OK, I am confused

[chandab]

Some of the confusion comes from calling the genes involved "pinto" genes. I like the fact that Equinecolor.com calls them "white Patterns" and explains them very well.

Here's a link to Equinecolor.com's color page: http://www.equinecolor.com/color.html White patterns are 1/2-3/4 the way down the page.

 

[AceyHorse]

This is so interesting, great debate!

 

[Lewella]

Wow...this is getting quite frustrating!!!

There is no GENETIC proof that white marking are linked to pinto patterns. There are NO accreditted websites (UC Davis etc) that confirm this "theory" that some people on this forum have tried to state as a fact.

This is how rumors get started, people post their theories as facts.

UC Davis is not the authority on everything color. They are only one of MANY authorities.

Do some research and get YOUR facts straight whoever you are. U of KY researched sabino, developed a test for one form, and PROVED that when that form is NOT HOMOZYGOUS the result is a horse with NORMAL markings.

A Swedish university researched Splash White and discovered essentially the same thing as U of KY discovered about Sabino - that heterozygous individuals have NORMAL markings.

Frame is testable - we KNOW that Frame can express in as little as blue eyes or a small star and many have just a blaze. NORMAL white markings again!

Tobiano is testable - we know that some tobianos DO NOT have body white and some don't even have white on all 4 feet. Hmm, don't those white feet qualify as NORMAL white markings also? Do we see a trend here???

So before you go spouting off about others not knowing what they are talking about and posting theories as fact you had better have YOUR facts straight!!! Genetic testing DOES NOT LIE!!!

 

[disneyhorse]

Yes Lewella... and genetic testing only gets better and better as time goes on but we don't have all the answers yet.

Consider... a solid horse is a solid horse. It will not throw socks or blazes or anything like that. So the WHITE markings, very very minimal different form of pinto... are something that genetically gets passed on. It's a gene, of sorts. How it manifests itself is still under debate. Some believe it is a form of Sabino, which is a Pinto gene in the respect that it puts WHITE hair on a SOLID colored horse.

That's all there is to it.

But it's not a "pinto" in that most people think a pinto is ideally a 50-50% marked horse with big solid white patches. Sooooo yes.... I suppose if your Appaloosa has a blaze it DOES sort of have "pinto" genetics in that the white blaze genetics works independently from the appy genetics.

However, I think only with intensive marking breeding (like the purebred Sabino Arab picture that has been posted) will the white markings on a face or socks ever "evolve" into something more, more white hair elsewhere.

I think color genetics in horses is quite interesting!

Andrea

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

Some of the confusion comes from calling the genes involved "pinto" genes. I like the fact that Equinecolor.com calls them "white Patterns" and explains them very well.

Now this makes more sense and I think calling them White pattern genes as opposed to "pinto" genes will make all the diffrence in the world - yes some of those white pattern genes will be the ones that produce a "pinto" however some of those white pattern genes will produce just that a star, a snip a sock and never go on to produce more white then that.

Not all "pinto or white pattern" genes are equal

:

 

[Mona]

yes some of those white pattern genes will be the ones that produce a "pinto" however some of those white pattern genes will produce just that a star, a snip a sock and never go on to produce more white then that.

Not all "pinto or white pattern" genes are equal

:

But that's the thing...what they have found out by breeding individuals that are purebreds in their breed, is that breeding socks, stars, blazes etc. to socks, stars blazes etc. have been proven to produce the wildly marked sabino pinto pattern in Arabians and Thoroughbreds as was shown here in Rabbitfizz's photo of the purebred Arabian.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

I agree Mona but I dont think it is the "norm" not that it doesnt happen but on a T/ B breeding farm or Arab farm (at least ones I have worked for and or lived and drove by or have friends that own) they can breed horses with a star or a sock or a snip to other horses and go years without getting a loud colored sabino so yes it "can" happen however it isnt something that is sure to give you color or even necessarily probable to give you color again not saying it cant or doesnt happen but that type of lets call it a white marker doesnt often equal loud sabino patterns or colors it more often then not reproduces itself in the same type of white markers (blaze, snip, sock or star)

 

[Mona]

I agree Mona but I dont think it is the "norm" not that it doesnt happen but on a T/ B breeding farm or Arab farm (at least ones I have worked for and or lived and drove by or have friends that own) they can breed horses with a star or a sock or a snip to other horses and go years without getting a loud colored sabino so yes it "can" happen however it isnt something that is sure to give you color or even necessarily probable to give you color again not saying it cant or doesnt happen but that type of lets call it a white marker doesnt often equal loud sabino patterns or colors it more often then not reproduces itself in the same type of white markers (blaze, snip, sock or star)

No, that's true enough.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Just to reiterate as some people seem incapable of reading posts correctly:-

The mare pictured in my post is a PUREBRED Arab mare who is expressing PINTO.

I think that all white on an animal is expression of Pinto (white pattern, if you prefer), and the fact that PUREBRED Arabs and PUREBRED TBs have expressed Pinto merely by being bred to do so, as opposed to being bred not to do so, as has always been the case in the past, proves that these minimal markings can also spontaneously erupt into Pinto.

Pinto is not "hidden" or "carried" it does not skip generations.

If it does any hiding it does so in white socks and blazes, and blue eyes!!

 

[HGFarm]

It is my understanding (and I am sure I will be corrected if wrong) that if a horse that is half Arab is bred back to an Arab, and that offspring is bred back to an Arab, etc.... that after the horse is showing 15/16ths or so Arab breeding, it is allowed to be registered as a purebred??? (Dont shoot the messenger that is just what I was told by someone- I have not researched it)

Also, since more breeds have gone to DNA'ing horses (since someone in the Morgans was caught breeding to a gaited horse for more action and registering them as Morgans, and things of that nature happen in other breeds..... ) how do we know what horse was REALLY crossed with what five generations back??

Just my opinion, but I do not think whatever makes face and leg markings are tied with Pintos. I think it is a seperate thing.

You are telling me that my leopard stallion who has a snip and a tiny white ring above one foot is pinto? He has no visible pinto in his pedigree for more generations than I can research. So if he is tested he is going to come back showing he carries pinto genes? This would mean that he could sire pintos or pintoloosas then. Mmmmm, I dont think it will happen.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

No, NO animal not recorded as 100% Arab is ever allowed to be registered as Arab, it does not matter how many generations of purebred you have, if there is one that is not registered it is not allowed.

Every single Arab registered today can trace it's lineage to the desert and thereon to verbal pedigree.

The mare is PUREBRED no Pinto except what was already there in the "high whites" we have all seen for many years.

You have NO way of knowing what is in your stallions past, Pinto wise, unless you know his ancestors by pictures or hearsay (ie someone who has seen them.

If you are relying on the AMHA or even the AMHR to give you the correct colour or pattern you are foolish to place such reliance.

It is true that, before DNA, someone could have slipped a Pinto into the Arab genes- but why would they have done??

It is only recently that Pinto purebreds have been allowed to be registered- since DNA testing, in fact, as, before that, even when they really were "pure" they were discarded!!

Anyway the mare's pattern is consistent with Sabino, without Tobiano, so I have no problem with it.

And, Yes, your stallion could sire a Pintaloosa- you would probably not recognise it as such but, yes, it could happen.

Has he had blaze faced foals???

If so, there is your (minimal) Pintaloosa.

 

[Songcatcher]

You are telling me that my leopard stallion who has a snip and a tiny white ring above one foot is pinto? He has no visible pinto in his pedigree for more generations than I can research. So if he is tested he is going to come back showing he carries pinto genes? This would mean that he could sire pintos or pintoloosas then. Mmmmm, I dont think it will happen.

Some Pinto genes can be tested for and some cannot. Some must be in homozygous form to produce wild markings (don't remember if that was discussed in this thread or another one). Some (LWO) are lethal in homozygous form.

Why don't you test him and find out? :bgrin Although, if he carries Splash, there is no test for that as yet.

 

[HGFarm]

I DID research his history before I purchased him, not from AMHA or AMHR records but from the original breeder with a ton of pictures of both stallions and mares. Many of the studs are on my reference page. The Appy goes back for generations- with 22 of the first 26 horses being Appaloosas, and it goes on back from there.... Many of them had no face markings, so why would you get offspring that did?

 

[Dona]

I DID research his history before I purchased him, not from AMHA or AMHR records but from the original breeder with a ton of pictures of both stallions and mares. Many of the studs are on my reference page. The Appy goes back for generations- with 22 of the first 26 horses being Appaloosas, and it goes on back from there.... Many of them had no face markings, so why would you get offspring that did?

Well...you didn't say "All"...you said "MANY". All it takes is one.

:

If Absolutely EVERY horse in your Appy's background had NO white facial or leg markings whatsoever.....how do you explain the white markings on yours? It doesn't just crop up for no reason. You're basing your opinion on what you are being told are the correct stallions in a background too, which we all know can be wrong sometimes.

Edited to add:

I just went to your site to check out the horses in Renegade's background. All you have to do is go back to his dam to see where he got his white markings. Renegade's dam has lots of facial white, as well as a front sock & what appears to be a high white stocking in the rear. Those are definite pinto markings...which is where Renegade gets his.

:

 

[chandab]

I DID research his history before I purchased him, not from AMHA or AMHR records but from the original breeder with a ton of pictures of both stallions and mares. Many of the studs are on my reference page. The Appy goes back for generations- with 22 of the first 26 horses being Appaloosas, and it goes on back from there.... Many of them had no face markings, so why would you get offspring that did?

Did those without face white, have leg white? Many of the white pattern genes produce face white and/or leg white; so a horse with leg white but no face white could still have the genes to produce the face white, even though that horse isn't expressing that part of the white pattern gene.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

For instance I have Splash lurking in my lines, it "crops up" as it were in white coronets and white hairs on the face- I have stopped looking, quite frankly as it is very nice when it turns up , as it has just done, as a perfect white star on the face!!