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Hi Tina,

If your 38 inches or less Shetland Pony also has AMHR and/or AMHA registration papers it would always be welcome to show at a Miniature Horse show. It is too bad for folks who have limited shows in their area, we are so lucky here in Area VI as we have plenty of show options. We can go to AMHR & ASPC shows, AMHR only shows and AMHA only shows.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]
Thank you Jacki.

But what if I was to say I wanted to take my horse with AMHA/ASPC papers to mini nationals. Would I be welcomed there?

And let's go as far as saying I wanted to show my AMHR/ASPC in driving? Would I still be welcomed? From the many threads on this topic, I don't think I would be welcomed. I guess as long as I don't beat anyone I would be welcomed.
 
Thank you Jacki.

But what if I was to say I wanted to take my horse with AMHA/ASPC papers to mini nationals. Would I be welcomed there?

And let's go as far as saying I wanted to show my AMHR/ASPC in driving? Would I still be welcomed? From the many threads on this topic, I don't think I would be welcomed. I guess as long as I don't beat anyone I would be welcomed.
AHhhhh......now you've got the picture! And I'm sorry but I believe you're right!
 
Why not compete as a Shetland???? Well, these "odd" guy out mini-Shetlands don't seem to fit anywhere. If you show them as Shetlands, they are criticized for being too small for a Modern or too high headed for a Classic etc. If you show them as Minis, because as a height based registry - they are minis, then everyone crys foul, "they're not a 'real' mini"!

I have nice minis that compete very well but I bought one these double registered guys because I love to drive and I love their action. I happen to like AMHR shows. And yes I've been to Shetland and still prefer the AMHR show.

SO I want to know just where everyone would like these (god forbid but somehow allowed them to be bred) Small Moderns or Classics to fit?
My question has always been if small shetlands can not compete why not add height divisions to the shetland registry/shows instead of trying to make AMHR into the miniature shetland registry. In shetland shows you would be showing by type also, not all lumped together like is being done right now in AMHR.

Show shetlands as Shetlands and expand the shetland registry to accomadate the new smaller ponys, promote shetlands as a breed!
 
Thank you Jacki.

But what if I was to say I wanted to take my horse with AMHA/ASPC papers to mini nationals. Would I be welcomed there?

And let's go as far as saying I wanted to show my AMHR/ASPC in driving? Would I still be welcomed? From the many threads on this topic, I don't think I would be welcomed. I guess as long as I don't beat anyone I would be welcomed.
Tina,

I show and our club puts on AMHR and AMHA shows and so I can say from first hand experience that when you enter a show all you submit are the set of papers for the division you are entering, no one even knows if a particular horse/pony has another set because they never see them. If you are entering your under 38" Shetland and it also has AMHR registration papers then of course it is welcome at AMHR Miniature Nationals!

My horses that also have ASPC papers show at AMHR shows all the time, the Shetland papers stay home in the book since I don't show shetland they just never come out to the shows.

I don't see or hear much about this issue at our shows in Area VI but I think finding sone consensus is one of the challenges facing our organization in the coming years. My hope is that better minds than mine are thinking of solutions and sharing them with their directors.Jacki Loomis

[email protected]
 
What a boost it would be to ASPC and the numbers they have at local shows if those smaller Shetlands actually showed ASPC...
 
AHhhhh......now you've got the picture! And I'm sorry but I believe you're right!
Sandy, nobody has come out and stated for me not to show this horse I described. Jacki has come out and welcomed me. But what if "I" had the extreme shetland that people don't believe should be shown as a mini, against mini types?

And I wonder it is not just because a certain horse won due to the type or conformation, or could it be because certain people own them and certain people handle them? Then the prejudice is not against the equine, but the owner/handler/trainer perhaps.
 
What a boost it would be to ASPC and the numbers they have at local shows if those smaller Shetlands actually showed ASPC...

You are right, what keeps us out of the Shetland show arena is the small amount of competition. The last 2 times we were getting Shetlands ready for a show they would have been without competition so we just showed one of them AMHR and left the other one at home (only ASPC Papers). From our point of view it is just too much work to get any horse or pony ready to show to go through it and not have any competition.

It is the same thing with AMHR Park Harness, my viceroy has not been out in 4 years. My National Grand Champion Park Harness horse shows pleasure and roadster because I don't want to go through all the work of hauling the viceroy to find that I'm the only one in the class.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]
 
What a boost it would be to ASPC and the numbers they have at local shows if those smaller Shetlands actually showed ASPC...
Lisa, there are not as many shetland shows to go to as there are AMHR or AMHA. And people are going to take those horses first to be able to qualify for the corresponding Nationals or World.

Granted as Jacki said it is not a problem in his area, but not are so lucky. I have to wait until our Area show each year to show. When there are AMHR shows at least one to twice a month in my area.
 
What a boost it would be to ASPC and the numbers they have at local shows if those smaller Shetlands actually showed ASPC...

This verges on being off topic for the miniature forum but I'll throw this comment out in response and if it needs shut down then I'll accept my fate willingly!!

Along the same lines as you mention I've always thought it would be a big boost to the Shetland entries at the local ASPC/AMHR shows if Shetlands had to meet the qualifying standards to attend their Congress like Miniatures have to to attend Miniature Nationals. I think that would really help the entries and also make it feel more equitable. What do you think?

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]
 
You are right, what keeps us out of the Shetland show arena is the small amount of competition. The last 2 times we were getting Shetlands ready for a show they would have been without competition so we just showed one of them AMHR and left the other one at home (only ASPC Papers). From our point of view it is just too much work to get any horse or pony ready to show to go through it and not have any competition.

It is the same thing with AMHR Park Harness, my viceroy has not been out in 4 years. My National Grand Champion Park Harness horse shows pleasure and roadster because I don't want to go through all the work of hauling the viceroy to find that I'm the only one in the class.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]
Jacki,

I had the same problem this year. Traveled all the way to the area show and there were no other MP's. Luckily I showed gelding incentive to help offset cost involved in showing. Didn't even show regular class since the Grand Champ would not count towards HOF. He would have been only one.
 
Recently, there was a big to-do about how minis were becoming little moderns and what a problem that is. I just was looking at the recent AMHA World link and I've been reading my Journals as well. Here's my question...so many people make a big thing about how their horses look like mini Arabians. The tack is Arabian show horse-like, the presentation is Arabian-ish and the horses seem to be bred that way. Why is it preferred that a mini look like an Arabian, but it is a no-no if they look "mini moderns" (which, to my uneducated eye, look like little Saddlebreds). Why isn't it okay to breed for a different type, like the Saddlebred or modern Morgan look and have it not be as accepted or encouraged as breeding for an Arabian type?
Coming into this topic kind of late, I'd like to try to answer Mominis with my opinion so I'll go back to what I see in the show ring today. (We probably mostly agree that what we see in the show ring sets the breeding standard for our breed)

I'm just fresh from the AMHA Central Championship Show in Wichita KS. What I see in AMHA is a distinctive 'type' developing. I know many people like to say their miniatures are 'Arabian type', but in truth I see only limited resemblence to an arabian horse. Instead what I see is a very well balanced horse that is correct in body structure with that body structure (conformation) allowing for an atheletic individual. (and by atheletic I am not meaning the one with the highest knee/hock action at the trot) Fortunately, within our breed, we have a wide variety of performance venues in which to exhibit the atheletic prowess of our horses. I saw a number of halter horses with nice atheletic movement and I saw performance horses that can also stand in the halter ring.

Now as to why the miniature halter horses tend to use Arabian styled show halters....I do think those types of show halters are better suited to the very small heads of our miniatures. Yes, a western type show halter is used in some classes, but no matter how finly made, that type halter does cover up quite a bit of a 30" mini's head.

I, for one, am just very proud of the direction we are going with our little horses. They are beautiful to look at, they are little atheletes, and they have wonderful minds and temperaments that allow us to enjoy our association with them whether we are showing or just loving on them.

There may come a time when the membership decides to change the Standard Of Perfection and the breed heads off in another direction, but right now the AMHA Standard Of Perfection doesn't have different sections in it for different 'types' of horses. I don't know if that would be a good thing or a bad thing.

Charlotte
 
This verges on being off topic for the miniature forum but I'll throw this comment out in response and if it needs shut down then I'll accept my fate willingly!!

Along the same lines as you mention I've always thought it would be a big boost to the Shetland entries at the local ASPC/AMHR shows if Shetlands had to meet the qualifying standards to attend their Congress like Miniatures have to to attend Miniature Nationals. I think that would really help the entries and also make it feel more equitable. What do you think?

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]
If Shetlands had to qualify then, IMHO, there would be even less at Congress. I just came from Congress and while the halter classes were well represented, the driving classes had between 0 and 5 in the class. To me that wasn't a "National" competetion but then I've only been to 3 or 4 Shetland shows and the only one with a fair amount (compared to an AMHR show)of Shetlands attending was Ohio St Fair. I don't know if there aren't as many Shetlands as there are Minis or if Shetland people don't want to compete or what the difference is.
 
Can I ask a question?

Say I have a shetland that is 38 inches or less. And in my area, there are no shetland shows. Only AMHR and AMHA shows that are held in all the states around me and not even in my own state. And to show shetland I would have to travel at least three states away to show.

Now I would make the decision to show and only want to travel one state away instead of three. I show up at a AMHR show with this animal. So is someone going to tell me I need to travel to another show further away to show because I have a dual registered shetland and they don't want to show against this animal because it is a shetland.

How fair is this scenario?

If you have a 38 inch horse then why are you not showing it????

No you can not take it to a show and show in both.....

And in area 3 there is a lot shows that you can go to.

If you have to travel that is part of showing horses right. I dont think someone will tell you to leave a show.

You have NC that has sheltlands classes and you have Tn and Fl too. so what is the big deal if you have to travel.. we all do it sometimes.

Tina you was at the NC show... YOu should of showed the horse then. why not...

I have to travel from Fl to that show to show you can do the same
 
If Shetlands had to qualify then, IMHO, there would be even less at Congress. I just came from Congress and while the halter classes were well represented, the driving classes had between 0 and 5 in the class. To me that wasn't a "National" competetion but then I've only been to 3 or 4 Shetland shows and the only one with a fair amount (compared to an AMHR show)of Shetlands attending was Ohio St Fair. I don't know if there aren't as many Shetlands as there are Minis or if Shetland people don't want to compete or what the difference is.

Interesting, so if Miniatures did not have to qualify I wonder if AMHR National and AMHA World shows would get even bigger?

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]
 
Ruffian, if you were referring to me, I was certainly not offended by your reply. I asked because I wanted to know.
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As an uneducated observer, and having never seen the AMHR Nationals (until this September....can hardly wait!!), it's really hard to have an opinion either way on what many of you have said. I have only been to one show since getting the mini (and now miniS...lol) and that was an AMHR/ASPC show back in June.

With that said, I wonder why there is such an internal stuggle with the mini/pony thing. I mean, we are governed by the same association as each other. Frankly, I think it's silly not to be able to show in both ASPC and AMHR classes at the same show, if the horse is eligible. I also don't see why they don't combine the Nationals, both the Ponies and the Minis and save the registry itself a TON of money from having to put on two separate shows. I'm sure I'll need my Kevlar suit for saying that, but having watched the Congress online, it didn't seem to me that there were so many entries that it would be time prohibitive, but as I said, I haven't seen AMHR Nationals yet. Again, as the unedcuated observer, I would think that there would be more of an issue about the AMHA/AMHR horses cross showing into the ASPC/AMHR registry shows than horses of the same governing registry.

I really wasn't trying to start up the mini v pony debate again. All I was trying to get to was why it is okay to promote a horse if they are of a certain (Arabian) type and not if they are more of another (ASB or Modern Shetland) type.

Wow, this is so confusing for a newcomer. Please bear with me as I am trying to figure all of this out.

PS Jacki, if your viceroy needs a new home, drop me a PM LOL!
 
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If you have a 38 inch horse then why are you not showing it????

No you can not take it to a show and show in both.....

And in area 3 there is a lot shows that you can go to.

If you have to travel that is part of showing horses right. I dont think someone will tell you to leave a show.

You have NC that has sheltlands classes and you have Tn and Fl too. so what is the big deal if you have to travel.. we all do it sometimes.

Tina you was at the NC show... YOu should of showed the horse then. why not...

I have to travel from Fl to that show to show you can do the same
Yes I do have a 37 inch horse that is not showing right now and that is due to certain reasons. And of this horse I was told to not show it in my area and definitely not to beat anyone.

Yes, I was at the NC show and did you know that I was not welcomed. In fact I was escorted off the showgrounds, in fact I was escorted to my vehicle by the judge and told to leave so they could start the show.

And was told it was in the best interest of the show as a spectator. And no I did not break any rules that are set forth by AMHR as to why an exhibitor can be removed, but again I was a spectator. So wonder why I don't attend certain shows, because I would be asked to leave.
 
Mominis, You are going to LOVE AMHR Nationals!! You will likely be amazed at just how big it is, how many wonderful horses there are, and how long of a show day it is. We all have horror stories about showing very late into the night, waking up kids to show, etc. I do think it has been much better scheduled since it expanded and we moved to Tulsa but get ready for a long, wonderful week!

My husband got out of ponies back in the 70s and sold his original viceroy, he still regrets it so I expect I'll hang on to my mini size one and someday I'll bring another Park Harness horse out just for fun.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]
 
Maybe instead of saying the problem is the winning done by the ASPC/AMHR horses-- I should have said the problem is fear, as “fear” can cover both showing and breeding/selling. Exhibitors fear that their straight AMHR horses cannot compete against the Shetlands. Breeders of straight AMHR horses fear that no one will buy their horses because buyers prefer the ASPC/AMHR horses. (Why? Because those buyers apparently might presume that they will do better in the showring if they have ASPC/AMHR and/or their future clients will prefer to purchase ASPC/AMHR horses.

If show people didn’t fear that their AMHR horses will get beat by the Shetlands, and if breeders didn’t fear that they will lose their market to the Shetlands—then none of these people would have a problem with Shetlands being in the registry. If Shetlands were short legged, stumble footed, stumpy, dumpy and just plain UGLY with mean personalities, no one would care if there were some poor souls out there trying to show the wretched creatures, nor would anyone care of there were some breeders that were misguided enough to be breeding those same wretched creatures!! Just because someone else was breeding such a creature wouldn’t mean that they would have to give up their straight AMHR horses and turn to breeding those same creatures themselves! In fact, I’ll bet they would feel very smug because their straight AMHR horses were so far superior to those Shetlands. The attitude would be “yeah, some people are breeding and showing them but we always beat them so they are of no consequence…as long as they are of no consequence, let them pay their money to support us and our superiority”

I have heard that sentiment expressed in too many groups too many times to not know how it goes.

Interesting, so if Miniatures did not have to qualify I wonder if AMHR National and AMHA World shows would get even bigger?
I can’t say for sure about that, but I’ll bet that if qualifying wasn’t required for Nationals the local shows would get smaller. Some people haul 9+ hours to a show because they have to in order to qualify. If they could they would likely just not bother with that drive, and just go to Nationals to show. Some people that have local shows would likely not bring as many horses to those shows if they didn’t need to in order to get all their horses qualified.

I mean, we are governed by the same association as each other.
And that, I think, is a big part of the problem. The straight Mini people feel that because the Minis have the largest numbers in the registry, and bring in the most money, that the Mini people should be able to control the registry. They feel they are supporting the Shetlands, and they don’t want to do that.
In actual fact, the club is the American Shetland Pony Club. AMHR is a part of that, but is not THE club. Read the very first page of the Rule book—Section 1, Article 1—the name of the Corporation shall be THE AMERICAN SHETLAND PONY CLUB. What it amounts to is this Shetland Pony Club is including Miniatures under its umbrella, but it is first and foremost the Shetland Pony Club. No matter how much money AMHR horses bring in, owners are paying for the Shetland Pony Club to keep registration records on their Miniature Horses, but that money doesn’t automatically give AMHR owners control of ASPC.

I was talking with someone several days ago and she had an interesting analogy—and I hope she won’t mind that I repeat it here. If someone goes and spends $1.5 million (or whatever huge amount) at Wal-Mart to buy a bunch of merchandise, that doesn’t give that person part ownership of Wal-Mart—no, that person is simply a customer who spends money in that store. That’s kind of how it is with ASPC—ASPC is the big store, and Miniature Horse owners are the customer that buys things (or rather services) from it. (I hope I worded that all right…nothing worse than taking someone else’s words & getting them all messed up!!!) I’m sure this post isn’t going to win me any Mini friends but that’s okay!

As for the suggestion that ASPC/AMHR horses should be shown ASPC—that’s not so easy for a lot of people. Depending on area, some people don’t even have any ASPC sanctioned shows unless they do drive for hours. If they’ve got AMHR shows right close, and their horses are ASPC/AMHR registered, why on earth shouldn’t they show those horses AMHR? In some cases those ASPC/AMHR have as many generations of AMHR ancestors as do the straight AMHR horses—just because the double registered ones come from stock that retained their ASPC papers, how are they any less AMHR than those horses that might be just as much Shetland, except their ancestors happened to belong to someone who didn’t bother paying to keep up with the ASPC papers???
 
Yes I do have a 37 inch horse that is not showing right now and that is due to certain reasons. And of this horse I was told to not show it in my area and definitely not to beat anyone.

Yes, I was at the NC show and did you know that I was not welcomed. In fact I was escorted off the showgrounds, in fact I was escorted to my vehicle by the judge and told to leave so they could start the show.

And was told it was in the best interest of the show as a spectator. And no I did not break any rules that are set forth by AMHR as to why an exhibitor can be removed, but again I was a spectator. So wonder why I don't attend certain shows, because I would be asked to leave.
Of course I was not there..but one would have to assume as with anything there is 3 sides to every story....

as far as not being enough ASPC shows well it is the chicken and the egg. Many small clubs do not want to put in all those extra classes for a couple of ponies..I would think in a lot of areas if more of those ponies showing minis started showing as ponies and the numbers went up for the ASPC portion of a show it would be easier for show managers to justify fighting to have those classes

I have never seen mini people wanting to control the registry LOL what I do see is a huge fear from a few pony people that somehow this is the agenda however I can honestly say I really see NO TRUTH IN THAT AT ALL
 
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Ruffian, how come you can express your American right of free speech, yet for several other people that attempt that on this forum, they are not given the right.
Just because some people don't agree with your opinion, doesn't mean you are not given the right to express it...not one person has said that.

Why not compete as a Shetland???? Well, these "odd" guy out mini-Shetlands don't seem to fit anywhere. If you show them as Shetlands, they are criticized for being too small for a Modern or too high headed for a Classic etc. If you show them as Minis, because as a height based registry - they are minis, then everyone crys foul, "they're not a 'real' mini"!
So, because their REAL REGISTRY doesn't want them, you simply "turn them into something else", and expect THAT registry to accept them? How fair is THAT, I ask??? Why not go to the SHETLAND REGISTRY which has several divisions already...and very simply ask for another?

I have nice minis that compete very well but I bought one these double registered guys because I love to drive and I love their action. I happen to like AMHR shows. And yes I've been to Shetland and still prefer the AMHR show.SO I want to know just where everyone would like these (god forbid but somehow allowed them to be bred) Small Moderns or Classics to fit?
In a division made for them within their (and this is where my computer died...so now I will finish my post) OWN REGISTRY... good Grief, why on earth should the miniatures change their ways because the pony folks cannot get on with each other??
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That said...I have said a dozen times before. I do not think it a big deal for the moderns to come to the AMHR if fitting the standard, but we NEED to have them in-their-own-division.
 
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