Papers, what would you do?

[rabbitsfizz]

No, I would not supply the papers unless I had seen the horse and was happy to have her bred, and bred with my farm name on her, at that.

These people have bought an unregistered animal, and now want, for that price, a registered one- maybe the people selling said it could be registered? I do not know but they got the idea form somewhere, didn't they?

So, no, not without their paying full price, sorry.

Having said that I would not sell a foal without it's papers in the first place.

I also would not charge extra if an open mare came up in foal- after all it cuts both ways, supposing the people that bought the mare did not want her in foal?

OK if they sue??

 

[MajorClementine]

<br>My answer to that is no.  You sold the foal with no papers,  that means that she should not be bred.<br><br>I sell all of my dogs with limited registration (meaning they can not be bred or shown) I I would never agree to give full registration to a second party.  They buy the dog the way it was originally sold.<br><br>The same should go for horses.  We have too many Miniatures out there that no one wants, why should we encourage others to breed horses that were sold unregistered.<br>

<br><br>I fully agree with this statement. The people who now own the horse bought it knowing it had no papers. If they wanted a papered mare to breed they would have had to pay more and rightfully so. <br><br>It's like buying a used car, you pay less but you get what you get. (Not that your beautiful horses are used cars ) You don't go back and ask the dealership to extend the warranty to you because you are the New owner of an Old car.
<div><br></div><div>On another note I would not sell a foal without it's papers. It just eliminates the headache of these situations and if you have a rule that you won't do it you can let people know up front that it's not the way you do business. We all like to help out other people but a lot of times it gets us in trouble. I'm sure you thought the first owner would be this foals "forever home" but it didn't last 3 years. We always want to give people the benefit of the doubt but so many times it bites us in the butt.</div><div><br></div><div>That being said I hope you don't take this as a personal attack. I have been stung by too many people when it comes to my animals and I've just found that I need to stick to my guns and not change the rules to help someone out.</div>

 

[Ashley]

Yes, provided the horse was breed/show material. My understanding is you sold her for less with out papers not because she was of less quality but for a pet home. They would be responsible for all fees, including if you needed any horse DNA.

 

[Relic]

OMG l love the used car warranty l'll have to remember that one...

any sold from here without paperwork has a fairly good reason for them being offered as a grade. Pets can go with papers if it's nothing major and they have papers anyway or are easy to get if listed on the stud report anyways so whats the problem..but if a person comes and they just want the horse cheaper and no papers l wouldn't do it a horse lives a long time and forever to another person isn't usually that long..

 

[Allure Ranch]

First off I don't personally sell any horse without registration paper work. Nor, would I enable the buyer/new owner of said horse from registering it. However, that would be provided that the horse was sound and the particular horse in question is NOT a dwarf. Therefore, I personally don't see the problem myself with providing the new owner with the registration/transfer paper work so that they can register it regardless of its age or the fact that the horse has now changed hands.

 

My only concern would be the continued well-being/care of the horse period..... I don't personally see this as an issue of anything other than that. Especially, since that was your main objective when you originally sold the horse.

 

As I recall you were originally selling the horse with papers. But because of the buyers financial circumstances you reduced her price as it was more important that she had a good home. At this point by your questioning/polling what anyone else would do it sounds like your possibly struggling with the fact that you've possibly lost money on the horse. Or better yet I should say maybe (I) assume.

 

My thought's are clear as I mentioned; (I) never take anything less for a horse that what (I) can personally live with, (I) never deny papers and foremost I'm always concerned about the horses LONG -TERM well-being. I just think that personally you need to find a way to come terms with this and do the nice thing an provide them with the paperwork so it can be registered in your farm name....

 

Just (my) opinion.... and I don't mean to offend anyone.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I am not sure that is quite fair, Allure. If I had sold a horse under these circumstances (as I and a number of others have already said, we would not do so, but if we had) I should be upset for a number of reasons.

The person buying the horse were, supposedly, not able to pay full dollar because they wanted a pet.....well, I don't know about you, but I keep my pets (my horses are not pets)

Someone suggested the new purchasers contact the breeder. Someone gave them the idea they could get the papers????

The horse has been sold on at least once- did they contact OS to ask if they wanted the horse back, because that would have been the time, and the place, to have registered her.

The people who have her now have, obviously, bought her to breed. Would they have done this without papers? If the answer is yes, then there is a small argument there for putting the papers on her, but I still would not do it for free.

Otherwise what would have been the point of not just dropping the price and giving them the papers anyway?

I too think that there needs to be a "non breeding" registration, but that would not solve a problem like this as the people would just come back for the full registration and not expect to have to pay for it (I can register my pups as non breeding and then I, as breeder, can lift that embargo, I am assuming the AKC is the same?)

 

[Allure Ranch]

I am not sure that is quite fair, Allure. If I had sold a horse under these circumstances (as I and a number of others have already said, we would not do so, but if we had) I should be upset for a number of reasons.

The person buying the horse were, supposedly, not able to pay full dollar because they wanted a pet.....well, I don't know about you, but I keep my pets (my horses are not pets)

Someone suggested the new purchasers contact the breeder. Someone gave them the idea they could get the papers????

The horse has been sold on at least once- did they contact OS to ask if they wanted the horse back, because that would have been the time, and the place, to have registered her.

The people who have her now have, obviously, bought her to breed. Would they have done this without papers? If the answer is yes, then there is a small argument there for putting the papers on her, but I still would not do it for free.

Otherwise what would have been the point of not just dropping the price and giving them the papers anyway?

I too think that there needs to be a "non breeding" registration, but that would not solve a problem like this as the people would just come back for the full registration and not expect to have to pay for it (I can register my pups as non breeding and then I, as breeder, can lift that embargo, I am assuming the AKC is the same?)

I don't disagree that your entitled to your opinion.... However, obviously mine does differ.

 

[Matt73]

I am not sure that is quite fair, Allure. If I had sold a horse under these circumstances (as I and a number of others have already said, we would not do so, but if we had) I should be upset for a number of reasons.

The person buying the horse were, supposedly, not able to pay full dollar because they wanted a pet.....well, I don't know about you, but I keep my pets (my horses are not pets)

Someone suggested the new purchasers contact the breeder. Someone gave them the idea they could get the papers????

The horse has been sold on at least once- did they contact OS to ask if they wanted the horse back, because that would have been the time, and the place, to have registered her.

The people who have her now have, obviously, bought her to breed. Would they have done this without papers? If the answer is yes, then there is a small argument there for putting the papers on her, but I still would not do it for free.

Otherwise what would have been the point of not just dropping the price and giving them the papers anyway?

I too think that there needs to be a "non breeding" registration, but that would not solve a problem like this as the people would just come back for the full registration and not expect to have to pay for it (I can register my pups as non breeding and then I, as breeder, can lift that embargo, I am assuming the AKC is the same?)

Yes it's the same with the Canadian Kennel Club and the AKC. But only the original breeder can lift it. No other owner, ever, can lift it (there is a box that you check for this...I do).

 

[rabbitsfizz]

It was not your opinion, Allure, nor your right to it, that I was disputing.

It was the last, underlined, sentence of your post that I thought unfair.

 

[Allure Ranch]

It was not your opinion, Allure, nor your right to it, that I was disputing.

It was the last, underlined, sentence of your post that I thought unfair.

That's alright I still respect your opposition to my comment....

 

[midnight star stables]

Now I've never hardshipped/late registered a horse, but wouldn't it cost a pretty penny? I mean for a couple of dollars more the people could just buy a different horse already registered, yes? I think they want THIS one registered because they are already in love, and whether they want to breed it or show it I think it could be a good home. You have to think that most big horse people only see minis as pets - until they realize how much fun they really are

I would do it IMO.

Good luck!

 

[supaspot]

I too would never sell a horse without its papers , that said I would do everything I could to help hem register the horse as long as they paid all the costs (if it makes you feel happier get them to sign a contract giving you first option should they decide to sell) I believe that as a registered horse she would be more valued and have a better future and less likely to end up in the wrong hands

 

[Sue_C.]

I think ALL foals should be registered; aside from those with dwarfism, or signs of.

I have seen many cases of "ugly duckling syndrome", where that foal has matured into an astonishingly beautiful horse. Case in point...I have read more than once that it was thought Buckeroo was too ugly/gangly as a weanling/yearling, that it was thought that he wouldn't amount to much. We all know how THAT story panned out.

Then again, who are "you" to decide that a horse doesn't fit your perception of "perfect", and therefore doesn't deserve papers that it (IMO) has a right to?? That decision is based purely on a "halter" perspective, and to withhold the papers could very well be preventing the next harness champion from ever entering the breed ring. Remember, not everyone want a horse to show on the end of a rope; there is a LOT one can do with a horse besides showing in Halter.

 

[mizbeth]

If I sold a foal at a significant discount without papers to someone, and they in turn sold it to someone else and that someone else wanted papers, I would not do it either, especially three years later.

I have sold in the past at a discount a stallion as A only although he had R papers too - but also sold him as a gelding prospect, I did not consider him breeding material. Of the course the new owners wanted to breed him as it turned out and did - to many mares. I never canceled is R papers nor did I register him in my name as R, since in those days I did not belong to R. The new buyers went behind my back to the original owner and requested "she" sign the R papers over.(yes we had a contract) It was done, as the original owner contacted me to ask for permission to do it. Hmm.

I sold a colt as a papered colt with all papers and transfers in tack. The new owner never put him in her name and had him several years. She sold him to someone else who just recently wrote me and asked if I could help her get his papers. The person she sold him to has had him for a couple of years now according to her. I assume the person I sold him too, sold him very reasonably as well without the papers to the new (third) owners. I asked if they bought him with papers, expired or not, I have not heard back from them. Hmmm

There are many scenerios out there, somewhere the line needs to be drawn, how much help do you continue to give and for how long?

 

[mizbeth]

To add:

There are MANY breeders out there ( fact ) that do not register their foals immediately or even soon after birth. Big farms as well I'm talking about and others who buy horses (that post here), that never transfer them into their name anytime soon after purchase and sell them on the papers of the person they bought them from some time later.

According to AMHA rules (not sure on R) a registered horse sold without papers requires the papers to be submitted to AMHA and canceled within a short period of time after the sale. Not sure of the exact wordage, but this is the meaning.

So - your registred foal sold as unregistered should have had its papers canceled, you would not have this issue now if you had followed the guidelines.

 

[TyeeRanch]

This same sort of situation happened to us years ago. We had a colt born that was a beautiful, leggy, chestnut appaloosa colt. We only had a few mares and this was one breeding that I was really anxious for. The colt was very nice, however, it was quite obvious by the time he was a yearling that he was going to go over 34. He was only AMHA registered. I sold the colt to a pet home, no papers and for a pet price. Well, low and behold about two years later I got a call from a fellow breeder saying that she had purchased the colt and would like to have his papers. I told her No, that he was sold as a pet due to his size. This was 15 years ago, when AMHR was not as active as it is today. She swore that he was under 34, so we had someone go and measure him, and could not measure him under 34. The new owner then began to harass us a little, even threatened to "drag our name through the dirt". She had paid pet price and was not willing to pay more for paperwork. I again denied paperwork as I was not willing to register a horse I knew was oversized. Low and behold a couple of years later I heard of him being used as a stallion. Somewhere along the lines she had either forged the paperwork or ??. He was beautiful and sired very nice foals, but it amazed me at what lengths people are willing to go to in this situation.

 

[Carolyn R]

If the foal had no major defects that deemed it a dwarf, if it were me, it would be sold with papers. I have had some ask if I had a price without papers and I said no, it is a great injustice to the horse. There are plenty of unregistered minis out there, I will not contribute to that scenario. If a foal is to be sold as a gelding, I will geld it prior to it leaving the property.

If a horse's papers were lost along the way or the transfer was not followed through, and the horse was legitimately sold and not free leased, stollen, or something of the sort(just do our homework, make a few calls, make sure things are legit) I would help the new owner bring things up to date at their expense. There are too many variables that can occur once a horse is out of our hands, long story short, I sell with papers, if it is to be used as a gelding, it is sold as a gelding and gelded prior to leaving, if it is to be intact as a possible breeding prospect, it is sold for an intact price, if it doesn't pan out, oh well. I have purchased a prospect or two, and if it doesn't work out they are gelded, thats the way it goes, no one else's issue but my own.

With that said, in your case, I would make them pay the difference.

I am purchasing my second toy aussie from the same breeder. I was asked if I wanted breeding rights and I do not, I won't, but hypothetically, if I should change my mind and choose to breed her rather than spay, I would EXPECT to pay the difference in price, no questions asked! I would not place her in that scenario, very unprofessional for them to expect otherwise.

 

[D W 2]

I would say no papers unless they pay for a papered horse. it is their problem for buying an unregistered horse. If I could go around paying unregistered prices and then just asking for papers that would be one heck of a deal.

 

[Katiean]

My answer to that is no. You sold the foal with no papers, that means that she should not be bred.

I sell all of my dogs with limited registration (meaning they can not be bred or shown) I I would never agree to give full registration to a second party. They buy the dog the way it was originally sold.

The same should go for horses. We have too many Miniatures out there that no one wants, why should we encourage others to breed horses that were sold unregistered.

The fact is you can buy an unregistered or limited registered horse/dog at a lower price. This does not "STOP" people from breeding the animals. It just keeps people from breeding "Registered" animals. If the horse is registerable and the people are willing to pay the differance between what you sold the horse as a pet and what you were asking as a registered horse then I do not see a problem with it. They would be buying the papers. Nothing wrong with that. They could hardship the horse for $600 so either way they can get a registered horse out of this. No one ever said the horse was pet quality. Just that the people said they did not have enough to buy the horse with papers. I would not give the papers for free. I bought a horse on payments. The breeder held the papers. When I had paid just over 1/2 I could pick up the horse (in another state). Basicly, she had set a pet price for the horse. When the total price was paid, I got the papers. So, the remaining balance was for the papers. If the new owner is willing to pay for the papers I would do it. Howerer, I think I would insist on DNA to PQ her at the new owners expence.

 

[Katiean]

I went back through the other posts. If I sold a horse with papers, the new owners did not take care of paperwork and sold the horse again, I would give a couple of signatures to get the papers for the most recent owners. I would not go beyond a few signatures because I had already done the work to register the horse. But, let me ask Does it really hurt me to help someone?. Also, is it any of my business what the new owner paid for the horse? How did they know where to go to get the help if the sellers did not tell the new buyers about the papers? Just sign the transfers.