Horse Sedation with an Oral Gel (AAEP 2010)

[Marsha Cassada]

I am going to ask my vet about it. We are in porcupine country and all my horses have had ONE encounter. My youngest horse is due for his. They usually get 10-15 quills in their noses, sometimes a few in a hind foot. A product like this would be good to have on hand for situations like that.

 

[uwharrie]

Talked with my vet about this. Because we are in a rural area I would have to purchase 1/2 of her minimum order ( what she has to order) which would be five tubes. At $25 a tube it is much more costly than just using the injectable orally. ($105 a bottle)

 

[Eagle]

Please understand that I am not laughing at any of you but i do find all this funny. I do occasionally dope some of my show jumpers to clip but purely because they are about 1.90cm at the withers and when they have a tantrum they can be a danger to themselves and to ME but to tranquillize a mini to clip or bathe is totally unnecessary surely. I have one mare that is totally wild in all aspects and even after 5 years with me she hasn't chilled out much. To clip her in spring hubby holds her against the wall and I clip away, to do her head and eyes he just squeezes her nose. I would not feel comfy doing it any other way.

Saying that each to their own and live and let live

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

I used to make absolute statements like that... I learned that isn't always possible to assert

 

[happy appy]

Please understand that I am not laughing at any of you but i do find all this funny. I do occasionally dope some of my show jumpers to clip but purely because they are about 1.90cm at the withers and when they have a tantrum they can be a danger to themselves and to ME but to tranquillize a mini to clip or bathe is totally unnecessary surely. I have one mare that is totally wild in all aspects and even after 5 years with me she hasn't chilled out much. To clip her in spring hubby holds her against the wall and I clip away, to do her head and eyes he just squeezes her nose. I would not feel comfy doing it any other way.

Saying that each to their own and live and let live

I can't see how traumatizing the horse like that is proving a point about not sedating them.

 

[Eagle]

I don't see how holding and clipping for 30-40 minutes is traumatizing for a horse of 6 years old but whatever. As I said each to there own. I would prefer not to risk any possible side effects in a horse so small also because where I live there are no vets specialised in minis.

This is what I read about the risks. Sorry if it is a bit long

Do not use DORMOSEDAN GEL in horses with cardiovascular disease, respiratory disorders, liver or kidney diseases, or in conditions of shock, severe debilitation, or stress due to extreme heat, cold, fatigue, or high altitude. Protect treated horses from temperature extremes. As with all alpha2-adrenoceptor agonists, the potential for isolated cases of hypersensitivity, including paradoxical response (excitation), exists.

DORMOSEDAN GEL has not been evaluated in ponies, miniature horses, or horses younger than one year of age.

DORMOSEDAN GEL has not been evaluated for use in breeding, pregnant, or lactating horses.

Adverse Reactions

Clinical field study:

In a US field study of 270 horses sedated to facilitate completion of various veterinary and husbandry procedures, the following adverse reactions were reported in 202 horses treated with DORMOSEDAN GEL and 68 horses treated with placebo:

Table 2: Adverse reactions (number of horses) during the clinical field study

Clinical Sign

DORMOSEDAN GEL

N = 202

Placebo

N =68

Sweating

20

0

Penile relaxation

12

0

Bradycardia (≤ 20 bpm)

11

0

Second degree AV block

9

0

Frequent urination

9

0

Piloerection

4

0

Marked ataxia

3

0

Facial/oral edema

3

0

Hypersalivation

2

0

Nasal discharge

2

0

Flatulence

1

0

Muscle tremors

1

1

Epiphora

1

0

Pale mucous membranes

1

0

Swollen sheath

1

0

In a laboratory study, transient erythema of the mucous membranes was seen in 2 (of 8) horses that received the recommended dose of detomidine gel.

Mild ataxia (horse stable but swaying slightly) was observed in 54% of DORMOSEDAN GEL-treated horses and in 4% of the placebo-treated horses at 40 minutes post treatment administration. Moderate ataxia was observed in 25% of DORMOSEDAN GEL-treated horses (0% placebo) at 40 minutes post treatment. Moderate to marked ataxia continued to 90 minutes for 5% and to 120 minutes for 4% of DORMOSEDAN GEL-treated horses.

 

[wildoak]

I used to make absolute statements like that... I learned that isn't always possible to assert

Have heard all my life, never say never.....

Sedation is not my first choice, but it is on occasion, the safest and most expedient way for all involved.

While I do use patience whenever possible, I'd rather sedate the horse gently (usually a youngster) than take hours to try to get the job done the first time. If I need to sedate the first one or two times they are clipped, I find that by the second or third time they are clipped, sedation is no longer necessary

Absolutely. I have a 3 yr old now who is not an agressive mare and is very friendly, but for whatever reason she is terrified of things touching her hind legs and can be deadly with her heels as a result. Clipping her is obviously a test of patience and safety lol. I've done lots of desensitizing work with her and will continue, but in the interim there are times she has to be clipped, and if a little dormosedan helps get it done safely I'd rather have that option instead of forcing a battle she will never forget.

Jan

 

[valshingle]

As has been said, to each his own.

I'd also like to point out that sedation is also used to protect the horse from itself. Some horses in a panic will hurt themselves. Young miniatures have been known to rear up and go over very quickly.

And some of us don't have a strong man to hold a horse against the wall.

And some of us did spend years as a groom on the hunter/jumper circuit. Some (albeit very few) of those had to be sedated to even clip their legs. I know because one gave me a bloody nose, right in front of the vet, even after it had been sedated.

I'm not advocating that every horse be sedated in every situation, just that this product is a wonderful new tool that I have had a great experience with in miniatures.

 

[Sue_C.]

I have one mare that is totally wild in all aspects and even after 5 years with me she hasn't chilled out much. To clip her in spring hubby holds her against the wall and I clip away, to do her head and eyes he just squeezes her nose. I would not feel comfy doing it any other way.

I would think after all these years of owning her, that someone knowledgeable of horses would of been able to take time to reassure her, and work with her to get over this. Surely you should at least WANT her to trust you?? Yes, an hour of traumatization every six months/year or so IS going to make that difference, but because she is "just" a mini, you feel it is okay?

I haven't ever had to sedate a horse yet to work with it...large or small, but have learned in my lifetime of dealing with horses that one should never---say---never, and should always keep an open mind.

And, speaking of getting hurt with a mini? I recall years ago reading here...and seeing the pictures, of a woman who had a mini FOAL strike out at her while being clipped...and that front hoof went THROUGH her face under her bottom lip, taking out several of her front teeth as well. A good lesson to ALL not let the size of these guys fool you enough to MAKE a fool out of you.

 

[stormy]

I just have to comment, having clipped full size horses, arabs and hunters, seemed silly to tranquilize minis at first to me too but I tell you what, trimming the tummy and legs of a 28" stallion who doesn't want to be clipped is no laughing matter, those guys can turn inside out in mid-air and being all hunched over or down on one knee doesn't make it very easy to keep a hoof out of your ear! Usually with light sedation the first one or two times clipped, makes life a whole lot easier and though they may not break bones, it does save a lot of bruises (and a few cuss words!!

)

 

[Eagle]

I just have to comment, having clipped full size horses, arabs and hunters, seemed silly to tranquilize minis at first to me too but I tell you what, trimming the tummy and legs of a 28" stallion who doesn't want to be clipped is no laughing matter, those guys can turn inside out in mid-air and being all hunched over or down on one knee doesn't make it very easy to keep a hoof out of your ear! Usually with light sedation the first one or two times clipped, makes life a whole lot easier and though they may not break bones, it does save a lot of bruises (and a few cuss words!!

)

Very nicely put Stormy, with an explanation like that it makes one think

 

[txminipinto]

Just coming back to this topic to see all the hoopla over sedating horses for clipping, etc.

As a trainer and a Registered Veterinary Technician, let me share with you my experiences in sedating horses. As others have stated, sedation in this manner is for everyone's benefit when you have a fractious animal that does not want to partake in the activity. Is it better to work slowly (or not if you don't have the time but it needs to be done) with a horse and cause great anxiety over clippers or feet trimming? Or is it better to give the horse a sedative to calm its anxiety, to make it more willing, and to make the activity a more positive experience instead of wrestling the horse against the wall? I prefer to sedate horses who are anxious.

Case in point:

show shetland that was born and raised on our farm. Was imprinted and handled. Clipped at a very young age and HATED IT. Squeeled like a pig and pretty sure levitated so he could kick me with all 4 feet at once. 1st clip, we didn't sedate. 2nd clip we did. 3rd clip we did 4th clip we did. Yearling now....only sedated to do his head.....2 year old...only sedated to do his ears.....3 year old now..a well grasped twitch on his nose for his ears ONLY. He no longer needs to be sedated or twitched for anything other than ears because over time his anxiety over the clippers lessened with each positive experience. Sedation does not inhibit the learning process, but it does make it safer for everyone.

This isn't my only experience with clipping and sedation. Many horses that I have to sedate on the first clip to finish never have to be sedated by the end of the show season. I suppose if I had one horse and all the time in the world I could do it without sedation, but I don't know many people with that kind of time.

 

[Eagle]

Today I have to clip The crazy mare (lovely mare but hates the clippers) as I think I am an open minded person who wants to learn I have bought this product and I will try it out later. I will let you all know how it goes.

Wish me luck.

P.S hubby is abroad for work so I am alone

 

[wantminimore]

I haven't read all of the replies yet but I wanted to share my experience with it. I have 2 boarders here, a mother and son. The son is 3 yrs old and quite a bit smaller then his dam, they needed their teeth floated so the boarders vet was coming out to do it. When she went to sedate the dam she reared up and was striking out with both feet so the vet decided to give her the oral sedation and the little gelding got the shot. It took about an hour for it to kick in on the dam but it just about worked instantly on the gelding. When it did finally work it did what it was supposed to it just took a while.

 

[Sue_C.]

Safer than what? As far as I know, its as safe as any other sedative.

Sue: I e-mailed my Vet last evening after reading about this product, and his reply was that they (his office) opted to not have this on hand because of the potentially (human)improper usage he had been informed of. He did say, however, that they can easily make basically the same product with Dormosedan (detomidine).

Wait, so THIS product is dangerous, but he can make the same thing himself (same drug and everything) and its perfectly safe? Sounds like he just wants you to buy his product, not a competitor. This makes no sense at all. I'd question that doc then find a new doctor if his answer is the same. That's unacceptable.

No, he just doesn't want someone coming in and taking a tube home without his knowledge...he is perfectly willing to make it FOR me, and those others he trusts to be careful. I don't mind his being over-cautious...I KNOW some of the folks that would definitely misuse this product in a careless manner...then be all set to lay the blame at the Vet's feet should something go wrong.

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

*shrugs* I much rather a professionally manufactured and tested product than a homemade thing someone whipped up in their office. If he can't keep his office secured for this drug, how does he manage torbogesic, ketamine, and liquid detomadine? Torb and ketamine are both controlled substances, VERY prone to abuse and have an astronomical street value. If he can't keep tubes of paste safe, how can he keep deadly and highly abused drugs safe?

 

[uwharrie]

I guess I am lucky as my vet trust me to do right by drugs that are left in my care. We discussed the gel but due to the fact she is a small rural practice and she would have to purchase a box 10 tubes, I would have to buy 5 of them at $25 each to make it worth her ordering. We decided to stick with the liquid which I could purchase a small bottle for $105. ( seems the liquid has a longer shelf life as well) Chances are I will never use the whole bottle before it expires in two years, but it is nice to know I have it if I need it.

Human abuse of the drugs never came up in the conversation.

 

[drmatthewtaylor]

*shrugs* I much rather a professionally manufactured and tested product than a homemade thing someone whipped up in their office. If he can't keep his office secured for this drug, how does he manage torbogesic, ketamine, and liquid detomadine? Torb and ketamine are both controlled substances, VERY prone to abuse and have an astronomical street value. If he can't keep tubes of paste safe, how can he keep deadly and highly abused drugs safe?

Your answer is here..

We discussed the gel but due to the fact she is a small rural practice and she would have to purchase a box 10 tubes, I would have to buy 5 of them at $25 each to make it worth her ordering. We decided to stick with the liquid which I could purchase a small bottle for $105. ( seems the liquid has a longer shelf life as well) Chances are I will never use the whole bottle before it expires in two years, but it is nice to know I have it if I need it.

Money is never an easy thing to talk about and frequently Vets (myself included) may use another less powerful argument to explain our actions. In today's world drug manufacturers actually advertise to the general public before a new drug/preparation is brought to our attention or even available in the drug pipeline to create a demand. If your local Vet gets many requests for a drug then he/she will feel compelled to purchase it for their Clinic. And do realize Vets must buy the drug from the drug company, not the owner. We are the ones at risk of it going out of date, being damaged, or just never getting sold.

Pfizer could have added an oral dosage to the injectable preparation insert, but they chose not to. Why? Now they can sell 2 forms of the same drug. A Vet would have to carry the same number of injectable bottles as they did before and now carry another box of oral gel. Will the Vet make more money? No. Because you won't likely have more horses to sedate, but will be carrying more inventory. So the Vet will lose money.

I would encourage any animal owner to consider the business of Vet Medicine any time they fell like they were overcharged for a drug/service. Many drugs/services as provided at a loss, thus the profitable drugs/services must not only pay for themselves, but also the losses.

Dr Taylor

 

[Reble]

My vet said they would look into to getting this for me, if possible.

They want to know what it is called?

Do I just tell them gel with Detomidine? or what ?

thanks

 

[Nathan Luszcz]

Sue's vet didn't give that argument, they gave the argument of not being able to secure drugs in their office. I buy two doses of Arvac every year. It comes in a 10 dose vial, and is sometimes VERY difficult to get (and incredibly expensive, even for vets). If my vet doesn't need 10 doses, which they don't ever need, they just buy from someone in the area who DOES use that much. I've worked in vet clinics for years, I understand how they work. I also understand that I would never trust a doctor who used the excuse being discussed with me.