New Mini Mule Need Help

[ponyarab]

I just got a new mini mule on Thursday 1/1/09 and I need some help. Before explaining let me say that I've had horses for over 30 years and I train them but I know that mules are different but this is to let everyone know that I am not new to horses. My intentions are to have him gelded and hopefully someday show him.

My mini mule is still intact is 2 years old and had not hardly been handled. When I went to get him in order to get a halter on him they had to squeeze him into a chute put a rope around his neck and pull him up tight to the fence to get a halter on him. While trying to help the man put a halter on him he bit my arm and thank goodness he did not hold on as he let go as fast as he bit me. When I got him home my husband unload him for me and he literally drug my husband (skiing style) around the yard 6 different times before we could get him in a pen. Now I have never done this but for this mule I left his halter and drag lead on him so that I could catch him. On Friday when I went to work with him he got very nervous was ducking his head and running the fence and when he quit and turned to look at me I backed up to release the pressure. I have a long stick that I use in my Natural Horsemanship training and I was using that to touch him with and he did start to accept it. When he got scared he would turn and run to the fence and if he felt the rope on his HQ's he would kick violently. Friday I was working with him and doing the same things as yesterday but now he is charging at me and trying to bite me. I think I read somewhere that if you start hitting on them they get worse so all I did was wave my arms in the air and say NO very loudly. On Saturday I stayed outside of his pen so that I could stay safe with the fence between us and I took and wrapped the lead around the fence so he would have to stay close and then I took the stick and was touching the sides of his neck. Today Sunday I did the same thing and he seems like he is getting better with this as he is now not swishing his tail.

I know that he needs to be gelded but the way he is right now I don't know how a vet would get close enough to him to sedate him unless they squeezed him up in a chute. It is also my understand that if they are scared and you sedate them it can mask the sedation and then the vet thinks you need to give them more and then they wind up being over sedated and could kill them. So any suggestions? HELP!!!!!

Thanks

 

[ponyarab]

I guess I made a mistake by putting my question on here since this is a Donkey board as I see that 12 people have looked at the post but I guess there is not one that can give me suggestions for dealing with my mini mule. Is there anyway that I can delete my posting?

 

[Chico]

My husband suggests many of Clinton Andersons techniques. We had a mare with a few difficult issues and he found his technique helpful. We found several of his c.d.'s at the library. Very expensive if you buy outright. Horse techniques, but we have used the ideas with our donks. Donks are quick learners when they understand and know that their behavior makes you so happy. Good luck! People are very nice and helpful here but maybe they just don't know how they can help. Me neither really, but it's an idea.

chico

 

[minimule]

You've got your work cut out for you that's for sure. Mules are very different from horses. A horse you can "make" do what you want but a mule takes time and patience to teach them what you want. You aren't going to be able to rush him at all. Take things as slow as possible. Yes, he should have been gelded LOOONNNG ago but nothing you can do about that now. My boys are gelded before they turn 3 months if possible. In my own experience it helps a lot with attitudes.

Mules are a lot stronger than a horse. They can pull more and carry more.

Here is what I would suggest you do......

Spend a lot of time talking to him through the fence. He needs to learn to trust you. He's testing you by charging at you. I wouldn't give him the opportunity. I would spend a few hours a day just sitting and talking to him. It's going to take a long time. Not being handled is a bad thing for most mules. Mine are handled daily from the time they are born. I touch them everywhere I can and teach them that kicking is a bad thing.

It's going to be hard to teach him not to kick until you earn his trust. They do remember if you hurt them or if they "think" you hurt them. Wait on that until you can at least touch him and handle him. He will probably not kick as much once you earn his trust.

The most important thing I can tell you........BE PATIENT!!!!! It is going to take some time. Some people think it would be great to breed and raise miniature mules but they don't do their homework to learn the differences between the equines and what needs to be done to properly raise a mule. They think and reason where a horse doesn't. If they aren't raised properly, you create an animal that can kill or maim someone.

Good luck with him and I'm here for you. I'll try to help you any way I can.

 

[ponyarab]

My husband suggests many of Clinton Andersons techniques. We had a mare with a few difficult issues and he found his technique helpful. We found several of his c.d.'s at the library. Very expensive if you buy outright. Horse techniques, but we have used the ideas with our donks. Donks are quick learners when they understand and know that their behavior makes you so happy. Good luck! People are very nice and helpful here but maybe they just don't know how they can help. Me neither really, but it's an idea.

chico

Thanks for your reply. I use Clinton's methods on all of my horses but since Mules and Donkeys are different I did not want to try any of that until I talked to some people who have used this type of method with mules. I've been training with the Natural Horsemanship methods since 1995 as I was an instructor for Parelli and I also have several of Clinton's tapes. I know that people are very nice on this board but I figured that it must be only for donkeys.

 

[ponyarab]

You've got your work cut out for you that's for sure. Mules are very different from horses. A horse you can "make" do what you want but a mule takes time and patience to teach them what you want. You aren't going to be able to rush him at all. Take things as slow as possible. Yes, he should have been gelded LOOONNNG ago but nothing you can do about that now. My boys are gelded before they turn 3 months if possible. In my own experience it helps a lot with attitudes. Mules are a lot stronger than a horse. They can pull more and carry more.

Here is what I would suggest you do......

Spend a lot of time talking to him through the fence. He needs to learn to trust you. He's testing you by charging at you. I wouldn't give him the opportunity. I would spend a few hours a day just sitting and talking to him. It's going to take a long time. Not being handled is a bad thing for most mules. Mine are handled daily from the time they are born. I touch them everywhere I can and teach them that kicking is a bad thing.

It's going to be hard to teach him not to kick until you earn his trust. They do remember if you hurt them or if they "think" you hurt them. Wait on that until you can at least touch him and handle him. He will probably not kick as much once you earn his trust.

The most important thing I can tell you........BE PATIENT!!!!! It is going to take some time. Some people think it would be great to breed and raise miniature mules but they don't do their homework to learn the differences between the equines and what needs to be done to properly raise a mule. They think and reason where a horse doesn't. If they aren't raised properly, you create an animal that can kill or maim someone.

Good luck with him and I'm here for you. I'll try to help you any way I can.

Thanks for your reply. I figured he was going to take awhile and alot of patience. I will not rush him and I promise to take it slowwwww. So for gelding him should I wait until I get him calmed down some or would it be best to have it done as soon as possible? You say to spend alot of time talking to him thru the fence so would you suggest that I get his halter and drag rope off of him? What size of pen would be best to keep him in? Would it be good to put a buddy in with him or best without so he will bond to me as he can see my horses but he is not close enough to any of them to touch them. I appreciate you response because like I said I want to do this right and really want to give him a chance.

 

[krissy3]

sorry to hear of the truble , i have a special needs donkey...

he is not easy , but we have found a system that will work for us. You might try hand feeding him so he lets you near him , and realizes he needs you around to eat. then slowly work from that. If he thinks you are the one producing the food he needs to survive , maybe he will put 2 and 2 together...I dont know . a lot of people that I know try this with rescued horses...good luck

 

[Bunnylady]

Hey, Kim!

One thing you need to know about this forum - sometimes it takes a while to get a response. Maybe it's a longear thing, I don't know, but look on it as a lesson in the kind of patience it takes to deal with these critters!

I must confess, I was one of the people who looked at your original post, and didn't reply. Most of what I know about donkeys and mules is hearsay, my experience is limited to one - count 'em - one, mini mule, my Betsy. Go ahead, do a search of this forum for Betsy's name, and you can read plenty about what an experience it has been! I was "thrown in at the deep end" when a friend gave her to me, about a year and a half ago. While she was nowhere near the fire-breathing dragon that your boy is acting like, we had plenty of issues to work through. Kicking, nipping, rearing, stepping on my feet (and other variations on invading my space,) being hard to catch, you get the picture. I had no experience at training equines of any sort, which didn't help. Or maybe it did, perhaps I was more open to trying something else, than I would have been, if I had one set of guidelines that I relied on. Who knows?

Anyway, Betsy and I have made a lot of progress. There is still a certain reserve, and probably always will be, but we are much more comfortable with each other now. I can hug her, or cradle her head in my arms, without her tensing up (or trying to nip me!) If the way she leans a little into me at those times means much, she may even like it!

Betsy and I can second much of what Shawna (minimule) said. She knows tons more about mules than I do, that's for sure! I have no experience with john mules, but all I've heard and read makes me think that your boy is demonstrating why most of them are gelded at the get-go. But whether you should geld him now, or wait until you have a little more "handle" on him, that's a toughie. You have to weigh dealing with his hormones against the inevitable rough handling that would be involved in getting him sedated, and the post-op pain (which he'll experience in any case.) Will he hold it against you? Maybe, at least for a while. Will he be easier to deal with, without the excess hardware? Almost certainly, but you know that.

Having a well-behaved buddy that can lead by example might make him easier to "tame," but I would wait until after he's gelded. Once again, those hormones could make him dangerous company. My molly mule is very attached to horses, I don't know what your boy is used to, as far as companionship.

Oh, yeah, one other thing I'd like to mention. Corinne (where is she, BTW?) would tell you to keep your hands (and stick!!) low, when working with your boy. That means below the withers. Donkeys seem to take high hands as a threat, and get spooky. I know Betsy didn't like me touching her neck at first, and was particularly protective of her ears.I learned pretty quickly that I had to buckle and unbuckle things like halters and bridles, I must not just pull them over her ears!

Stay safe with your boy, hopefully he'll come around quickly for you. Once you've had a mule in your life, it'll never be quite the same!

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

Bunnylady, I am here, and I do pop in quit often during the day, to check on things.. I try not to always respond immediately, and let others have there imput on this forum as well...ohh, and I have been exceptionally busy lately...lol.. Anyways, everything Shawna said I am going to say is right. Horses cannot be trained like a donkey, mule, or hinny! Ponyarab, everything you did was opposite of how you would go about training a mule. You need Patience, AND LOTS OF IT. What you all mentioned in your post, your mule was reacting normal, you were the one who was coming across as aggressive, and your mule was acting out in the only way he knew how to ...to defend himself. You will need to have him gelded as soon as possible, and then start from scratch like both of you know nothing..and for you that is going to mean forget about Parelli or Anderson training. Get to know and TRUST each other first, keep your voice low and your hands low, dont use any training sticks, carrots sticks or anything else..just you and him, and learning trust. Once you have his trust, take baby steps in his training, always keeping you voice low, and hands low, always make sure you end your training session on a good note.

By you waving your hands in the air and screaming no..you were coming across to him as aggressive. Get rid of that stick, and use your hands to work with him. It sounds somewhat like you are afraid of him??? (if you are, you will need to get over that first and formost, believe me, your mule will know if you are, and he will really push you then!) If he was tied up to a fence, why were you not just trying to rub your hand down neck, instead of using a stick? You do have ALOT of work ahead of you, but by both of you taking it slow and learing to trust one another he can become a wonderful long ear pal for many years. It is well worth the time and effort you will have to put into him. Its sad, 2 years old and not use to humans, but he is definitely young enough to turn all his bad behavior around with the right methods. Mules, and hinnys can be alot harder to work with then a donkey, but you definitely need to earn his trust before you can go on to step two. Yes, you can over sedate a donkey, mule or hinny. Remember PATIENCE and TRUST, go hand in hand when working with long ears. They learn fast and never forget, but have to be 150% sure of anything that is being asked of them, before they will do it. Let us know how your training is coming along. Would love to see a pic of him as well. I would not put a buddy in with him at the moment, he needs to lear to accept humans, not just a buddy. Do you have anything like a small round pen you can work with him in? Take a chair (if your one of the lucky ones who live in a area with warm weather

) and set it in the middle, grab yourself a good book and just go out there and sit with im. Soon, his curisioty will get the best of him and he will come wondering over to you..then offer him your hand, to sniff, and dont pay alot of attention to him at this point..let him come to you. Keeping voice and hands always low, and patience under control. If you ever feel like your patience is going to get the best of you..end your session sooner, but on a good note, so you always go forward in your training and not back. Corinne

 

[Chico]

I told you everyone is very nice and helpful here! I hope you feel better and are ready to get started with your new little guy. My husband wanted me to let you know that horses and donkeys(mules) are very different but the idea of starting slow and taking one step at a time is the same. He did say that he would start by just being near the little guy so he could watch him and listen to him talk. Best wishes!

chico

 

[ponyarab]

I want to thank everyone for their replies as I appreciate it so much because like I said I want to do this the right way. I will write more later on this evening as I've got to go to town in a few minutes.

 

[Marsha Cassada]

ponyarab, I was wondering, if the stick you were touching him with, as in Natural Horsemanship, is like the wand that Linda Tellington's TTouch uses?

Why is it they hate their ears touched? Darn! Those soft, long ears are practically irristable!!

 

[minimule]

Marsha.....that isn't normal. All my longears, no matter what size, LOVE to have their ears rubbed. They get this almost ecstatic look on their faces when you rub inside and out. Some people twist the long ears to get their attention or make them stand still (not at my place!)

 

[Bunnylady]

I believe minimule is right - it isn't touching that's the problem. It seems to be pulling and twisting of the ears (I think Rabbitsfizz has said that donkey bridles in the UK unbuckle at the crown to avoid this.) Betsy was quite mature when I got her (supposedly nine years old, I don't know for sure,) and knows all about being "eared." She's only 33" tall, and I suspect has spent her life being wrestled into things, rather than being allowed to check a situation out and decide to cooperate. I have seen her stand perfectly still when a child was touching her ears, she is very careful around children!

I can understand why a person would use a stick with an unhandled, full-sized horse - one kick could kill you! But when working with a mini, we have to remember that we can look pretty big and scary to them. I don't lunge Besty very often, she finds it really boring. Once in a while is OK, but do it too often, and she gets sour on me. Even though I have never, ever hit her with it, there are times when the little 3' whip that I use is just too much pressure for her. At times like that, I scrap any plans I have for working in the pen, and we go for a walk, instead.

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

Mine all love to have there ears "rubbed". Donkeys have always had the bad reputation as being stubborn (which they are not) so it seems to be easy for anyone not familiar with working with donks that because of this so called "stubbonness" they just really at times get there donkeys roughed up, thinking that will help..which it dont. They will whip them- to get them to move OH! , pull on there ears,

and yes twist there ears to try to calm them down.

, if all this fails one of two things usually happens...the donkey gets passed on, or left to fend on his own, with llittle or no more human interaction. I really wish there was a "test" everyone would have to take before making the move into purchasing a donkey, and being allowed to own one! (WELL...I can wish!!!!) I have had so many bad rescues in that you couldnt get near, but yet one look into those beautiful eyes tell you everything and you know how afraid the donkey really is of us humans, and what he has been through. With love, UNDERSTANDING, and yes..gentleness..every one of those unruly donkeys made a complete turn around in a very short time..no whips, sticks, crops, or ear twisting, just PATIENCE and understanding, that includes my zedonk who did revert back to his "wild" side after he was 2 yrs old, and if any animal would test someones patience and skills he was going to be the one!!

I am a very firm believer that because of the size of our miniatures, we do not need to resort to any rough handling at all. All that proves to me is that the person working with the donkey, never took the time to do any research on training, has NO PATIENCE, or understanding of exactly what the donkey is being asked to do. Marsha, I also was going to tell you that I think the TTouch method is great, that is the method I used with all of our arabs, saddlebred, and drafts. For anyone not familiar with it ..is it just a very gentle way of training by touching certain areas of the body, along with movement and body language. Not only does it work for training but also for the horses health and helps with performance animals. Linda (the one who started this program ...about 50 years ago..am I aging myself here or what??)..

also works with people as a alternative healing method. She has videos and books out, and has one of the best taining methods I have ever heard about, used and has worked over and over. She does not do "fad" training methods, no gimmicks or sticks. Corinne

 

[Chico]

My boys like their ears rubbed and kissed too.

chico

 

[ponyarab]

Get to know and TRUST each other first, keep your voice low and your hands low, dont use any training sticks, carrots sticks or anything else..just you and him, and learning trust. Once you have his trust, take baby steps in his training, always keeping you voice low, and hands low, always make sure you end your training session on a good note.

By you waving your hands in the air and screaming no..you were coming across to him as aggressive.
Well from watching Meredith Hodges on RFDTV she says to yell at them and say "No" which is what I did as I knew better than to try and hit him because it would make things worse.

Get rid of that stick, and use your hands to work with him. It sounds somewhat like you are afraid of him??? (if you are, you will need to get over that first and formost, believe me, your mule will know if you are, and he will really push you then!)

What I did with my stick before I touched him was let him smell it before I tried to touch his neck. My stick has a rubber hook on the end so that I can scratch him. I did this because I knew that if I got any closer to him he would have been very fearful so I was just trying to give him space and feel more comfortable with me at a distance. I am not afraid as I am cautious after him charging me and I would say anyone would be a fool if they did not stay on the side of caution. Better to be on the side of caution than to go right in and get hurt really bad!!!

If he was tied up to a fence, why were you not just trying to rub your hand down neck, instead of using a stick? You do have ALOT of work ahead of you, but by both of you taking it slow and learing to trust one another he can become a wonderful long ear pal for many years. It is well worth the time and effort you will have to put into him.

I did not have him tied when I was rubbing him with the stick as I only had a hold of his rope and he was free to leave me. Yes I do have my work cut out for me but I am looking forward to our journey together.

Its sad, 2 years old and not use to humans, but he is definitely young enough to turn all his bad behavior around with the right methods. Mules, and hinnys can be alot harder to work with then a donkey, but you definitely need to earn his trust before you can go on to step two. Yes, you can over sedate a donkey, mule or hinny. Remember PATIENCE and TRUST, go hand in hand when working with long ears. They learn fast and never forget, but have to be 150% sure of anything that is being asked of them, before they will do it. Let us know how your training is coming along. Would love to see a pic of him as well. I would not put a buddy in with him at the moment, he needs to lear to accept humans, not just a buddy. Do you have anything like a small round pen you can work with him in? Take a chair (if your one of the lucky ones who live in a area with warm weather

) and set it in the middle, grab yourself a good book and just go out there and sit with im. Soon, his curisioty will get the best of him and he will come wondering over to you..then offer him your hand, to sniff, and dont pay alot of attention to him at this point..let him come to you. Keeping voice and hands always low, and patience under control. If you ever feel like your patience is going to get the best of you..end your session sooner, but on a good note, so you always go forward in your training and not back. Corinne

Yes it is very sad that he did not get use to humans and I really think that they roped him because he would run the fence and duck his head like he had been roped. I will keep everyone updated on his training and will also be putting up a picture of him along with the progress I have made. Yes I do have a 45' round pen but it has no shelter so I don't want him staying in that. He is currently in a 20 X 20 pen and we will be cutting that down this weekend to make it smaller. Kim

 

[ponyarab]

PROGRESS REPORT

Again thanks for everyone's advice on my new mini mule as I've slowed things way down. For the last 4 days I've knelt down outside of his pen where he likes to hang out the most. The first day I put his flake of hay in his pen and just sat there and talked to him, on the 2nd day I put the hay on the ground beside me then I knelt down and he came up toward me at the fence so I thought I would grab a handful of hay and see if he would take it from me and he did. I fed him a few more handfuls of hay then I put his flake in the pen and left him alone. I did the same thing the next day knelt down put the flake of hay beside me and again he came up to the fence (not close enough for me to touch his head but that is ok) and took the handful of hay that I offered him so again I fed him a few handfuls and then left. The next day when I came home from town and opened the gate he was talking to me in a very low voice like a tiny squeak so I am excited as we are both making progress.

Wednesday afternoon I went to his pen and knelt down without any hay and sat there talking to him he came towards the fence and just stood there looking at me and then I put a couple of treats in his feeder told him he was a sweet mule and walked away. I am going to get his pen cut in half over the weekend. Oh and I also talked to my vet about castrating mules and donkeys and he has had lots of experience doing them. I told them that he is pretty wild and they said that was ok and if I wanted to bring him in I could. I always castrate my animals by the moon signs and the best time was January 27th which I made an appointment for him but now I am thinking since we are making some progress I should wait until February to see how much more progress we can make......what does everyone else think?

Here is a picture of him.

 

[MeadowRidge Farm]

Mededith Hodges works with standard size donkeys, and mules. With the standard size you do have to be a little bit more aggressive. Think about this...do you realize how large you seem to a miniature when you are screaming, and yelling NO to him?? I am glad to hear you have slowed things down alot, now you will see progress.

 

[minimule]

Boy he's a stocky boy. I guess the "hormones" are building him up like a stallion would. Sounds like he's coming around pretty quick. They are very smart and he'll show you just how smart they are.

As far as the gelding......if the vet feels comfortable with it.......you'd still probably be OK to wait until next month too. At least then you might be able to move him around some to help heal without scaring him too much.