hooky necks

[hobbyhorse23]

I also agree. 99% of these have no hooks or "hinges"......just thrusted forward. That is not a hooky neck. But whatever........
Carol

But if that "hinge" is what a hooky neck is all about as I believe it is, then why are you guys bringing neck set into it? A high neck set is usually seen with a hooky neck because the two work together and enhance each other, but they are not the same thing. To me a "hooky neck" is one with a lot of length at the top, a clean throatlatch, and the look like the skull has been "hung" cleanly off the top of the neck like a fine pendant.

No, I don't see hooky necks on many of these horses (and am aware my own may be on that list) but I see no call to say so in such a way that it makes the rest of us feel like you are putting us and our horses down for sharing them.

And you wonder why people are afraid to post on this forum?

Whatever.

:

Leia

 

[Jill]

I'd rather have a few people afraid to post and a lot of people learning than just a bunch of touchy feely stuff. I followed and agreed with what Carol / Vertical Limit said and I do know her to be a wonderful mentor and very knowledgable.

:

 

[user 488]

Well, first of all I am not the person who brought this up. There were others.....but I will be the Forum villain for voicing my opinion. A high set neck is NOT the same as a hooky neck and you can have a high set neck that is straight as a board. Not one bit of shape what so ever.

IN NO WAY was I putting down anyone. I just stated my opinion. There are MANY nice long necks on this thread, and a number of nice shapey necks..........and after all.......this was not LET'S SEE YOUR LONG NECKS.........it was LET'S SEE YOUR "HOOKY" NECKS.

And thank you Jill. You know I will go out of my way to help anyone and to explain what I know. I have never put anyone down. I and many find it the other way around. When someone comes on here and wants to give you a different "insight" then they are the one's that get put down. And that is why there are people afraid to post.

But please......don't get off topic. Just post whatever you think a hooky neck is as it's not "arms and legs"

And it really doesn't bother me one bit.

Whatdoiknow

:

 

[Jill]

Ah... and look at Carol's avatar. Yeah, I'd say she's got some worthwhile insight! Necks are something on which my opinion has been greatly influenced by Erica and Carol.

 

[Jill]

This will probably be appreciated by only myself.

Do any of you remember the Seinfeld episode about the ugly baby? Like, what do you say about an ugly baby? "That's a baby."

.

.

.

We sure can see some necks, in several varities. Yep. That's a neck.

And as far as people being afraid to post, if they are confident that they see what they say they see in their horses, why would they care if another doesn't agree?

 

[disneyhorse]

Many conformation issues are not black-and-white. I think this could be a good thread for people to learn about specific neck conformation... one is not worse than another, it is very subjective and each neck "type" may have a different use. I also agree MOST of these necks are not "hooky" but just plain long. Necks can be long, short, thick, thin, or hooky... and the neck can be set high or low... and the head can be hung on the head different ways.

I am going to show you horses with GOOD necks but have very different conformations...

Here is a percheron horse with a shorter, thicker neck and NO "hookiness" but it is set high (photo from Pennwoods Percherons):

Here is a classic Shetland with a long, thin neck and not "hooky" (but might be if baited differently) but set high (photo from KM Stables):

Here are two Arabian horses that have a "true HOOK" to their neck... their neck is set high yet the neck naturally arches out forward too and has shape to it:

Just remember an ARCHED neck is NOT a HOOKY neck. Guess that's the root of what some people are trying to say.

Here is my own personal miniature filly, she does NOT have a hooky neck. It's not set super high nor low, it is not a thick neck, but see how it doesn't hook? She can "arch" it when she's blowing noses with a strange horse or something but when she's just set up it's not arched or hooky. I hope any of these pictures help illustrate something about neck conformation.

Andrea

 

[nootka]

Interesting how this topic has evolved and I thought it just might, considering it is somewhat subjective as to whether it "is or isn't" what was asked for/described.

Just the same as the "Arab head" can go every direction.

I don't know about the horses I posted, I have my doubts, but I think for Miniatures they have it, maybe not the most extreme, and for SURE nothing like what a beautiful Arabian or NSH/Saddlebred might have....

Also the pic I had of the gelding didn't really show it. Mouse has it, too. It is, to me, similar to what Leia explained, and it starts with a clean throatlatch, then there is a sort of a forward extension from there.

I guess it's going to be subjective forever, but the thing is, that yeah, I see a lot of really "not" necks posted or advertised as such. Not picking any one or other, as I know sometimes photo angle is hard to determine a "yes or no" for me, even on some that I KNOW have it.

Liz

 

[Minimor]

I was thinking it but wasn't going to be the villain that actually said it! It is good to know that I wasn't the only one thinking it anyway--I was starting to think I was too fussy on the meaning of hooky necks.

We had one mare that truly had a hooky neck--we never got many photos of her though & only one that showed the hook, sort of--it wasn't a great photo overall--she's been sold. Otherwise we have some nice necks, but not truly hooky.

We used to see lots of hooky necks in the Morgan show horses, and more I think in the Arabians--Minis for the most part aren't quite there yet.

I don't think anyone should get mad because someone mentions most of the pictured necks aren't hooky--it's not meant as an insult in any way--a neck can be a very, very nice neck even if it's not hooky. I'd also think many people would like to have that pointed out & learn from it, so they know what the term they are using really means.

I guess "hooky" is subjective, all in the eye of the beholder, just as are "pretty" and "true Arabian in miniature" and all the other flowery terms used in advertising. How often do you read the description then look at the photo & think "NOT"?

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Disneyhorse: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

You posted excellent examples of the necks in question. Good points and well-stated! Thank you.

There are MANY nice long necks on this thread, and a number of nice shapey necks..........and after all.......this was not LET'S SEE YOUR LONG NECKS.........it was LET'S SEE YOUR "HOOKY" NECKS.

Actually, not to be too obnoxious

: but Attwoode asked:

I'm looking for pictures of long hooky necks.

:lol:

Sorry, I'll stop now.

:

Yes, Vertical Limit and Erica both walk the walk. Their horses are gorgeous and definitely have hook, no question about it. And that's great.

Minimor said:

I don't think anyone should get mad because someone mentions most of the pictured necks aren't hooky--it's not meant as an insult in any way--a neck can be a very, very nice neck even if it's not hooky. I'd also think many people would like to have that pointed out & learn from it, so they know what the term they are using really means.

I agree. I was also thinking some of the horses pictured did not have any kind of a neck at all, really, but I wish the conversation had continued in a civil, questioning, "let's discuss what 'hooky' means" vein as Lyn started it. Many people like me only have one or two horses to post and share them because we love them, not because we truly think they're the best example in the world of a hooky neck. So it's a little unfair to tear us down for posting them instead of asking, for instance, "So so-and-so, what do you think constitutes a hooky neck? Can you explain why you feel your horse is a good example of one? Let's talk about this!"

The internet is a funny thing- it isn't the opinion someone has so much as the way it is stated that will cause a reaction.

So- anyone want to try and define a hooky neck so we can talk about this?

Leia

 

[user 488]

I was thinking it but wasn't going to be the villain that actually said it! It is good to know that I wasn't the only one thinking it anyway--I was starting to think I was too fussy on the meaning of hooky necks.

I don't think anyone should get mad because someone mentions most of the pictured necks aren't hooky--it's not meant as an insult in any way--a neck can be a very, very nice neck even if it's not hooky. I'd also think many people would like to have that pointed out & learn from it, so they know what the term they are using really means.

AWWWW! Minimor.....that's OK. I don't mind playing that part

especially if it starts people "THINKING"! And I assure you that you were NOT the only one thinking it!

I sit back and thank GOD that I didn't get my panties in a wad every time I thought I was being criticized, because it really wasn't criticism. I certainly have not gotten where I am today because I didn't listen to people who really knew more than I did and actually soaked it in and learned from it.

This Forum is here to learn and if people are afraid to post things that aren't a googly sweet and sugary then nobody has learned a darn thing. I am just going to tell it like I see it. And shame on anyone who accuses people of trying to help. The highlight of my day, I assure you, is not to come on this forum and be nasty. No insults were intended and sorry if it hit a nerve. But again, sometimes a nerve has to be hit to make a point.

Thanks Disney as your pictures show what words cannot. And Nootka, I agree that you cannot compare these minis to Arabs (duh.....imagine that) or saddlebreds, or morgans, NSH, etc. But there are some Minis on here with wonderfuls necks. And I am sure they will become even better through many selective breeding programs.

Many people like me only have one or two horses to post and share them because we love them, not because we truly think they're the best example in the world of a hooky neck. So it's a little unfair to tear us down for posting them instead of asking,

See Leia, that's the thing. Nobody was tearing you down. It was just merely stated that not all horses posted had hooky necks. You made the assumption that things were directed at you. They were not.

And again, this is a learning thing. And instead of coming on the Forum and accusing me, or Lyn or whoever of tearing you down, you could have just asked for examples........or emailed me privately. You and I of all people have a lot in common. A love for the Arabian horse. We have a lot to share. I would never make you feel I was tearing you down. Atleast not intentionally. And I invite you to email me anytime you like to discuss whatever you want. I don't bite.............promise.

:

 

[kaykay]

for sure one of the hardest things to learn in showing is how to present a horse with a hooky neck. Its not nearly as easy as it looks lol.. Some horses have one but the handler cant present it. Some horses couldnt do it no matter what as the neck just isnt conformed to do it. I think its even hard to EXPLAIN it to a newer handler. we talked about this a month or so ago and its very frustrating to convey in type. You really have to see it to understand it. Sometimes you get lucky and get a horse that knows how to use its neck and has a hooky neck LOL. Now imo one of those horses is Crunch. I dont care if no one on the forum agrees with me because he has proven himself over and over in the show ring and thats the opinion that counts LOL. And i have thick skin

I wish people wouldnt take their pictures down though. Just remember its just an opinion!!

Heres crunch playing around and hooking his neck on his own (yes he was underweight this was before i got his weight up where it should be)

and here he is in better weight and im just about to set the hook in his neck. wish she had gotten one more pic after the neck is set keep in mind if i just stretched his neck straight you wouldnt see the natural curve and hook. The people i know call it "working the neck" vs "rubbernecking" Notice his nose is not straight up in the air or stretched straight vertically.

 

[brookhaven]

Amen, Leia. Well said. Opinions are opinions and some seem stated probably more harsh than they are intended, but discussion and examples are what are looked for in the end.

That being said, I will, with trembling fingers add my opinion...

I think "hookiness" is an attribute of a horse and is more prevalent in one with a well set on neck with good length. The "hook" is just behind the poll and is enabled or enhanced by a thin throatlatch. I doubt you will see many horses standing at ease in a stall, pasture or run-in shed, hooking their neck. When they do "hook" it is a sign of alertness or inquisitiveness. The horse that shows in halter must be alert and show interest in the trainer...that's when the "hook" appears, that's what catches the judges attention. It is, in the end, the "presence" of the horse...the attitude, the alertness and willingness to explore that makes the horse more appealing...the "hookiness" just adds to the presence.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

You made the assumption that things were directed at you. They were not.

Nope, I promise you I was not actually taking it personally.

: I KNOW what my horses do or don't have and I am not offended by the truth either way. In this case I was getting defensive (yes, and getting my panties in a wad) over the presumed hurt feelings of others with whom I feel brotherhood on this forum. When people are pulling pictures on a non-critique thread, something is wrong.

I do appreciate your experience and the fact that you are willing to share it Carol, I really do.

: I just don't think it's being "sugary sweet and googly" to phrase things in a way that invites people to think instead of making them defensive. Nobody learns well in a hostile environment!

Anyway, no offense taken. I was simply stating my opinion the same way you were.

Leia

P.S.- I think Crunch has a very hooky neck! I've always loved him.

:

 

[attwoode]

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to post their pictures. Let's not get to critical of the pictures they post. If anybody doesn't like what someone posts then just move on to the next picture or a different thread. There is no need to have to disagree about something as subjective as the hookiness of a neck. I'd like to keep the thread going and see more photos - so let's all be nice. I have yet to see a picture that I didn't enjoy. Thanks.

 

[kaykay]

i love seeing everyones horses!

Leia thank you so much for the compliment! Fran needs to come post pics of Crunchs son. I was so happy to see that CRunch can reproduce his neck

Carol is one of the nicest most helpful people you guys will ever know. But shes also very honest and doesnt sugar coat her opinion.

That is the spice of life. That we are all different

:

minimom i know for a fact you have outstanding horses!! I didnt see the pictures you took down but I wish you would put them back

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]What I stated way back in this thread I still hold fast. MOST of the pictures here were of long not hooky necks some not even particularly good clean long necks. Carol is right and I will be flamed here again. WE need not to take up for the people we THINK will be offended when we dont know that they were. Some of us, Carol, myself and some others have been recipients of ugly pms and e mails when we try to clearly and susinctly give critiques or try to teach. Thats the whole point of this form. I have been accused of belittleing others when all I did was give an honest critique so , I dont often do them anymore. I do private ones when asked but that doesnt benefit the mini comunity as a whole then does it. Bruce tells me all time I need to sit on my hands more and that may be true. It makes those of us who have been breeding for 30 years and showing for as many not just minis but other breeds as well feel like we are being persecuted for tying to educate. Perhaps our language comes across as strong and opinionated because mincing words doesnt do anything but take up space. Some days I feel like yelling ," Do y'all want to learn something or not!" I have been condemed by some for chasing the almighty ribbon.... the reason I go and show is to make sure what I am breeding and teaching IS WHAT IS RIGHT. Its not just one persons opinion it is the opinion of many that we do know whereof we speak. We could just not coment anymore or just say to everyone, pretty horsey and let you go and spend the money to show and be disapointed and say, Why didnt anyone tell me?........ If that is the general consensus of opinion then our posts will get less and less and dissapear. Wont be any skin of our noses....We will keep on keeping on. Sorry to have hijacked the thread attwoode..... just relaying some private conversations tonight here.[/SIZE]

Lyn

 

[user 488]

Thanks Kay! You know me well. :lol:

Many of you email me because they can count on an honest opinion. I will continue to be honest and help people to the best of my ability.

And speaking of CRUNCH Kay! I think it's time for a chocolate bar..............

HEY LIZ..........N E S T L E S......Nestles makes the very best! :saludando:

 

[kaykay]

hi lyn!

i think the difference here is this is NOT a critique thread. See what I mean?? No one asked if anyone agreed that these horses are hooky necked. And I dont think anyone who posted pics asked "is this a hooky neck" So I think thats what we have to be careful of. I know its hard!! But I am trying really hard not to give my opinion unless someone speficially asks for an opinion. I no longer do critique threads either unless its my own horse. Just not worth the hurt feelings, mad emails etc.

Carol you crack me up!! i just read that after i posted. almost spit out my ice tea

and liz i think lark wants to live here

 

[user 488]

You know Kay......you are right! It wasn't a critique. And I do understand what you are saying! However, my only thoughts were in hopes of educating. You of all people know that I have probably NEVER gotten on any critique threads. Not worth hurting feelings for sure. Infact, you rarely see me post.

Hummmmm.......my fingers are sure walkin' tonight. :new_rofl: :new_multi: :new_multi: :new_multi:

Maybe it was the LARGE DUNKIN DONUTS coffee I just drank.........and now CHOCOLATE. God help the Forum! Maybe I better sign off. :new_shocked:

 

[lyn_j]

[SIZE=14pt]Hi Kay, Yes I know this wasnt a critique thread and I really wasnt trying to turn it in to one. I was just concerned that people didnt understand WHAT a hooky neck was because what they were posting for the most part were NOT hooky. I wasnt critiquing anyones horse in particular. Just pointing out that the pics were not that. Rather several were not that. Some of us were talking privately about being told we were too hard on folks. Thats why I guess I got defensive myself and figured I ought to speak for us. Probablly should have just sat on my hands.[/SIZE]

Lyn