The Simple Life Farm
Well-Known Member
I totally agree.
I am sure you heard the same thing I did (by 3 different people that don't know eachother).
Measuring Proposal
- Thread starter Jacki Loomis
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I am sure you heard the same thing I did (by 3 different people that don't know eachother).
barnbum
Well-Known Member
As an ower of minis, and not one who shows, this topic--this determining height trouble is embarrassing. Why does it have to be such a difficult subjective issue?? Folks who are passionate about these animals forever argue about how tall they are at shows and how best to determine it. It's always a problem, and it's never been fixed! Gluing on hairs! Sewing in hairs! Good grief. Pick an objective method, gee--how all other horse people measure height seems like a good place to start--and make it law. Sigh....
See that was my thought too! This gluing on of hair has been going on ever since I started years ago. No surprise there. I would think it would be easy to spot of you are measuring them but apparently its not since its still going on?
Lisa I have seen what happens to people that protest especially at a National show. Its not pretty and this is why people rarely protest anymore. Not worth the stigma and the threats. Its VERY ugly how these people are treated.
I have heard of people adding hair before, so am not surprized that some goofballs are still doing it. Those people are the 'win at any cost' type people who dont care if they have to cheat to win. I personally think that for those caught doing that- they should be suspended from showing ANYWHERE for a year or any horses they own, etc...! And if they get caught again? They need to go find another breed to 'play with'. I think there needs to be some type of harsh punishment for this and maybe people will wake up.
It would not matter whether the horses were measured at the top of the withers or the last mane hairs if we didnt have those folks that continue to try to cheat (and obviously got by with it if the mane hair was found IN the arena) And it appears that there is no punishment for doing things like this, other than not being allowed to show that horse if caught.???
I am sure if the rules are changed, they will find another way to cheat..........
It would not matter whether the horses were measured at the top of the withers or the last mane hairs if we didnt have those folks that continue to try to cheat (and obviously got by with it if the mane hair was found IN the arena) And it appears that there is no punishment for doing things like this, other than not being allowed to show that horse if caught.???
I am sure if the rules are changed, they will find another way to cheat..........
There are lots of beautiful hard working people out there showing honestly who would never resort to any artificial or abusive means. These are the true horsemen who have my respect. They do the best they can and let the chips fall where they may and at the end of the day, they can sleep at night and their horse is happy.
The cheating is an insult and slap in the face to them. The ones that cheat in any way should be heavily fined and banned forever and names be made public.
The cheating is an insult and slap in the face to them. The ones that cheat in any way should be heavily fined and banned forever and names be made public.
The Simple Life Farm
Well-Known Member
You just might be shocked at the names on that list!!!!
bevann
Well-Known Member
I was not at the show so I can't say what went on but measuring at the national shows has been an issue as long as I can remember and I'm over 20 years in Minis.IMO a solution would be to have an outside company do the measuring.No one would know who it is until the day the measuring starts.Kinda secret like academy awards.Have our registries train these people in the proper procedure and go from there.It can't be any worse than what it is now.
Jacki Loomis
Well-Known Member
As a show person I tend to focus on the show aspect more than the breeding aspect of the horses but my perspective on measuring was broadened by my conversations with others while at Nationals.
In the opinion of some, the short term problem is taller horses showing. The long term problem and what I now see as a very important reason to come up with a solution is that new buyers will gravitate towards the horses who win in the show ring. They will purchase these horses and take them to shows next year expecting them to measure in, under different circumstances and with different handlers they may not measure in. They will also breed these horses and I worry if they will produce horses that will measure under 38". Are we setting these new owners up to fail?
Jacki Loomis
[email protected]
In the opinion of some, the short term problem is taller horses showing. The long term problem and what I now see as a very important reason to come up with a solution is that new buyers will gravitate towards the horses who win in the show ring. They will purchase these horses and take them to shows next year expecting them to measure in, under different circumstances and with different handlers they may not measure in. They will also breed these horses and I worry if they will produce horses that will measure under 38". Are we setting these new owners up to fail?
Jacki Loomis
[email protected]
midnight star stables
Well-Known Member
I'm not surprised to hear about the glued manes either. I've heard that before too.
It amazes me the number of "cheaters" there are, but the way I see it, is that it the responsibility of the Steward to make sure that my horse isn't being towered over by another in the ring! I shouldn't have to protest in fear if our Stewards didn't allow them there in the first place. I think Stewards need more TRAINING and more POWER! I think they should have the ability to strip showing rights or set finds or something. I also feel that measuring being videoed, is a good idea. It may always be an issue, BUT our horses key identity is their height... I think we should hold more importance on how well they are measured!
And I feel that if we do change where we measure, we will have to change our height! Period.
JMHO
It amazes me the number of "cheaters" there are, but the way I see it, is that it the responsibility of the Steward to make sure that my horse isn't being towered over by another in the ring! I shouldn't have to protest in fear if our Stewards didn't allow them there in the first place. I think Stewards need more TRAINING and more POWER! I think they should have the ability to strip showing rights or set finds or something. I also feel that measuring being videoed, is a good idea. It may always be an issue, BUT our horses key identity is their height... I think we should hold more importance on how well they are measured!
And I feel that if we do change where we measure, we will have to change our height! Period.
JMHO
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Mominis
Well-Known Member
Yes, Jacki. That is exactly how I feel. Being a newcomer to the AMHR horses, it is just dumb luck that I will be okay under the proposed new rules. My gelding measured 36.5", even under the strict measuring at Nationals. I am relieved to know that we'll be okay, but I know if I had not gotten quite so lucky with the height of both of my horses, I would be very discouraged. This is exactly the reason that I support the idea of allowing horses that currently measure in to go an inch to two inches over the 38" should we go to the new system. I feel that this should be done to protect people who may not have gotten as lucky as I have, just entering the world of the AMHR horse and may end up being pinched out, height-wise, before they really get started.
OhHorsePee
Well-Known Member
The minis have had cheater strips and gluing for as long as I have been showing. I have had it pointed out to me before. There is no way in blue blazes that anyone could not tell on the cheater strips! The cheater strips are just where they clip the horses with a long line of the coat to the lowest area.
It was so evident this year from the live feeds! I was on the phone with someone and it was quite evident by both of us.
Changing this rule will only help a few select people. All of the ones cheating will still be the ones cheating. The rules are not enforced now so why would it be any different?
It was so evident this year from the live feeds! I was on the phone with someone and it was quite evident by both of us.
Changing this rule will only help a few select people. All of the ones cheating will still be the ones cheating. The rules are not enforced now so why would it be any different?
I so agree!
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AshleyNicole
Well-Known Member
I agree, We have had minis for a few years and recently bought some horses to show for next year, one is on the borderline(did go to Nationals and measure in so not over) and I know I would be frustrated if the horse I bought to show now suddenly couldn't and any offspring he had would run the risk of not being able to show as well, I also think dishonest people always find a way to cheat and I agree that having harsher punishments for those that are caught is the only way we are going to discourage it.
If measuring at the withers really helps stewards get a more accurate measurement than maybe that should be changed but not without adjusting the heights accordingly.
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I pretty much thought I knew what square is!! But maybe the problem is, my being one of the witnesses, I did my best not to allow the horses to stretch nor splay the front legs out, nor crank their heads up in the air, nor touch or poke the horses back, nor lean on the horse, nor try to pull the horse forward or push the horse back as the stick was on the horse, nor dictate to the steward where the mane last hair was and WHAT CLASS THE HORSE HAD TO BE IN as many (Not ALL) tried to do and that is where the confusion started with them being told to stand square and keep their hands off the horse and allow the horse to hang its head naturel !!!! Maybe if the exhibitors/handlers/owners of these horses would be honest about the height of their horses, you would not be complaining about the stewards and the witnesses.
With the way the buzz was at the nationals, I am shocked we did not hear that complaint as we heard all the others. I personally would have welcome anyone coming to me and telling me their concerns.. I must admit I was not at the table for all the witnessing as I was a volunteer and did not have set hours to work... I came as a member/director to volunteer where I was needed.
I agree with the taping of the measuring, also no requesting a steward, I offer this suggestion for next year... red ball, blue ball, yellow ball in the box, you pick a ball (you can’t see what color your picking out of the box) whatever color you get is the steward who is that color for that day (steward picks a ball before starting to measure and will be that color for the day) and measures your one horse. You pick a color for every horse and I don't care if you have 10 horses, it would be pick of the draw as far as the steward who measures your horse... There were some who only wanted to go to one steward. The perception of that is way wrong while the other stewards sit and doing nothing. All this drama about the measuring, under themselves, stretched, way big and not one protest????????? Why is that?? Scared of the repercussions, not sure but sad to think one would be afraid to protest but again if we brought honest horses to be measured in. Would we have all the drama...
Also, do we really need to wait until the class is over???? I say post the height as the horses are being measured. You disagree with it, protest it, if it is your horse that measured out, under or over and you don’t agree with it, protest the measurement and get it re-measured by another steward. I say once you accept your measurement, you can be protested, none of this you have to go in the class crap or even be entered in the same class... One reason is, those who are eligible for championships have to complete with horses that were not in their original class. I say that is not fair that I cannot protest the height of a horse that I have to complete with in a grand class if you feel he is oversized for his age or class he entered to begin with. Let any owner or handler who has a horse entered in the nationals show be able to protest another horse that is entered in the national show... Boy would that clean up all these complaints that no one does anything about?
***My other idea that would really clean up the complaints is.. Of course start with horse standing square, everyone involved, steward, spotter, person bringing horse to be measured agree to last mane hair with no clue, thread or staples and horse is square.
The stick used to measure has no measurements on it... BLANK STICK.... Put stick to square horse.... witness that bubble is center, LOCK stick... Take BLANK stick to table where there is a stick that has MEASURMENTS ON IT. Lineup BLANK LOCKED stick next to stick with measurements on it. Now you have your measurement... Mechanically it could be designed to lay flush, even and precise. Now wouldn't that be playing Russian Roulette but I am sure people would bring honest horses to that blank stick to begin with?
We have used volunteer witnesses in the past, why this year such a big stink??? Out of all the people that exhibited, not one person came to complain about this with the exception of one person who did not think the one trainer & trainer/director should be there, they were not spotting the horses, they were just recording the measurements, after the one the complaint, they did not help out as it was no big deal to either person, they just thought they were helping out(as they did last year)as we had a big line of horses and all three stewards were measuring. THOUGH I feel anyone can watch the measurements. I am thinking we need a place to measure where we can sell admission passes for front row seating and donate the proceeds to the youth programs.
Seriously, I do believe we need to change the system somehow to make everyone all on the same playing field as many think it is not. We need to come to the convention at the general membership meeting this year, air these complaints and propose a new system to manage the measuring at nationals and congress. As a director/member who did not show but was at both the Congress and Nationals, I feel changes need to be made so that everyone can enjoy the shows and no drama.
Oh one more thing, I was confused at some of the minis showing parked out? What is that about? Where does it say mini's can park out? This is like a run away train with the parking out and no one seems to mind? If exceptable then change the rule below.
Page 250 B. The Miniature Horse is to be shown to its best
advantage. It is preferred that the horse stand square.
The Judge at his or her discretion may ask to have the
horse stand square, which means all four feet are flat
on the ground and at least one front and one rear
cannon bone perpendicular to the ground.
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fastrack
Well-Known Member
We went to our first National show 3 years ago as a spectator. What I saw then almost turned me completely away from showing. There was a huge horse in a 38" & Under class. My husband usually doesn't say much, but it was even obvious to him. His comment was the horse had to have been stretched from one end of the stall to the other to have gotten in at 38". He was a gorgeous horse...but didn't belong in a miniature show.
I think this year's measuring was fair. I didn't mind having others look on to make sure the horse wasn't stretched and was standing properly. We were rushing to the measurement area thinking we were going to be late, still had blankets and hoods on. Those in charge even cautioned us not to make the horses nervous, that they would 'grow' if they were nervous and afraid. Were told to take our time, they would measure when we were ready.
I do feel bad for those that were eliminated from competing. But, was it really a surprise? Surely there were at least some 'close' measurements in qualifying shows?
As far as measuring at the withers, I think that would cause more confusion in the long run. I'm sure the cheaters could come up with a method of cheating wither heights too.
I think this year's measuring was fair. I didn't mind having others look on to make sure the horse wasn't stretched and was standing properly. We were rushing to the measurement area thinking we were going to be late, still had blankets and hoods on. Those in charge even cautioned us not to make the horses nervous, that they would 'grow' if they were nervous and afraid. Were told to take our time, they would measure when we were ready.
I do feel bad for those that were eliminated from competing. But, was it really a surprise? Surely there were at least some 'close' measurements in qualifying shows?
As far as measuring at the withers, I think that would cause more confusion in the long run. I'm sure the cheaters could come up with a method of cheating wither heights too.
gvpalominominis
Well-Known Member
To answer the original question, it doesn't change my mind one bit. The measuring location needs to be a "structure" point of the horse. Be it the top of the wither or behind the wither... whichever. When 2 horses can be the exact same height at the top of the wither, standing exactly the same way... yet one horse's "mane hair" grows to behind the wither and the other one stops at the top of the wither, thus making the longer haired horse a mini and the other out of luck, that is unjust.
I think that makes it a "hair" registry... certainly not even a true "height" registry.
Last year before having my little under 32" stallion measured, (he wasn't clipped yet) I asked the measuring steward where she thought the last mane hair was.... she was off by about an inch and a half from the actual last hair... now that's from point A to point B... not height measuring difference, but would have determined he'd have to go into the taller class had I gone ahead with a measurement. I took him back to the stalls clipped him and returned to a different steward and had no problem measuring him in at 31.75" standing dead square from the last mane hair.
While standing in line (also last year), I witnessed several longer bodied horses being made to stand with their hind legs under themselves making the hocks sickle hocked looking.... but the owners/handlers were made to stand the horse's back legs even with their rump. You could see that the horses were visibly uncomfortable to stand that way. Of course they measured taller than they really were. So this issue is not just from this year.
All so called "cheating" aspects aside - the areas needed for education are:
Being able to determine where the last mane hair is. (Not all mane hair is necessarily "long" its a different texture)
What is standing square and is it determined by the horses body or
hock and or leg position?
I think that makes it a "hair" registry... certainly not even a true "height" registry.
Last year before having my little under 32" stallion measured, (he wasn't clipped yet) I asked the measuring steward where she thought the last mane hair was.... she was off by about an inch and a half from the actual last hair... now that's from point A to point B... not height measuring difference, but would have determined he'd have to go into the taller class had I gone ahead with a measurement. I took him back to the stalls clipped him and returned to a different steward and had no problem measuring him in at 31.75" standing dead square from the last mane hair.
While standing in line (also last year), I witnessed several longer bodied horses being made to stand with their hind legs under themselves making the hocks sickle hocked looking.... but the owners/handlers were made to stand the horse's back legs even with their rump. You could see that the horses were visibly uncomfortable to stand that way. Of course they measured taller than they really were. So this issue is not just from this year.
All so called "cheating" aspects aside - the areas needed for education are:
Being able to determine where the last mane hair is. (Not all mane hair is necessarily "long" its a different texture)
What is standing square and is it determined by the horses body or
hock and or leg position?
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horsefeather
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OK, as a steward, I can see that I have made at least one drastic mistake. While I will not let a horse stretch, I have let handlers set their front feet apart. I HONESTLY did not know that was illegal! Anyone reading this that go to shows I'll be stewarding at next year, take notice. I won't let anyone do that again. And, I apologize for allowing it. As for measuring the last hair of the mane, I don't think I know anyone (except perhaps the owner) that can get the 'exact' same measurement 3 times in a row (especially when the horse is moving around). (note to exhibitors, if your horse will stand still, it's MUCH easier to get a fair measurement). Now, I'm not talking about an inch, but it's not hard to be 1/2 in. different. Also, there are some driving horses that DO rub some mane out. I take that into consideration. Perhaps I shouldn't, but you can plainly see where the hair is missing and I will measure accordingly. It's usually not over 1/4 of an inch, but sometimes it does change the class the horse will go in. I drive a lot and realize this happens. Personally, I don't know how to stop it.
Also, at the shows where I steward, I put the pictures up on the wall or on the table of how the horse is to stand. It's the same for everybody. I have had people that are showing a shetland that's under 38" tell me they just can't stand that way. If they are showing that horse as a mini, that horse MUST stand like all the others, square. I try to be carefull about the front legs being under the horse and have told quite a few when I notice it that they need to bring their legs forward. Now, I really like being a steward. Most folks are friendly and I like helping anyone with questions or whatever, but let me tell youall something, I certainly don't do it for the money!! If you took what I make a day and divide it into the hours I spend at the show and after, doing paperwork, well, most people wouldn't work for that amount.
My biggest problem is that stewards do not measure the same. It's not fair for the exhibitors! I wish that the minis had started measuring at the withers, but again, as someone mentioned, I have had horses where their mane ended on top of the withers which really makes it taller than it is. I measured a horse once that I would have bet $100 it wouldn't measure in. Well, I would have lost my $100. Because of the conformation, this much taller horse actually measured in under 38" and since we ARE a height measurement registry, I had no choice but to let this horse show.
I know there are problems with mesuring, but I just don't know how to fix them. I DO however, like the idea of video taping all measuring at ALL shows! Personally, I think that would help some. OK, sorry I went on and on, but I kinda wanted to let you guys know that most of us stewards do try hard to be honest.
Pam
Also, at the shows where I steward, I put the pictures up on the wall or on the table of how the horse is to stand. It's the same for everybody. I have had people that are showing a shetland that's under 38" tell me they just can't stand that way. If they are showing that horse as a mini, that horse MUST stand like all the others, square. I try to be carefull about the front legs being under the horse and have told quite a few when I notice it that they need to bring their legs forward. Now, I really like being a steward. Most folks are friendly and I like helping anyone with questions or whatever, but let me tell youall something, I certainly don't do it for the money!! If you took what I make a day and divide it into the hours I spend at the show and after, doing paperwork, well, most people wouldn't work for that amount.
My biggest problem is that stewards do not measure the same. It's not fair for the exhibitors! I wish that the minis had started measuring at the withers, but again, as someone mentioned, I have had horses where their mane ended on top of the withers which really makes it taller than it is. I measured a horse once that I would have bet $100 it wouldn't measure in. Well, I would have lost my $100. Because of the conformation, this much taller horse actually measured in under 38" and since we ARE a height measurement registry, I had no choice but to let this horse show.
I know there are problems with mesuring, but I just don't know how to fix them. I DO however, like the idea of video taping all measuring at ALL shows! Personally, I think that would help some. OK, sorry I went on and on, but I kinda wanted to let you guys know that most of us stewards do try hard to be honest.
Pam
Minimor
Well-Known Member
Well, actually it doesn't say they can't be parked out. It says "preferred" that the horse stand square but then it also says the horse is to be shown to its best advantage. If the owner feels the horse looks nicest when parked out and the judge doesn't ask for anything different, it's not against the rule at all to stand the horse parked out.
IMO the stance described in the rule book isn't quite correct when saying that the hocks are to be in line with the back edge of the buttocks...that works for a horse that is perfectly correct in conformation. A horse that is camped out will be standing seriously under himself in order to achieve that stance. IMO the horse should be positioned so that the cannons of the hind legs are vertical. It would be a lot easier for the camped out horse to stand that way--and he would still technically be standing square. Stretched would mean that is cannons are angled forward from bottom to top. But, I suspect that the majority of people cannot recongnize camped out conformation when they see it and will never be able to see the difference between camped out conformation and stretched position.
disneyhorse
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Norlea...
I LOVE your idea about the "BLANK measuring stick."
At work, we have draft horses and when I measure them I always put the number side away from me so I can't see it and be biased about where I have the stick on their withers (since draft horses you always hope are TALLER than they might be).
I then always ask my coworkers to guess how tall the horse is! We then spin the stick around and get to see where the level landed!
I think it's a great idea.
Andrea
I LOVE your idea about the "BLANK measuring stick."
At work, we have draft horses and when I measure them I always put the number side away from me so I can't see it and be biased about where I have the stick on their withers (since draft horses you always hope are TALLER than they might be).
I then always ask my coworkers to guess how tall the horse is! We then spin the stick around and get to see where the level landed!
I think it's a great idea.
Andrea
disneyhorse
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I also want to add that I think getting worked up about measuring is not something I find important. I don't know why, but I don't see a big deal with tall horses, or horses measuring differently at different times.
They are living creatures, and just the fact that they have hooves which can be trimmed short, or with more heel, or left longer, can greatly affect the horses which are measured as accurately as 1/4 of an inch.
This year at Nationals, I see that two horses I previously owned and showed as mature driving horses were there. Both measured under or at 34" tall.
One rarely measured under 35" when I had him, and the other I got in a local club hoopla because he measured over 34" and then under 34" in the same year and I switched divisions (he is very borderline and can go either way depending on how you trim 1/4" of his foot). So both these horses have been shown plenty as Overs, and now are shown as Unders. No, they didn't "shrink" and I highly doubt some "shady measuring" was going on.
They are living animals. They move. They are not a piece of furniture with exact measurements.
No matter what solutions people come up with, no one will always be happy with the results.
Andrea
They are living creatures, and just the fact that they have hooves which can be trimmed short, or with more heel, or left longer, can greatly affect the horses which are measured as accurately as 1/4 of an inch.
This year at Nationals, I see that two horses I previously owned and showed as mature driving horses were there. Both measured under or at 34" tall.
One rarely measured under 35" when I had him, and the other I got in a local club hoopla because he measured over 34" and then under 34" in the same year and I switched divisions (he is very borderline and can go either way depending on how you trim 1/4" of his foot). So both these horses have been shown plenty as Overs, and now are shown as Unders. No, they didn't "shrink" and I highly doubt some "shady measuring" was going on.
They are living animals. They move. They are not a piece of furniture with exact measurements.
No matter what solutions people come up with, no one will always be happy with the results.
Andrea
