What Does ASPC Need to Do to Survive

[LaVern]

Let's be nice -- but what are some things that AMHA ASPC needs or should do to increase participation at shows? The classes I've watched at Worlds Congress are tiny compared to Nationals.

Some things I've thought of would be moving the World Congress show - perhaps rotate it again like they used to? Find a way to have/support/promote local shows? Change the judging system?

I've been a member of AMHA ASPC pretty much since they started(miniatures), and would hate to see them disappear.

 

[disneyhorse]

Not all breeds can be the largest. I'm sure Fjord fanatics would like their breed to be as popular as the Arabian, but you can't always rehash over and over.

Comparing AMHA to AMHR is closer to comparing apples to apples. Comparing ASPC to AMHR is maybe comparing navel oranges to tangerines.

 

[Lewella]

LOL! Actually this one is kind of amusing because ASPC's registration numbers have remained virutally the same for 30 years and the number of ponies that enter the show ring any given year is statistically high for the size of the breed's population.

To illustrate this:

On average the ASPC registers 1100 new ponies per year. Last year the number of new registrations was 1094. The online show results show that just shy of 700 ASPC registered Shetlands set foot in the show ring so far this show season (I was interruped by a teenager when counting - the number might actually be a touch over 700).

Think about that for a second...1094 new registrations, nearly 700 ponies in the show ring... That's over 60% of new registrations stepping into the show ring - that number is phenomenal!

Though the ASPC isn't a huge breed and is unlikely to ever be a huge breed it is an EXTREMELY active breed!

 

[JMS Miniatures]

You have to get people interested in the breed first. The number of ponies being bred can't even come close to the number of miniatures. Financially its easier to upkeep a miniature vs a shetland especially if that shetland shows and you put shoes on, show carts, etc... I really think you have to try and promote the shetland as a family horse. Get the attention of the youth when it comes to riding classes. But in a way the miniatures stole the show as a family horse.

They do move the Congress show, which IMO is whats hurting it. Its poor planning when it comes to picking locations and dates. I bet they won't even know the location of Congress for next year by Convention. Thats only 8-9 months away. And with Congress being a whole week to take off of work people can't plan cause we won't even know if its in July or August. If they do rotate it which I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but they need to plan 2 or 3 years ahead and know the exact date and location.

Also the club needs to be financially responsible and pick locations that are best for the club. The people had spoken last year and they wanted it at Tulsa. Tulsa is a fantastic facility and thats where the AMHR Nationals is held. But Congress does not bring in the numbers that Nationals brings. Nationals brings in 1500 miniatures, Congress just a lil over 500. From what I've heard the Congress show lost about $30,000. That's too big of a loss. Des Moines was about a $3-$4,000 loss. People complained about the dates well I rather the organization not loose that much money. People complain that you shouldn't charge as much for stalls for Congress as you would for Nationals. Well we fill up the barns for Nationals so we can afford to do so. People have said why should AMHR support ASPC's side, well its been said we are 1 club, we support each other well then let all members have some input as to where the Congress show will be, not just those who have shown at it for just a few years.

I think you must expect that only around 500 ponies will show up for Congress. ASPC will not get as big as AMHR without new people interested in the breed itself. I honestly think for ASPC to grow also is to try and get the dual ponies to show in ASPC. Which this proposal for allowing them to cross enter may be best for ASPC. I know those who are only AMHR have negative feelings about this proposal but you got to look at the club as a whole and whats best for the club, and I think this isn't a bad thing, and this is putting my personal feelings aside.

 

[Minimor]

Andrea is right. Since AMHR is under the ASPC umbrella, I would say that ASPC needs to just keep on as they have been--the ASPC powers-that-be were very smart when they created AMHR all those years ago, and I hope that the present BOD and future BODs will continue to have the same business 'smarts' that those previous BOD members had years back.

As far as numbers--ASPC registrations have been constant now for what--20 years or so? I think that is a very positive thing. If they have been constant for 20 years hopefully they will stay constant for another 20 years, and then some.

Perhaps the concern should be with AMHR. Registration numbers have dropped to almost half of what they were just a few years ago. That's not a bad thing--because we have all seen that the market has been rather over supplied for a few years now. Minis are no longer the novelty that they were at the beginning and prices (and demand) have dropped. There was a time when there was a good market for breeding animals--now, it seems that fewer people want breeding animals, which isn't a bad thing--I have always believed that Minis need to be in demand for more than just breeding. Still--what happens if AMHR registrations drop another 50% in the next 5 years? Are we seeing the early part of a trend here? Nationals entries are still right up there--and maybe they will stay up there...but when I look at the current AMHR show list and think back to 15 years (somewhere in there) and realize that there were some very well attended local shows at that time (Fargo? Valley City? to name two that were near to my location) --shows that are now dead and gone (I am told because entries dropped off & show management was losing money on them?)...I have to wonder just which direction the AMHR shows overall are really going. Granted--there is again a show in Fargo--this time it includes the ponies--but it is so far small compared to what used to be. So--I think we need to keep an eye on AMHR, not just worry about ASPC.

I would like to see ASPC/AMHR horses promoted outside of the breed ring. There seems to be more interest all the time in CDE (as one example). We have HOF awards for breed show wins, but what is there for people who are competing and winning outside of the breed ring? Is there any recognition for them? I think some sort of HOF for open competition would be a plus--wins for recognized combined driving competitions--something along that line.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Lets see...

Perhaps people have left AMHR because of the dual shetlands. Many feel that the AMHR miniature isn't as popular as it was 10 years ago. How many people have dispersal sales because they feel like they can no longer compete in the market because of the AMHR/ASPC shetland, and how many people sold all of their AMHA/AMHR or AMHR miniatures to get into the AMHR/ASPC shetlands. How many people have left the shows because of what is popular and the miniature can no longer compete against the shetlands.

I've stopped breeding, I'm still unsure with todays market. The miniature market was over flooded and with the bad economy it made things worse. It's getting better but its still hard for the AMHR miniature breeder. Yes quality sells, but how much more of an incentive is to own a AMHR/ASPC shetland? Double the papers, possibly double the futurity pay outs, double the national shows, and if this cross entering rule passes then double the shows and awards.

What AMHR needs to find a way is to keep the AMHR members from not leaving and try and continue to show.

 

[LaVern]

Just being silly again. I think ASPC or AMHA will survive just fine. They may not have the large numbers or huge shows all the time, but you don't need that to survive. They also have enough passionate devoted members that would step up to the plate and do it for nothing if they had too. I have heard that in the tough times that is what some Shetland People had to do.

The AMHR I don't know. If we keep dropping in numbers, I don't know if we will be of enough fiancial benefit for ASPC to keep us around. And I don't know if there are enough people that are passionate enough about the Straight AMHR registered horse to carry it on. I think Holly is right, those of us that care, should worry about the future of the AMHR.

 

[muffntuf]

Think about that for a second...1094 new registrations, nearly 700 ponies in the show ring... That's over 60% of new registrations stepping into the show ring - that number is phenomenal!

Okay but this is a little problem here - 700 ponies step into the show ring possibly this year - that 's not new registrations, its a mix or registrations.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Honestly the only way for AMHR/ASPC to survive is to gain and keep its members. Without its members it will not survive and it won't matter if you support ASPC or AMHR.

Also as far as fewer registrations goes I'm not too concerned about that. Like it was said its not necessarily a bad thing. The market was over flooded, mostly average to below average miniatures. For sure from 10 years ago the quality has improved dramatically. Perhaps breeders are paying more attention to who they are breeding.

Numbers at shows I really have not seen that much of a decrease. At least not in my area, but that doesn't mean that could change in a heart beat. The numbers at Nationals have been strong and Nationals continues to make a profit. I think though the numbers for the Under horses are going down and the number of Over horses are going up. I honestly would not be surprised to see more Over horses then Unders at Nationals sometime in the future due to the dual shetlands.

What does AMHR need to do to survive, get new members, keep old members, figure out a way to keep the AMHR miniature strong and promotion and the incentive to continue to show, again mostly for the AMHR miniature.

What does ASPC need to do to survive, get new members, promotion of the breed, especially to families, and take advantage of the dual shetlands, and start thinking smart concerning the Congress show.

Again this cross entering rule will do nothing but help ASPC but can hurt the AMHR miniature horse breeder and with what has been said in this post perhaps people should rethink of this rule if AMHR is heading down a dark path.

 

[Lewella]

Trace you are completely missing the point. Even if you look strictly at Congress and Nationals - 1094 registrations, a little under 500 animals when you discount the ASPR only's - around 45% of annual registration numbers are showing at Congress. The same comparison for AMHR would be somewhere around 26% of annual registration numbers showing at Nationals. The point is regardless of the year they were registered a very, very high precentage of the Shetland population has set foot in the show ring at some point in their lifetime. AQHA issued 91,074 new registrations in 2011 - the All American Quarter Horse Congress attracts about 8,500 horses - that's a little under 9.5% of annual registration numbers showing at AQHA's big show.

The decline in AMHR registrations (down 45% from 10 years ago) is alarming from a registry standpoint. The ever growing number of member benefits the ASPC/AMHR has been able to offer in the last two decades, the building we own, all were paid for by the income the AMHR was bringing in. We are at a point where we need to accept that the AMHR market has undergone a serious, likely overdue, correction. (Thank God that correction wasn't as dramatic as the correction the Shetland market underwent in the late 1960's. Had the AMHR market correction been as dramatic as the Shetland market correction was in the late 1960's we would likely be back operating out of someone's basement again.) The AMHR market correction has led to a significant drop in income for the registry though which means we are going to have to make some major adjustments on how we are spending and what we are spending on and how we think about our registry funded programs.

 

[muffntuf]

I didn't miss the point at all. I understand you are saying it is steady for entries in the show ring for ASPC. What I didn't want someone walking away with was out 1094 registered every year - 700 new registrations are in the ring- for that year. That was a little lopsided.

So yeah the ASPC stays pretty steady in registrations and pretty steady in numbers in the ring.

As far as registrations go for AMHR - yeah we are down, and the registry should be concerned. But did we determine from the study of letters that were sent out by the registry to members who didn't renew - whether it was attrition being the reason we have lost so many?

 

[Minimor]

Perhaps people have left AMHR because of the dual shetlands. Many feel that the AMHR miniature isn't as popular as it was 10 years ago. How many people have dispersal sales because they feel like they can no longer compete in the market because of the AMHR/ASPC shetland, and how many people sold all of their AMHA/AMHR or AMHR miniatures to get into the AMHR/ASPC shetlands. How many people have left the shows because of what is popular and the miniature can no longer compete against the shetlands.

I suspect there are many reasons why people leave AMHR. I don’t know what percentage have left due to any one thing….I do know that the shows I referred to in my earlier post were pretty much finished a about the time I started in Minis, 10 years ago—they went maybe a year or two after that & then were gone. I don’t think their loss of entries had anything to do with Shetlands—because at that time the Shetlands were just starting to get popular & I doubt there were many, if any, at those particular shows.

Some people quit because of age; they retire, or just decide to pursue other interests. Some just get tired of hauling around to the shows, they’ve done it for years & decide it’s time to quit, maybe the kids have grown up & they’re less keen to haul and show when the kids aren’t involved. Some get discouraged or just plain mad because they didn’t win like they expected to (it doesn’t matter who beats them )…there are those who pay big bucks for a horse & haul it off to a show expecting to win because they paid so much money for the horse. They forget to consider proper feeding and/or proper conditioning, sometimes they know nothing about proper presentation in the ring and then the judge doesn’t pin them & they are angry and vow to never show again—and then they don’t ever show again. I’ve known some like that.

The decline in AMHR registrations (down 45% from 10 years ago) is alarming from a registry standpoint. The ever growing number of member benefits the ASPC/AMHR has been able to offer in the last two decades, the building we own, all were paid for by the income the AMHR was bringing in. We are at a point where we need to accept that the AMHR market has undergone a serious, likely overdue, correction. (Thank God that correction wasn't as dramatic as the correction the Shetland market underwent in the late 1960's. Had the AMHR market correction been as dramatic as the Shetland market correction was in the late 1960's we would likely be back operating out of someone's basement again.) The AMHR market correction has led to a significant drop in income for the registry though which means we are going to have to make some major adjustments on how we are spending and what we are spending on and how we think about our registry funded programs

I meant to add something to that effect earlier, then got sidetracked & forgot. While the lower registration numbers might be a good thing for breeders and the market in general, they are a very bad thing for the registry. Really it’s a bad thing for the members too; with less money coming into the registry, I would guess that the registry is going to have to give less back—it’s reasonable to assume we will be likely to see some budget cuts; committees might get less money to work with than they have had in previous years.

 

[dreaminmini]

I just got my membership renewal form in the mail yesterday. I did notice that Youth memberships are now $5 though I don't remember hearing about this change. So there is a fair amount of new money coming in.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

It still says free for youth membership.

As far as cutting costs goes perhaps the registry should look into the decrease of members before they do anything drastic. I know someone on here knows the numbers of members that AMHR/ASPC has each year and I know that number has continued to drop. And I think that its unfair to have the one club be depended on AMHR to bring in the money when ASPC should be able to hold its own weight especially when you have a $30,000 loss at the Congress show. Perhaps cut backs need to be taken from that. If they feel they should cut back from AMHR Nationals that would be very unfair when we have heard that Nationals actually does make a profit and I'm sure it did again this year as numbers and class entries were still strong.

 

[Lewella]

Membership did not drop this year - it actually gained very slightly over last year from what I'm seeing on the August finacial report. The $20 credit first half the year as well as the hardship sale stimulated renewals and new memberships.

That's a misprint on the renewal form - youth memberships are still free. Youth renewal notices haven't been mailed out yet.

 

[Davie]

One of the biggest helps would be to PUT CONGRESS IN ONE LOCATION AND LEAVE IT ALONE. I don't care if the date changes to Oct or stays in August. Facilities will alway look at Congress as a "fly by night show" if our organization is only willing to commit to a one year contract. There are too many big shows out there that commit to multi year contracts and the facilities are then guaranteed of income and the community is willing to get behind them with sponsorships but not if it is just for one year at a time.

Congress will never grow to the size it can be if you never know year to year where it is going to be and when. I have to plan my time off early in January for the year and it is hard to decide what shows to attend when you cant firmly say OK I'm off during this time--like with AMHR I always know it will begin the first Thursday after Labor Day--end of story.

You want Congress to grow, put it in one location with great facilities that will allow the show to expand, on a specific date each year, that has lots of ammenities such as good hotels, places to eat, easy access to highways and somewhat centrally located.

You want your Congress to be "your Nationals" then make some hard decision, stick to them -- yes you may loose $$$ in the first few years but you will reap the bigger rewards as your numbers grow.

Personally if I was on a Facility Board and saw a bid from ASPC that was only for one year I would not even take the time answer--the Board is more concerned with long term financing of the facility and give priority to long term committments. That is why you see the big show like Pinto Nations, Reining Futurity, QH Worlds, Morgan Nationals etc not moving from the facilities they have--long term committments with facilities that are great, they receive incentives to stay in the local area by the community. Facilities are willing to update their properties when they know that have income to support it.

Look at Tulsa--the community elected to have a sales tax that allowed Tulsa to update and enlarge their facility to make it a "Top Notch" facility for big shows to come to Tulsa--It has paid off big for Tulsa as a whole. Oklahoma City Fair Board did the same thing--community effort and backing along with long term contacts has allowed OKC fairground to be one of the premier show facilities in the central US. Lets admit it on top of it all--dates are exceptionally hard to come by and with the economic forcast the way it is, contracts for facilities are not going to get any better.

Now I'll get off my soapbox and put one my flamesuit.

 

[Minimor]

I typed this once on my phone & it disappeared & wouldn't come back, so now I will try again.

Davie--WHERE is the growth for Congress going to come from? A statistically HUGE percentage of Shetlands are already showing at Congress - where are these other ponies going to come from????? No one can seem to answer that question. We keep hearing the line "for Congress to grow" over and over and over without any indication of HOW Congress can have any kind of major growth in a breed where the annual registration numbers put it on the cusp of rare breed status. It's never going to be Nationals - more horses show at Nationals than ASPC even registers in a year!

So--I do agree that Congress should be in a "permanent" location, rather than moving around to a different place every year. However--that permanent location should be one that is not a huge financial burder on the registry. At this time, when 500+ horses seems to be the best number that we can expect, there is no justification for holding the show in a facility that will cause us to lose $30,000 (even if that number is $20,000 it is too much IMO) when it is entirely possible to hold the show in a facility that will see us lose less than $4,000 with that same number of horses.

If there is any truth in the statement that Congress can grow if it is in a specific location with specific dates year after year then that will surely be true wherever that location is. In these tough economic times it isn't financially responsible to choose to lose a 5 figure amount...not when the same show can be held elsewhere with a loss in the low 4 figure range. Sponsorships? There are probably sponsorships available in any of a number of cities IF someone goes looking for them. We heard last year that there would be the possibility of a $10,000 sponsorship in Tulsa. That didn't materialize--we really haven't been told why not. It is easy to SAY we might be able to get sponsorships, but talk is worth nothing if no one actually goes out & does the leg work. I'd have more confidence in the idea if someone stepped forward and said "XYZ Company has agreed to give us $10,000 if Congress comes to THIS TOWN". That would be something. Saying "there is the possibilty of a sponsorship" is nothing more than talk.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Agree completely you got to expect 500 entries for Congress and if you get more then that great but I don't think you will get near the number of entries for Nationals. I also agree that the association cannot afford a $30,000 loss. I know people want a National type show for Congress and I think it deserves the same respect but you have to be realistic. No doubt Tulsa is a nice facility but its too big and expensive for Congress.

As far as having a multi year contract I believe that the association did pay a 3-year contract with Des Moines to save the dates.

And thats great to hear that membership numbers have gone up this year. They have also changed it back to where you must be a member to do any paperwork for 2012. I also agree that the drop of registrations can hurt but it also hurts to see minis in kill pens and auctions. Horse breeding in general is over populated and get to the point of comparing horse breeding to dogs/cats. Thats why I say get new members, new members means new potential buyers, and new homes for these minis.