Second wreck :(

[Knottymare]

Back in the beginning of the month, at the PNW beach drive, my mare had a bucking fit about 45 minutes into our drive, resulting in my cart being flipped. I was able to ground drive her back to the trailer thanks to others who took my cart and dog.. Up till that weekend, she had been safe everywhere. She'd been driven around fireworks, over bubble wrap, through all kinds of trails, up and down hills, in traffic, around bikes, machines, etc... and when we were frollicking down the beach, busted out in a bucking fit that wound up flipping my cart and ending my driving for the weekend. I did ground drive her, both back from the beach to the trailer and then all over the place at the campgrounds and she was fine, even next to the stallions that we thought might have been the reason she was bucking.

After a month of desensitizing and relaxation, I hitched her up yesterday and ground drove her for quite a while before putting her to the cart. Everything was smooth sailing. She was excited about getting out but not nervous or uptight at all. Got out on the road after a few spins around the house and all was going well until I reached forward to touch her breeching to see if it was too tight and off she went, into another extreme bucking fit. This time, she rolled us into a ditch, got her leg over one of the shafts, and was suspended with her front feet on the ground and the cart wheels on the ground with her back legs straddling the shaft suspended in the air. As I worked to free her, she managed to flip the cart and ran over me and dragged the cart over me. She ran into some bushes and fortunately got stuck there where I could free her and ground drive her home, going back to collect my yard sale later. All this happened with an improvised bucking strap in place, adjusted exactly how I have seen illustrated, with enough slack for her to move, but tight enough to supposedly keep her from getting her legs up too high. I'm waiting for my bucking strap to arrive from Iowa Valley Carriage... Both times, by the time I was able to unhitch her, she was terrified out of her mind, flinching at the slightest touch and ready to take off like a rocket. When I got her home, we worked on desensitation till we were both exhausted. I wanted her to stop and wait for me to get her free. Period.

Talked to a very experienced driver/trainer this morning and the news isn't good. It was suggested that after two wrecks it is not very likely that this mare will ever be safe to drive. I'm not sure I'll ever feel safe driving her. I'm not afraid... I don't scare easily, but I just came out of almost 2 years of being laid up and I'm not willing to risk my health over a horse that has a bug up her butt!

This horse is a rescue, by the way, one who was found wandering loose in Port Orchard some 5 or 6 years ago and was given to me with no history.

Lovely, eh?

 

[fourluckyhorseshoes]

I'm so sorry. I'm sure it was absolutely terrifying. Wishing you the best of luck on whatever you decide.

 

[susanne]

.

I'm so sorry to hear this, Mary.

While some might be willing to take the risks involved in retraining her to drive, considering your previous injuries, I would agree with the trainer. You really cannot get injured again -- your babies need you healthy!

Dolly is such a sweetheart...do you enjoy trick training? Liberty (so she could show off that beautiful trot...)? How about training her in halter-free obstacle?

 

[Knottymare]

Thanks. I wasn't afraid. More disappointed than anything. This mare was loving driving so there are holes I left in her training somewhere or she comes with some baggage that I am unaware of. Sadly, I don't know if she'll be able to get past this. She has beautiful movement and can really cover the ground. She's a BLAST to drive when she's sane. I'm sure it's a combination of me not seeing the signs and her having something going on in her head that I am not aware of. I found out recently that she was found wandering Port Orchard and taken in by a nice person. That person located her owner who wanted nothing to do with her so she kept her. Dolly foaled shortly after that (they were surprised because she was thin and didn't look pregnant and the foal was huge. The gal who had her and the foal died from cancer and one of her friends took Dolly and the colt but Dolly was too aggressive with her herd of full size horses so she gave her to my friend who leant her to me to be a companion to my older riding horse.

Dolly quickly won my heart and I spent over a year working on the ground with her and getting to know her, then was off for almost 2 years due to health stuff. She was back in the groove as soon as I could get going and has been doing pretty well since then.

If she's registered, I don't know about it. I'd love to breed her because she is a lovely silver buckskin and her movement if really nice. She has a really pretty ground covering high kneed trot that just blows my mind... but unregistered horses? I don't know how I feel about that. So many already need homes. I'd only breed for myself and I have 2 other minis.

I just hate for her to become a pasture pet when she loves to work so much.

 

[Knottymare]

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I'm so sorry to hear this, Mary.

While some might be willing to take the risks involved in retraining her to drive, considering your previous injuries, I would agree with the trainer. You really cannot get injured again -- your babies need you healthy!

Dolly is such a sweetheart...do you enjoy trick training? Liberty (so she could show off that beautiful trot...)? How about training her in halter-free obstacle?

Susanne, that is a GREAT idea. I have been teaching her some tricks and she loves to do it. That is a fantastic idea. Thanks. It's hard. I am really down about this. I love her so much. But I don't want to get broken anymore!

(((hugs)))

 

[susanne]

Have you ever seen Cavalia, either in person or on video? (You can rent their dvd or watch a lot of it on YouTube) I love their liberty work, as the love and respect between horse and handler are so evident. Having watched you work with Dolly, I think the two of you could do some amazing things and have great fun. I hope Amy Lacy (ClickMini) sees this, as she took a master class with a former Cavalia liberty trainer/handler.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

What a nightmare. Everyone's worst driving fear. Glad to hear you both came out able to stand right side up.

 

[Knottymare]

Have you ever seen Cavalia, either in person or on video? (You can rent their dvd or watch a lot of it on YouTube) I love their liberty work, as the love and respect between horse and handler are so evident. Having watched you work with Dolly, I think the two of you could do some amazing things and have great fun. I hope Amy Lacy (ClickMini) sees this, as she took a master class with a former Cavalia liberty trainer/handler.

I did go to Cavalia and was very impressed. And I know Amy through Kim so I will be sure to ask about this and getting together with her. Great idea!

Thanks.

I am really going to miss our nice little quiet rides down the country lanes, though. Now I really need to get Rio's harness her and get her driving!

 

[Knottymare]

What a nightmare. Everyone's worst driving fear. Glad to hear you both came out able to stand right side up.

Thanks. I guess I'm just lucky, right?

Sadly, it's probably more the Green plus Green = Black and Blue situation here... however, I'm not THAT green Jeez! I've been around horses my whole life and have trained for years. Driving is new to me, though. Don't have as far to fall, that's a plus!

 

[dreamlandnh]

A very good friend of mine had two accident driving with a horse. After many people giving their thoughts and a few saying to not let the horse continue driving he was sent off for some driving with a trainer and then they went down and had some lessons and the horse his driving again. Yes, there are many steps that are done before the driver gets into the cart but this horse has now shown at some 4H shows driving with just a few in his class and he has gone to Nationals and went in a large class (though he didn't pin, he did get around the ring so that is a WIN in my eyes). The first time the boy drove his horse this year I was with him from start to finish and I cried when he came out of the ring with a blue ribbon along with his mom. I'm not saying don't give up driving with this horse but to really look at the whole picture and maybe if you can bring the horse to a trainer for them to work with first. Good luck and glad you are ok.

 

[ksoomekh]

I'm so sorry you are going through this difficult time. I'm certain you will make the best decision that will be in both your best interests.

Karen

 

[Knottymare]

A very good friend of mine had two accident driving with a horse. After many people giving their thoughts and a few saying to not let the horse continue driving he was sent off for some driving with a trainer and then they went down and had some lessons and the horse his driving again. Yes, there are many steps that are done before the driver gets into the cart but this horse has now shown at some 4H shows driving with just a few in his class and he has gone to Nationals and went in a large class (though he didn't pin, he did get around the ring so that is a WIN in my eyes). The first time the boy drove his horse this year I was with him from start to finish and I cried when he came out of the ring with a blue ribbon along with his mom. I'm not saying don't give up driving with this horse but to really look at the whole picture and maybe if you can bring the horse to a trainer for them to work with first. Good luck and glad you are ok.

I'd be happy to send her out for training... but the trainer that I really admire is the one who said it's not a very good bet she'll pull out of this. The accidents were pretty extreme. I'm really glad for your friend that he is ok. Sounds like he is a kid? That could be incredibly scary!

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Oh, Mary...I'm so sorry to hear this! I know she was really overreactive about her hindquarters after the first accident and ESPECIALLY now that touching her breeching has once again set her off, I'm going to strongly reiterate my feeling that you need to get Dolly to a vet and have her checked for ovarian cysts or other reproductive abnormalities. It's my understanding that such things in mares can cause spectacular sensitivity and over-reactions in some cases and I would want to rule out any physical cause before assuming she's not drivable.

If the reason for her blowups is physical and not mental you can probably get her back to work; the hard part is erasing the fear the accidents themselves may have instilled and convincing her that whatever pain she felt won't come up again. Where you generally aren't going to have much luck with restarting a horse is when the reason for their accidents is mental. Most will not come out of that to be a safe driving horse after several severe accidents from a fear-based or personal-issue-based cause.

Dolly has been thoroughly desensitized and well-handled and your equipment is pretty good. I'm really suspicious of a physical cause of some kind, be it hormone-related or nerve pain or something. It's worth checking out! Meanwhile, do the trick and liberty work and bond with her. It never hurts to have that tight bond when you're asking them to do something that makes them shake like hold still while you cut them out of tangled harness.

You might also try talking to a reputable animal communicator and see if you can find out what's going on in her head. Sometimes it can really help if you have the right person!

Leia

 

[susanne]

Excellent point, Leia. In addition to possible escalation of health issues, unaddressed internal pain could cause problems in any activity and be dangerous to you and others. Who knows, this could even be what made the previous owner not want her back...pain may have made her unmanageable in less-experienced hands.

 

[BigDogs & LittleHorses]

Oh, shoot, that's a real bummer.

Was hoping it was just hormones and stallions around last time. Glad you two are okay though.

I've also got one that just didn't work out, for what ever reason. She would also have random bucking fits, good days and bad days according to the trainer. Maybe she could be worked through it if I had the time, an arena, a heavier cart kicking straps, and ??? but that's just not in the cards, and I'd never trust her. That's the key.

I ride dirt bikes and three-wheelers. Three-wheelers were banned years ago because advocacy groups decided they were dangerous. They WERE dangerous to new riders. You have to ride them quite a bit differently than anything else, on their terms. Once you know how they react, they're actually quite predictable and versatile. I suppose many dirt bike or ATV riders would consider driving a small horse a sissy thing. I don't... driving a vehicle with a mind and will independent of yours? No brakes? It's nuts. It probably would be banned if it didn't have such a long history.

Of course, It's also magical when everything goes right.

It's sad when you've got your hopes up and have put up all of the time (or money). Have you considered buying a pre-trained, proven driving horse? I think that's what I'm going to go with when Dancer "retires".

 

[Knottymare]

Oh, Mary...I'm so sorry to hear this! I know she was really overreactive about her hindquarters after the first accident and ESPECIALLY now that touching her breeching has once again set her off, I'm going to strongly reiterate my feeling that you need to get Dolly to a vet and have her checked for ovarian cysts or other reproductive abnormalities. It's my understanding that such things in mares can cause spectacular sensitivity and over-reactions in some cases and I would want to rule out any physical cause before assuming she's not drivable.

If the reason for her blowups is physical and not mental you can probably get her back to work; the hard part is erasing the fear the accidents themselves may have instilled and convincing her that whatever pain she felt won't come up again. Where you generally aren't going to have much luck with restarting a horse is when the reason for their accidents is mental. Most will not come out of that to be a safe driving horse after several severe accidents from a fear-based or personal-issue-based cause.

Dolly has been thoroughly desensitized and well-handled and your equipment is pretty good. I'm really suspicious of a physical cause of some kind, be it hormone-related or nerve pain or something. It's worth checking out! Meanwhile, do the trick and liberty work and bond with her. It never hurts to have that tight bond when you're asking them to do something that makes them shake like hold still while you cut them out of tangled harness.

You might also try talking to a reputable animal communicator and see if you can find out what's going on in her head. Sometimes it can really help if you have the right person!

Leia

All EXCELLENT ideas. Thanks, Leia. It's hard to see clearly when something this emotional happens.

This evening, she came running to meet me at the gate and came right over and put her head in her halter. I was so happy for that small victory. I didn't expect it. I brought her out, handled her all over her body, hung on her some, played a little at liberty (she's getting pretty good at totting along with me and stopping when I say "whoa" and she's good at giving handshakes and smiling so we did all those things, then I released her into the field, got Rio, did some little activities with her (she has space issues so we are working on her respecting my space), then got Teddy and we worked on leading, stopping, standing handsome, being tied and groomed. The whole time, Dolly was respectfully watching.

This says to me that the work I did with her after the wreck was good and accomplished what I was hoping which was to firmly get back to the issue of sensitivity and getting her to trust me to get her out of the pickle. We ended on a positive note and today, she was really good...

I talked for a quite a while with Dorothy Whiteman and we have a plan to get Rio going as soon as her harness arrives. Meanwhile, I'm excited about taking Dolly in a direction that will help build her confidence both in herself and me. Then we'll see what we'll do.

I REALLY appreciate being able to come here and share my experiences and hope that by telling my story, someone else will learn from them.

She is an excellent babysitter, that is for sure!

 

[Knottymare]

Oh, shoot, that's a real bummer.

Was hoping it was just hormones and stallions around last time. Glad you two are okay though.

It's sad when you've got your hopes up and have put up all of the time (or money). Have you considered buying a pre-trained, proven driving horse? I think that's what I'm going to go with when Dancer "retires".

Well, I'll have her vetted but meanwhile, we will enjoy other things together. I adore her.

And HA! Dancer retire? Never!

 

[wildoak]

I'm sorry, and I surely sympathize. I had a similar thing happen with a mare a few years ago, we had been driving and showing, she was spectacular and so much fun to drive! Something spooked her at a show in a late night warm up and she had a bucking spell. All was ok after that, until Nationals that year where she had a full blown panic attack and tore up my cart. She is so sweet out of harness and loves attention, but I regretfully stopped driving her... no wish to get either of us hurt.

Jan

 

[Knottymare]

I'm sorry, and I surely sympathize. I had a similar thing happen with a mare a few years ago, we had been driving and showing, she was spectacular and so much fun to drive! Something spooked her at a show in a late night warm up and she had a bucking spell. All was ok after that, until Nationals that year where she had a full blown panic attack and tore up my cart. She is so sweet out of harness and loves attention, but I regretfully stopped driving her... no wish to get either of us hurt.

Jan

So glad you were not hurt and that your mare is ok. It is so scary when you lose control. I was so fortunate that after she ran over me, she ran into a bush and got stuck. I cannot imagine the damage and terror that could have happened had she been able to continue to run. We have a lot of other ways to spend our time together and I will have her vet checked just to be sure.

It's good to share our experiences.

 

[SilverRose Farms]

Coming back from wrecks is scary and can take a long time. But it can be done. You have to be aware. And definitely as Leia said rule out ANYTHING Physical.. Internally or externally.

Even horses with major abuse in their past can still be taught to drive and trust. YOU as a driver just have to be aware and know how and when to drive and the changes in them prior.

I have one mare who learned that she didnt have to drive is she threw herself on the ground. She would just trot along and drop. I had the vet and chiropractor and everyone all over that mare she looked and Im sure FELT like a science project. However once I established that there was no reason for the dropping I started watching for it making note of what happened before during and after.

Now this mare wouldnt flail around or anything once she was on the ground she would just lay there. The look of shock on her face when I got out and just waited was hilarious. (I was rather embarrassed as we ended up with an audience at the barn where we were boarded) However I just waited her out. She laid there for 10 minutes then grunted at me and stood up shook the dirt off herself and waited. I got back in asked her to walk she did stomping her feet the whole time. 5 more minutes went by (our audience left thankfully) I asked for transitions up and down changed directions collected extended I was just about getting ready to call it quits cause I wanted to end on a good note when AGAIN she threw herself to the ground... again we got an audience who proceeded to criticize everything. I ignored them didnt let them acknowledge my mare in anyway. And again I waited this time she laid there for 20 minutes before getting up... again same thing ignored it went walk trot transitions and everything I did actually manage to call it quits before she pulled it a third time that night. This happened for a solid week. Then every 2 weeks she would do it once in a while... now 4 years later she hasnt done it since. I do know she does it and keep that in mind every time I drive her. But she is now proving to be a very very reliable and stunning driving horse.