OK, I am confused

[stormy]

Off the Appy thread, if all facial and leg white on appys means pinto then all face and leg white on solids must mean pinto too. Are you telling me if my horse has a snip it carries a pinto gene?!

If it has one white fetlock it is a pinto?!

Any white indicates a pinto gene?!

I really find that hard to believe.

I have also seen a whole lot of blue eyes on silver (solid) horses.....how do you explain this?

 

[Miniv]

I'm not an appy breeder, so I'm bumping this up.

MA

 

[Jean_B]

Are you telling me if my horse has a snip it carries a pinto gene?!

No - I believe that to be a pinto it must have a patch of white somewhere on it's body that is around 3" x 3"...I believe. White socks, white pasterns, or face markings alone do not make the horse a pinto. Blue eyes MAY mean the horse somewhere carries a pinto gene - but without the white on the body - it is not a pinto.

 

[kaykay]

this is a confusing topic for many people. and you will get a lot of different answers.

Sabino is one of the biggest causes of face white and white legs. Its lumped in as a pinto gene but many feel it shouldnt be classified as pinto. Splash also causes white on the head and blue eyes. Frame also makes blue eyes.

What jean is describing is the ptha guidelines of what is a pinto. But that is not accurate.

Heres Ten Ls Tigers Back in black. No body white anywhere. But color tested tobiano. So white on the body is not a requirement unless you are going by ptha showing guidelines.

Genetic testing always tells the real story

 

[xtrememiniluv]

Wow...this is getting quite frustrating!!!

There is no GENETIC proof that white marking are linked to pinto patterns. There are NO accreditted websites (UC Davis etc) that confirm this "theory" that some people on this forum have tried to state as a fact.

This is how rumors get started, people post their theories as facts.

Please lets all remember this is a forum, meaning it is just peoples opinions and experiences. Just because someone hits reply and states their theory does not mean this is the truth!!

After reading the appy post where this controversy started I searched all over the web on accreditted genetics websites. From what I have read, it looks like they are looking into a gene that causes white on faces and feet. But there is no conclusive results

Please do not believe everything you read. Please question it, research it, and draw your own conclusions.

Just some food for thought...I would hate to see basically ALL horses advertised as "minimal pintos" because they have a blaze and white on their feet....

 

[rabbitsfizz]

This is NOT a "rumour" I have NO idea how you would get that idea.

Yes, all white markings are believed to be the result of one or more Pinto "genes" and indicate the presence of Pinto.

Thus by selectively breeding for theses markings, instead of against them, as is/was the norm, people have been able to produce a Pinto Arab (pure bred).

Arabs do not have Tobiano only Sabino, proven and Splash , believed to be present.

The same goes for TBs where there are some really really WILD coloured TBs now, purebred and proven.

So, basically, these are facts, proven by breeding, mostly, and occasionally by testing as in Kays case- although I do have to point out that there is not yet a test for Tobiano, as such, only the genes that are normally associated with Tobiano- in this case though, it looks like Tobiano, it tests positive for Tobiano- chances are it is Tobiano!!

The test for H/Z Tobi is a bit more accurate.

Splash has no test yet and Sabino has only a test for one type of Sabino- which is pretty much useless on it's own.

As I said in another thread, if you go to

http://www.equinecolor.com/forum/

with an open mind, you will get all the answers you want.

Again, this is not a "rumour" it is a proven by breeding, but not yet in all cases by tests, fact.

 

[kaykay]

wow im kinda suprised at the hostility. I do have proof that black has tested positive for one copy of the tobiano gene with no body white. That is a fact not a theory. I already had posted the test results from the testing facility about a month ago but if you want I will post it again.

one thing i do know for sure is that color theory and testing is getting more advanced all the time. So I would never say anything is set in stone. Years ago i talked to a customer at a resturant that had taken tons of genetic classes while in college. He said he could predict the colors based on breeding with dogs and cats but horses were a whole different story lol.

 

[Boinky]

i'm not a color expert..and i'm not saying one way or the other that it is or isn't.. BUT i'm not so certain i agree that it's a pinto gene in EVERY breed...but look at mini's. look at the VOLUME of miniatures that are pinto's. consider where much of the mini blood came from (a whole lot of shetlands who also tend to be pinto). MOST LIKELY most of the population of mini's have some pinto gene in there somehwere!

 

[Flaxenacres]

You tell me were on equine color that it says all face white come from pinto or paint! i only find the scientific for paints. Not that face white on Appaloosas comes from the paint gene! If you check out the Appaloosa breed spicifics they have white faces and are allowed blue eyes! If for 1 minute they thought this came from Paint genes they would not allow it! Also Non colored Appaloosas have to be blood typed before being Registered to prove that they are by the parents that is said to foal them! And some Appaloosa breeders claim like you are claiming that white is a Paint gene, They claim that the solids throw more color. I have been in the Appaloosas for 21 years and I have never saw a leathel white Appaloosa from a parent that has blue eyesor have I seen an appaloosa that came out looking like a paint. And I have knowen many bald face blue eyes! I also am friends with many well respected Appaloosa breeders. And they cant all hide mistakes when you have customer coming and going. As for the forum on equine color I only find what people say, not any proof. Why dont you go on the Appaloosa color forum and tell them what you think!

Wow...this is getting quite frustrating!!!

There is no GENETIC proof that white marking are linked to pinto patterns. There are NO accreditted websites (UC Davis etc) that confirm this "theory" that some people on this forum have tried to state as a fact.

This is how rumors get started, people post their theories as facts.

Please lets all remember this is a forum, meaning it is just peoples opinions and experiences. Just because someone hits reply and states their theory does not mean this is the truth!!

After reading the appy post where this controversy started I searched all over the web on accreditted genetics websites. From what I have read, it looks like they are looking into a gene that causes white on faces and feet. But there is no conclusive results

Please do not believe everything you read. Please question it, research it, and draw your own conclusions.

Just some food for thought...I would hate to see basically ALL horses advertised as "minimal pintos" because they have a blaze and white on their feet....

 

[Boinky]

Kay,

I have a mare like your guy. She's all black (well she does have some sabino ticking throughout her coat) but most people would consider her just a black horse. she has huge white stocking and a teeny weeny little star and teeny little white spot on her bottom lip. I've never bothered to have her tested but i'm quite certain she's a pinto since both parents and most of her line was.

I also have a bay stallion who is SOLID.. no white but was sired by a pinto sire and i think although dam was solid all her forebearers were pinto's. just goes to show because they are SOLID doens't mean they don't have pinto in there.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

What I have read, is that any horse with white on it has SOME form of pinto, but there is a modifier gene that limits it to JUST the head and/or legs.

Color genetics have come a long, long way from when it was just tobiano and overo. And they are learning new things constantly. So what was written as "law" may, and probably has, changed from just a few years ago!

Lucy

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I dont look at it quite the same way as some here. I don't feel the "sabino gene" that they say causes white on the face ect is really a true "pinto" gene in the way that most think of pinto.

I don't believe that a huge percentage of T/B,s Arabs QH, Appy's ect are truly pintos cause they have a star or a snip or a blaze.

I think many get confused or even irratated when the word pinto is used or not used it can become quite heated so I just have to remember that really it is just the term "pinto" and FOR ME I don't consider it to be a "true" pinto.

Many may disagree with me and that is fine it just is how I choose to look at it

 

[Songcatcher]

It is true, there are two camps in regard to the belief that all white markings are caused by one or another of the Pinto genes. Mark me in the camp that believes they are. As I stated on another thread, I do entertain the "THEORY" that there may be more varities of Pinto genes than are commonly considered.

What is acceptable for registration and showing purposes and what can be genetically proven are often two different things. The stallion pictured in my avatar is by two parents registered as "Solid". Obviously NOT!

The following filly is LAB TESTED Tobiano and also obviously carries Sabino, but would not have the necessary white to be registered as a Pinto.

If you look closely, on the right of her neck, there is a white spot about the width of my finger and half as long.

I also entertain the "theory" that there may be restrictor genes that limit the placement of white on the body somewhat in the way that Agouti limits the placement of Black.

Here is the above filly's dam, also lab tested Tobiano. I have found that minimal markings are predominant in this particular line of horses.

Some relative newcomers seem determined to come on this Forum and tell some of the older members how wrong they are. Its a free country. People can say what they want. Some people on BOTH sides cannot be convinced.

 

[Kim~Crayonboxminiatures]

The very frustrating thing already shown her on this posting, is that Miniature Horses especially carry some gene that minimizes white, so that what would be a full blown tobiano pinto markings on a full size horses, are only stockings and a snip on Miniatures, etc.

This has been recognized by experts doing scientific research, such as Sheila Archer doing research to isolate the appaloosa gene.

Researchers have also discovered Sabino to be polygenic, so not all forms of Sabino will be a full blown pinto, but limited to leg face markings. The problem is lots of terms such as pinto, overo, sabino were created years ago before extensive knowledge and research was done.

Advances are being made so quickly so that much of the information is outdated. Unless you are on a group such as The Appaloosa Project with researchers who are currently working on equine genetics and keeping up with the newest discoveries.

I'm sorry I created such a stir.

 

[stormy]

Some stirs are good, esp. if they give us an opportunity to learn new stuff.

Can't say as I am a believer, guess it depends on the definition of pinto but I also had a mare with only socks and a snip that had all pinto foals when bred to solid so I know pinto can hide but I do have a hard time swallowing all horses with white markings are genetically pinto.

Guess for now I will keep my own opinion, I am not convinced white sock means pinto. I also do not believe all blue eyed horses carry pinto and my beliefs are based on my own life experiance, but life is short! Time will tell!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

THIS is what I call a Pinto Arabian.

I was not talking about a horse with white socks and a blaze face, BUT this mare has been bred from that stock, and ONLY that stock- ie horses with white faces and socks- as that is all that is available within the purebred lines.

Looks Pinto to me!!!!

See this is where I get confused- why would you think, when you breed a mare with white socks and a snip, that Pinto can "hide" (it cannot) but not realise that your mare was Pinto???

 

[Flaxenacres]

[YES! BUT you had to cross A Pinto and Arab To get Pinto-Arab! Even though it is a breed it derived from crossing 2 different breeds. The same goes for App- Arab, Thourough bred- Arab. Thoughrough bred-App. And Pintoloosa. But when you have a pure bred App. Thouroughbred , Arab I still do not believe that the white comes from a Pinto gene. And I have to agree with Kim from crayon box. things change so quik and they discover new things all the time. No one except the experts can keep up. And they dont even have all the answers!

quote name=rabbitsfizz' date='Jun 25 2007, 04:17 PM' post='837777]

THIS is what I call a Pinto Arabian.

I was not talking about a horse with white socks and a blaze face, BUT this mare has been bred from that stock, and ONLY that stock- ie horses with white faces and socks- as that is all that is available within the purebred lines.

Looks Pinto to me!!!!

 

[love_casper]

[YES! BUT you had to cross A Pinto and Arab To get Pinto-Arab! Even though it is a breed it derived from crossing 2 different breeds.

that picture rabby posted was NOT half pinto! if you'd just read what she wrote:

"I was not talking about a horse with white socks and a blaze face, BUT this mare has been bred from that stock, and ONLY that stock- ie horses with white faces and socks- as that is all that is available within the purebred lines."

this mare was bred from pure arabs that only had face white and some socks! there was no paint horse bred in there....it's just that those arabs carried Sabino, like most breeds do.......and the pic she posted showed that it shows up in different amounts of expression. that horse was pinto bred from what most would call "solid" parents. it's not that the pinto hid, it's that it was only shown minimally in the parents (through small amounts of face and leg whie).

 

[Dona]

There is a lot of confusion going on here.

There is a difference between a "visual" pinto and a "genetic" pinto. But they BOTH will carry the pinto gene & will be capable or producing pintos.

:

Basically, you need to have a certain amount of body white to be qualified as a "pinto". And I would hesitate to describe any horse as pinto when they are solid with only facial white & low socks.

BUT......any horse can be a "genetic" pinto (carrying pinto genes) with as little as a tiny snip, or even one that "appears" to be totally solid (as proven by KayKays solid horse that was tested to carry Tobiano) I do believe that any "genetic" pinto WILL show some form of white "somewhere". It could be a little as a tiny white spot in a place hard to see such as a genital (up in the sheath) or on the tailbone, resulting in a few white hairs in the tail.....or a scattering of white "Sabino" hairs somewhere. These, I would describe as "genetic" Pintos when talking about them.

I am a firm believer that yes...ANY white "markings" on a horse (besides Appy markings) is the result of "some" pinto gene at work.

:

 

[LizardBreath]

I think the problem here is that people hear the word "pinto", and want to SEE the pinto. A horses face a leg white can be caused by a pinto gene, but that doesn't make the horse a pinto (not visually anyway)

Here's an example:

This is my 17/18 Arab gelding. His sire is a purebred sabino, bald face, above the knee white on all 4 legs, and white on the belly and sides. His dam is a part-arab, who is a frame overo, and carries sabino.

My gelding has only one white sock, a star, and a small snip, but is genetically tested to be a sabino.

The confusing part would be saying he is a "pinto". I don't consider him to be pinto, but I am saying that his face and leg white is cause by the sabino gene he carries. Does that make more sense?