still very proud. Yep, I'm one of those who had a waiting list for my few yearly foals and never had to wait more than one ad to sell a mare, especially if bred! Can say that I turned down sizeable offers for some of my animals, one mare a huge amount, never regretted it and I still own her today (a Natl Ch AMHA sr halter mare). She is now a fine looking 20 year old, has spent 14 years with me, had her first foal for me (@7 yrs old) and she will never have to leave by my decision. In all those years I have bred her 3 times. Still own one of her sons (in avatar). Several of my first animals are still here, aging nicely. A couple mares were bought at auction, without my being there, and I made the decision when they arrived that no breeding would happen for them -- they were ok, fine personality but not my choice for conformation. They are still here and are never bred....many show mares, with top national titles, have lived here without being bred or bred once or twice...some are still here! Not all breeders overpopulate or sell for pennies on the dollar.

: My farm is far from fancy but, animals are happy, fed, sheltered and loved.

I have sold 4 nice foals in the past 6 yrs, to great homes for excellent prices. All are still there & the owners update me and love them. All of the foals were colts, three were gelded at my suggestion for the owners comfort -- one is a fine, tiny stallion and has one mini gelding for a companion. I've kept the 5 fillies that were born, youngest is now 5 :bgrin, never bred them but I will -- probably next year. Hoping my grandaughter will become interested in working with them in a couple of years, she's only 5 but loves them!

Would hope to see her take a couple in the showring

: That would be "full circle" for me.

Consider myself to be one of the lucky ones? ABSOUTELY! My horses worked hard for me and now it's my turn to work hard for them, loving it still

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