What gives??

[allaboutminis]

I will not go into any details on here. But things needs to stop

 

[jeniemac]

I will not go into any details on here. But things needs to stop

 

[Jacki Loomis]

Thanks, Jacki! How nice of you! We are really looking forward to the trip, in fact getting our last minute running done to be ready to pull out early Thursday morning and beat the heat. Do you think it would be possible that you will have some time to chat with me a little about this topic up there? It sounds like you've been showing a long time. I'd love to be able to talk with someone face-to-face about my original question. Then again, as show secretary, you may not have time. I totally understad that. lol

I'm looking forward to meeting you at the show and will be glad to visit. I'm not the show secretary, just the secretary of the club hosting the show so I'll only be busy with my own horses and helping with a few things. Have a safe trip up to Lincoln. Just ask around at the show for Ed & Jacki Loomis, most people know us around there.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]

 

[Mominis]

Oh sheesh....I was just teasing with the "Jerry, Jerry, Jerry" post. Sorry. Didn't mean to throw fuel on a fire.

 

[Sue_C.]

These past few "posts" have gone right over MY head...good thing, I think

 

[Mominis]

There is a VERY simple answer to that question - POPULATION. There are only about 1000 ASPC Shetlands registered PER YEAR. There are 8000+ AMHR miniatures registered per year (AMHR new registration numbers have been in the 12,000 range in the last decade whereas ASPC numbers in the last decade have never even been close to 1500).

A qualification requirement for Shetlands would probably have very little effect on local show attendance. Most Shetlands are already showing at two or more shows prior to Congress each year.

Going back to the topic that Jacki brought up and Lewella replied to...wouldn't having qualifications for Nationals for Shetlands help the local clubs, like she mentioned? Even if they are just a requirement to show under x-and so many judges, I can see how it may help stimulate breeders to produce more to get the registration numbers up.

 

[Lewella]

Going back to the topic that Jacki brought up and Lewella replied to...wouldn't having qualifications for Nationals for Shetlands help the local clubs, like she mentioned? Even if they are just a requirement to show under x-and so many judges, I can see how it may help stimulate breeders to produce more to get the registration numbers up.

The horse market as a whole does not currently support a larger population for any breed. The breeding population of Shetlands does not support larger production of quality animals either. As I mentioned, the vast majority of Shetlands that showed at Congress had attended two or more local shows this year, many having shown in half a dozen or more. I really don't see a qualification requirement for Shetlands increasing entries since the Shetlands that are going to show are going to show and show a lot all year working towards their Hall of Fames.

 

[Mellis815]

Maybe they should be glad the miniatures haven't tried to separate and make their own way...now THERE'S a thought...

Umm...maybe I am reading this wrong, but yea, we did the AMHA and the AMHR those were the mini registries, and the ponies had ASPC...so what were you trying to say here? Just trying to clarify

 

[Mellis815]

I said that "tongue in cheek", but if the ENTIRE REGISTRY moved, it wouldn't be anything like the World Class.

I think it could be EASILY solved...if we must accept them, they must accept they stay within their own division.

This is just a case of wanting their cake and eating it too...and I for one get so tired of hearing how WE must accept it and shut the He** up about it, 'cause the ASPC was here first...our minis are Shetland anyways...

if the ASPC was here first....Then why, might I ask, is the miniature horse registry carrying the shetlands!?? and why isn't the shetland shows more prominent and money making?? and why aren't there more registered shetlands every year vs the minis?? I am not going to shut the He** up about it when there are more of us that are showing and promoting the miniature breed vs the shetlands, and we support the ponies financially! How about this...why don't YOU start showing at your own shows, at your own level and let us see who does better at the end of the year? Then we can all sit down and eat cake together!

 

[midnight star stables]

Mary Lou, why do we even have this emoticon?

LOL I think we should get the "big girl panties" one... Hehehe.

Sorry, of topic.

You know what? After reading and sitting on this post for a while, I have a desire to buy a ASPC/AMHR pony.

I'm thinking, wouldn't it be neat to show my mini as a mini, but also show as a shetland the next weekend if there are ASPC classes? Now I love my minis and that IS all I own. But I would be open to the right ASPC/AMHR, and I really do think it is neat that I have new shows open to me. I'd also love to show in Park harness someday too.

I think it is bizarre how the word "Shetland" can cause SO many strong feelings when placed beside the word "Miniature". I'm not saying either is right or wrong, as both have stunning horses, I simply find it odd.

And good or bad, (Prince aside) I can not think of a recent Grand champion in halter at Nationals(These past few years) that wasn't of Shetland breeding. I don't know of them all, but many. Thoughts on this?

 

[kaykay]

The ASPC has been a breed club since the 1800's. Some marketing geniuses decided to start marketing their small SHETLANDS as "Miniature horses". Brilliant people if you ask me. Some of theses breeders even made up wonderful stories to add to the mystique of where these Miniature horses came from. To keep up the mystery many even threw out the ASPC papers on these small Shetlands. To do this they created a height registry called AMHR. When these people created AMHR they made sure to write in certain bylaws so that ASPC could never be overtaken by its own creation--AMHR. This is common practice in any business that creates another business.

Later some breeders broke off from AMHR and created AMHA.

So without the ASPC there would be no AMHR OR AMHA.

Kinda like saying Coke created Diet Coke but Coke will always own Diet Coke.

Lastly if you really look you will find that most people own ASPC, ASPC/AMHR, AND AMHR horses. So there is no us and them its just us.

I pay for my AMHR papers just like everyone else does. Every time I register one of our ASPC/AMHR foals I pay double fees.

I think we can all agree that for years Miniature horses were way over bred. They are small and dont take a lot of room. In their heyday when they were bringing in 20,000.00 just because they were small, it was not uncommon to see farms with 200 miniatures. Now we see even larger farms scaling back.

I think overall that is a good thing as the numbers go down I do believe the quality is going up.

Kay

 

[RayVik]

When these people created AMHR they made sure to write in certain bylaws so that ASPC could never be overtaken by its own creation--AMHR.

As a point of clarification,

Not exactly sure what you are meaning by this statement but the bylaws can be changed by the membership at any annual meeting as they see fit...The Articles of Incorporation which supersede the bylaws clearly define this action...these apply to the organization as a whole nothing specific regarding any "take over" is in anyway addressed. If you are referring to Board seats and how they are determined as presently established by the bylaws as to reflect to 50% of the board members must own a majority of Shetland pony's then that as any other bylaw can be changed by the membership if they desire. The organization is not founded on one against the other or as separate entities rather for the purposes of " small equine". Although it often seems some do think it is separate but equal... it is not ... it is for the good of all and/or the what is best for the organization as a whole not any subsection thereof.

Not intended to rob thread or create an issue ...just a point of clarification...

 

[Mominis]

What a wonderfully easy to understand explanation, Kay. Thanks for that.

 

[kaykay]

I agree Ray they can be changed. But currently that is how it is. I didnt make those bylaws, just showing why things were done the way there are/were back when AMHR was created. It has changed a lot over the years and I suspect there will be more changes. I am also going by what I was told at peoples kitchen tables on the creation of AMHR. I was lucky to be able to visit with Lowell (and others that were there) many times and was fascinated by his stories on how AMHR and AMHA were created.

The organization is not founded on one against the other or as separate entities rather for the purposes of " small equine".

I never meant to imply anyone was one against the other as anyone who reads my post knows I hate that mind set. Its just business practices--but I think some take it as a personal insult.

This is from the registry website:

The American Shetland Pony Club was founded in 1888 as a registry to keep the pedigrees for all the Shetlands that were being imported from Europe at that time.
It has expanded to four separate breeds under one club: The Classic American Shetland Pony, The Modern American Shetland Pony, The American Miniature Horse Registry and The American Show Pony Registry.

Kay

 

[~Lisa~]

Kay while your history is correct that does nothing but prove the fact that the Shetlands in and of themselves could not support themselves and there was not a lot of interest even now many years later take the word Shetland out and use Miniature and guess what people want them. Put the word Shetland back in and guess what the majority still does not want them.

Miniatures are overbreed and poorly breed guess what so are Shetlands they to are small to the big horse owner.

This is not about right or wrong no one will change the other sides mind it is about not forcing something down the majorities throat cause we now want it to be. I hear so many saying we have to run our registry like a business on this and other forums. Well if the customers (masses) wants pink and blue you better stock pink and blue you can not stock yellow and say sorry this is really what you want and it is so much better then anything pink or blue you have ever bought before. Only yellow can truly be what you want even if you dont like it.

I have said many times I love my ponies in fact I prefer ponies but that doesnt change the historical fact that the masses do not want Shetlands and have not wanted Shetlands. It does not change the fact that the miniatures do have the majority in funding or the fact that some seem to be so afraid of the power this majority AMHR truly holds (that most AMHR members do not even realize yet) That those same people cry so hard why is it a us vs them in trying to prove some sort of point and do not realize they are the ones truly making it a us vs them arguement and not looking at the financial side of this whole thing

 

[hunterridgefarm]

I and many here do not know what is going/went on BUT PLEASE... keep personal matters off this forum..

THANK YOU MARY LOU

 

[kaykay]

Kay while your history is correct that does nothing but prove the fact that the Shetlands in and of themselves could not support themselves

Since the majority were shetlands they did support themselves, but just with a different name and a different paper.

I am not trying to argue with anyone because people either love the American Shetland or not and that is fine. Again this is what is so great about ASPC/AMHR. There is a horse for everyone in about every size!

But how this all came about is the history of our club. I didnt do it, I didnt write the bylaws. But I will always say those breeders back then were brilliant. No disputing that.

I think there are quite a few people that really dont know the history and how this all started. I know when people new to the American Shetland ask me about it they are always amazed that this is how it all began.

 

[~Lisa~]

Kay I was just pointing out the market was not there for the ASPC ponies which is why a few very smart marketing minds decided to rename them Minis and that market truly took off. For whatever reason the majority of the public prefers the miniature over the Shetland and prefers not to acknowledge any of the Shetland breeding be it then or now they want Miniatures.

Again right or wrong, logical or not- agree with it or not it is simply the way it is

 

[midnight star stables]

I found them!!!!

 

[Sue_C.]

Some of theses breeders even made up wonderful stories to add to the mystique of where these Miniature horses came from. To keep up the mystery many even threw out the ASPC papers on these small Shetlands. To do this they created a height registry called AMHR.

But, you are also forgetting the Falabella influence, the Welsh, the British Spotted Pony, and the Internationaly registered horses brought over from Europe, and whatever else there was small enough to be bred down...it isn't just the American Shetland that "made" the Miniature horse of today...although a lot would like to think so.