Having a Dilemma myself....

[Robin]

You know- I just don't like to wake up Saturday morning to read the bashing of a BNF. I am really just tired of all the name calling, accusations, assumptions and placing blame when people just don't have a clue!

I am not going to post, but will happily e-mail anyone that wants to see the correspondence regarding this situation between the owner of the dam at time of service and the big name farm! The entire problem resulted in that the seller of the mare did not give the BNF a breeders certificate for the potential foal! Not thinking anything of it since the mare was not near close to foaling- the BNF waited to even see if a live foal was born or one worth registering before asking for it. Yes- a colt was born-so- I asked for a signed breeders cert, sent pictures of the foal and mare to the new owner and requested more information on the sire of the foal--- since I didn't even know the sire's name. She even asked to buy the foal, in which I priced him to her..... hmm acts like now she isn't sure it is the "right" horse.

Hmm, Hmm, Hmmm- so who is at fault? I still am at fault, because I sold a colt on application before I had the breeders cert in my hand from the owner of the dam at time of service, even though in an e-mail she said it was sent. Actually this is the first that I heard of the situation since the dam owner said she would sign the forms..... WOW! Thanks a ton for all the DRAMA! Hmmm- I didn't know until NOW that the dam owner has decided to have a vendetta against myself, mother and Buckeroo and was publicly going to smear us!

So- my dilemma- defend myself, air the whole story, tell someone publically that they didn't do what was right? Make them look bad? Sorry that is just usually is not my style and not the way I do business. I prefer to be honest, upfront, going above and beyond to fix the problem and confronting things head on with whoever it may be- BNF or not.

So- some insight would be nice from all you people who assume you know how everything is done and should be done by those BNF's. You know 9 out of 10 times us BNFs aren't the ones causing the problems- we are just the ones it is easy to point the finger at. They can take it- their a Big Name Farm! Well let me tell you something...... we are just people. Everyday people. The kind that work for a living. The kind that have kids and families. The kind that try to help others when they are in need. The kind that stands up and defend those that get taken advantage of. The kind of people who strive to teach and educate and share our experiences and knowledge. You know- next time you want to pick on or accuse a BNF about something- why don't you call up the owners. You know their names, you have their numbers. They are just people after all.

These public forums aren't the place to air your dirty laundry. It is one thing to ask for advice, information, help, education etc. But next time you have a problem with a BNF- just put their name out there- it's not like the people who are reading don't already know who you are talking about. Or is it because you are worried about Slander- because you really didn't have a reason to complain to begin with???

Sorry for the ranting. My kids are calling and would like Mommy to quit working and eat breakfast with them. If only they knew I am not working - I am defending my livelihood and their life too!

Robin-LKF

 

[Minimor]

Hmm, Hmm, Hmmm- so who is at fault? I still am at fault, because I sold a colt on application before I had the breeders cert in my hand from the owner of the dam at time of service,

I would say that pretty much sums it up.
I would never offer a colt for sale until I had all the paperwork in order.

Actually I don't believe in selling any horse until it is actually registered, nor will I buy any that aren't actually registered and in the name of the seller.

 

[Robin]

Yep- your right- I am going to go look up the buyer of the colt and send them their money back today. They can keep the colt or return it if they want. Mind you- they haven't contacted me yet of a problem. And this is all because the actual breeder of the mare and owner of the stallion won't sign the paperwork. I guess she had full intentions not to sign it for me from the beginnning- whether I sold him or not? The colt that was so nice in her eyes, that she wanted to buy back now isn't worth registering. Wow- that's a great way to do business!

 

[Becky]

As an owner and breeder of miniature horses since 1989, I've seen my share of paperwork nightmares. It doesn't matter if you are a BNF or a LNF, paperwork is still the responsibility of those that breed, own and sell no matter who you are.

There are still (and I hope will continue) to be many new buyers out there. It's imperative that we make their buying experience pleasant and easy especially when it involves paperwork. Registering and transfers can appear to be really complicated to a new owner and if the paperwork isn't correct, then 9 times out of 10, those buyers will not complete their paperwork and the horses will go as unregistered or not transferred.

It's up to all of us to do our paperwork in a timely manner to keep this industry running as this affects every one of us.

 

[Songcatcher]

In my opinion (for what little it is worth), a sale/transaction/deal (or whatever else you want to call it) should be between the buyer and the seller, and not require the buyer to go back in history to get what they were promised. If the seller did not get what they thought they were getting when they made the purchase/trade, they should not pass it on as though everything is in order when it is not.

By the way, is there only one big name farm out there? I would hate to have to count the number of threads/posts that bash small farms.

Hope everyone involved can work this out to their satisfaction.

 

[~Lisa~]

Guess I do not see the tragedy either way it is not a unfixable problem someone has the ability to sign the paperwork and send it all in and issue is solved.

Either way paperwork slips sometimes honestly I have a stallion I have had him for a while and was going to wait and transfer when I did another horse.. well guess what I totally forgot all about it and never remember till I read a post like this LOL (so perhaps they are helpful to someone) I think I have had him well at least a year but you know what life happens, I have a kid to raise, a job to do, my health to deal with and other horses and like most everyone else some months am struggling to stay afloat. Does that make me a horrible person and a horrible farm even though i am a small name farm? To some yep -some thrive on that kinda stuff but heck the horse is here - he is healthy- has all his needs met (short of being able to breed a mare) so not a tragedy IMO

Sometimes paperwork slips thru the cracks while we all live our lives- yep I could be more on top of my own and I am not breeding anymore but hey mistakes happen this should be the worst thing I ever do in life.

Again no one but 2 know the entire story but seems to me the registered owner of the dam and breeder of the foal can solve this whole situation pretty easily by PQing the baby they bred and signing the paperwork and everyone will be happy.

It never seems to work when a bad sale or bad deal (in one parties eyes) is aired on a forum hearing one side of the story it is easy to think someone is right- hearing the other side makes you wonder and what lies in the middle well in reality it is no ones business but theirs

 

[HGFarm]

Well, if the mare was sold to the BNF, or any farm for that matter, and was already bred at the time of sale to that farm, then as the seller of the mare at the time, I would not have a problem signing the breeders certificate or whatever paperwork was required that I overlooked at the time the mare was sold!!! I hope the mare was included on said necessary stallion report as well?! Is there a question on who the mare was bred to?

I also dont see that it is unfixable and is the responsibility of the seller of the mare to get the paperwork together that should have gone with her. That would solve the whole problem it seems.

I do agree that it is easy to overlook paperwork and details at times, but then as the seller of the foal from that mare, I would have made sure that all paperwork was there before selling him.

Sure hope it can all be straightened out in a nice manner, as the previous mare owner is responsible for who that mare was bred to and the paperwork during that timeframe, no matter who owns her now, or who the foal was sold to. It is not fair to the buyer of the mare, nor to the folks who now own the foal, not to get the paperwork straightened out by the original seller of the mare.

 

[Ellen]

I don't really think it matters wether you are a big name farm, or a small farm. Papers are our responsibiliy, as the sell to have in order. I understand where you are coming from. We purchased a stallion from you and he is awesome, I have no complaints.

But sometimes I think, the BNF, can do more damage to Small Farm. Not that that is your intention, and if the farm in question is threatning, and listened to NONE of your advice and is already raking you thru the coals, then you have to do what you have to do.

I just hope it works it self out quickly and quietly for you. I know how hard it is!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

It makes absolutely no difference who you are or how big or small your business. Top class animals still come from small enterprises, and they have the same responsibilities as a BNF.

We can only comment on the information given.

It would be really, really nice to, just for once. get the correct information the first time round.

On the original information given it was, in no way, the responsibility of the seller of the mare to sign the papers, and I would not have done so unless I had had some sort of agreement, verbal or written , that I would.

Once you have sold an animal it is no longer your responsibility, it becomes the responsibility of the buyer.

Whilst I would always want to work with someone who had bought any of my stock, if (and it is a big IF) I had supplied the animal with all necessary paperwork I would not sign papers that required me to say I was the owner of a mare I no longer owned.

That is obviously the responsibility of the purchaser of the mare to sort out.

 

[sfmini]

Hi Robin, I just read that thread, it does leave one confused and in my case irritated for your situation

. I am sure you would work with the parties involved to correct the problem, and I don't understand the need to bash you and your farm.

The good news is that you did have some supportive posters on the thread and that was good to see. Not an all out bloodletting like usual.

This is when I am more than happy that we are not a BNF, having taken a beating as a director, at least my time on that is limited and will end in February for me.

Sad to say there will still be people out there waiting to bash away at you. They seem to think you live on easy street, but I know you and your mom have worked hard to get where you are now, and work hard to stay there. I clearly remember you and your family from the early days back in the 80's when you all worked together to get those horses groomed and then you showed them yourselves.

Now, turn your computer off and go play with your kids.

 

[Katiean]

It sounds like to me that because they weren't sure that the mare was in foal they did not include her in the stallion report. Don't want to pay the fees and sign the papers. Which to me would be w really dumb thing for them. I did my stallion report and included a mare that with U.S. was not pregnant. Just in case we missed something since she was with the stud too.

It really bugs me when people won't sign papers. I think AMHA should do like AKC and if both parents are registered you MUST sign registration papers or face problems with the registry. I think that would at least slow down the "No, I am not signing the papers" problem. What is it to them anyway? I mean unless the foal was a dwarf or only had 3 legs or maybe his head is where his tail should be. What is the big harry problem with very nicely signing the papers like a decent person?

And Rabbit, if you bred the mare and then sold it you as the breeder SHOULD sign a breeding certificate even if you think she may not be pregnant or send one when foal is born. There is always DNA and parent qualifying to prove it is your stallions foal.

 

[Robin]

I guess from being in this my entire life I don't see the relevance some people put on certain points and make them ethical dilemmas. Some things are just common sense and good business practices. Giving people the benefit of the doubt, understanding things get overlooked and having other things take priority in life - doesn't make someone a bad person. Okay- so the mare was sold but not transferred yet. Do you know how many horses come into this farm on their way to new owners that are still in the sellers name and not yet in the buyers name waiting for pictures etc, but yet the mares deliver their foals here? So who should sign the papers?

See - every instance has a different reason or purpose or situation. No one should assume everything goes according to plans or sold/purchase dates or due dates or whatever. Just because the mare wasn't transferred before the foal was born at a location different then the previous owner's farm, doesn't mean the foal should not be registered.

I appreciate everyone who has posted and "seen the light" that not everything always goes according to plan and it doesn't mean that intentional harm or falsehoods were done. And as many of you have stated- this is very simple to fix. The horse in question is a very wild marked overo or some sort/medicine hat colt. His markings are very distinct. So its not like we really have any confusion over the actual horse. It is simply the person doesn't want to sign due to a simple error in dates and a stubborn mind. It doesn't cost the previous owner a red cent to sign their name and remedy this minor error. It doesn't mean they are the owner. They have no responsibility as seller - there was no purchase agreement between them and the new owner of the colt. It is a simple signature in order to agree that the said mare was owned by them at time of service and even time of foaling (according to what the Assoc has as record) and that the foal can have papers saying as such. The whole point that gets me is I guess even if I haven't sold the colt and I was the one sending in the registration, would she sign for me knowing the problem with the dates and transfer timing? What is the difference? It really doesn't change anything about the quality of the animal, the pedigree, the breeder's name who crossed the sire and dam, the future of the colt as a show horse, breeding stallion or pet. I so hope we can get this signed and over with and move on to more positive thoughts. If PQ is necessary so be it because I know for certain that foal came out of that mare. It is just a shame that someone would require all that be done, when she already knows that is the same horse she tried to buy because it was out of her stallion.

Anyway- thanks again for all your input. I agree it doesn't matter who you are big farm or small farm- amateur or professional, when someone is out to ruin you they will try however they can. It is up to the true, honest and professional people to see above that and look for the positive things in life. If I constantly thought in the negative and how I could hurt someone that I didn't like or that I thought was doing something wrong- I would be miserable. Life is too short.

Thanks again.

Robin-LKF

 

[Minimor]

I'm not sure why anyone would expect the original seller to provide signed paperwork for the foal. For sure she should provide the breeding certificate...that should really go with the mare when she is sold IMO, and of course the stallion report should be properly signed & filed with the registries. If the stallion report and/or the breeders certificate haven't been provided, they should be sent ASAP to the buyer of the mare, and from there the mare can be transferred and the proper owner can register the foal & provide paperwork for that foal to his new owner.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Robin, whilst I understand that things get overlooked as easily on a big farm as a small I also understand that, as a seller, I have a responsibility to make sure the animal is as I represent it, and not rely on the previous owner to become part of the picture.

I would not, as the previous owner of the mare, sign papers that state, quite clearly, that I am the owner of the mare. Sorry, that is the way I feel. I would, and have in the past, do everything in my power to get the situation sorted out for everyone, and to everyone's satisfaction, but it is not my responsibility to do so.

I can feel the exasperation in your posts but, Robin, it is you, as I understand it, who has dropped the ball, why you should be getting exasperated is totally beyond me.

This is not me taking a pop at you, btw, I could do that any day I had a reason to (and have never had a reason to, I might add) without recourse to this forum!

I did not see anyone baying for blood on the other thread, I did not see anyone taking the chance to take a pop at the big breeder.

I did not know, until you posted, that it was you involved.

My advice , on the information I was given, remains the same.

I do not care who you are or that you may or may not have BNF "status".

I gave my advice on the information given and you could be the Queen of England, my advice would remain the same.

Life, I assure you, is far too short and far too full to bother about someone's assumed status , before giving out advice.

 

[ruffian]

As Robin said - yes, she is at fault for not making sure the papers were in place before letting the colt go. But reading this thread, and the initial one, I am so proud of those who have never made a paperwork error, who never sold a horse on application fully intending that the papers would be forthcoming, who have bought a mare that was "open" but ended up with a foal on the ground . . . oh wait, that happened to ME!

I bought a mare ADVERTISED as open. 9 months later I've got a colt on the ground. He wasn't RIGHT next to the mare when I found him, about 10 feet away. There were other mares in the pasture. Hmmmm which would it be?? The seller didn't know the mare was bred, but did not hesitate to send the DNA information in or to provide the breeder cert. There wasn't any question about "HEY IS IT EVEN THE RIGHT HORSE." I'm not going to say who was the orignal seller, but it was a BNF!! OMGABNF!!!

This is a great forum, but I am getting really irritated at those who are bored, ignorant, or just plain mean to those who have a significant place in the miniature horse world and history. What is that issue?? Jealously?? The fact the LKF and Buckeroo have made such an impact on the breed and industry as a whole?? Can they not make a mistake without it being blasted and castigated?? Come on people!

I've been to LKF 3-4 times. Every time we have been treated like an honored guest/good friend. Even the very first time. We are not a BNF. I have 19 horses. I've been in business for 20 years. I will NEVER get to the level of LKF. Does that mean I don't make mistakes or does it mean I get a little slack when I do. Have I ever made mistakes? Absolutely! I just sent an AMHA registration form to AMHR with my AMHR paper. So right now the filly in my barn isnt' registered and I have no paperwork on her. OMG!! Have I had issues with BNF's? Absolutely. Believe me there is a BNF I would NEVER do business with because there was no attempt to fix an issue that was much more serious than this. It took months and months and a lawyer to get the situation resolved.

Is this issue getting to that point? I doubt it. Will it get resolved. Absolutely. Is it worth all this DRAMA?? Don't think so.

I am sorry, Robin, that you and your family have once again been cast in this light. Tell ya what. If Buckeroo is really upset about this, and needs to get away, he can come here and visit for a while. Oh all right I guess you can too!!

 

[kr4horses]

Anyway- thanks again for all your input. I agree it doesn't matter who you are big farm or small farm- amateur or professional, when someone is out to ruin you they will try however they can. It is up to the true, honest and professional people to see above that and look for the positive things in life. If I constantly thought in the negative and how I could hurt someone that I didn't like or that I thought was doing something wrong- I would be miserable. Life is too short.

Could not agree More Robin with you statement above, Just hold your head up high!! It is sad there are so many Cruel people in the World and I do not think you even need to try and defend yourself

 

[Katiean]

I'm not sure why anyone would expect the original seller to provide signed paperwork for the foal. For sure she should provide the breeding certificate...that should really go with the mare when she is sold IMO, and of course the stallion report should be properly signed & filed with the registries. If the stallion report and/or the breeders certificate haven't been provided, they should be sent ASAP to the buyer of the mare, and from there the mare can be transferred and the proper owner can register the foal & provide paperwork for that foal to his new owner.

I think if the person who bred the mare provided the breeding certifact the new owner of the mare. They could then transfer the mare and register the colt and there would be no problems. I did not have my mare transfered before she foaled (I bought her pregnant) and I just sent in the signed transfer for her and did her DNA. Then this past November (he is 3 this year) I sent in the colts papers. The transfer was signed before the foal was born. So her ownership was infact mine even though the office papers did not agree. From the time the transfer is signed is when the mare changes ownership. If it were me I would just transfer the mare, Get a breeding certificate for that breeding and register and DNA the foal. I was told by AMHA that I had to do DNA on any horse I was registering. I don't know if that was a recent change or not as neither one of my mares were DNA'd when they were registered.

 

[~Dan]

deleted because after re reading your post did not graps the point

Dan

 

[Robin]

Thanks again for all the input and the - "yes I have made mistakes before too" comments. It makes me feel like I am human and not the only one here.

This really isn't about a mistake being done. I have taken responsibilty for it and I will be certain it all ends up just fine in the end. Honestly- We never intended on transferring the mare to our name. I had full intentions of selling her before the foal was born as that was the intent when we traded- why should we spend the money to transfer her if we would only own her for a month? .... But I didn't get her sold, forgot I hadn't transferred her, yada yada. Hence the situation. My fault.

The Point Is: I don't go on these public forums bashing people. Telling the World someone made a mistake and How Dare They- especially a BNF! And I don't jump on a band wagon and make accusations as a reader when someone does bash someone else.

It is my understanding that Susan has talked with the owner of the colt and she has signed and returned the paperwork which is great and very helpful and very much appreciated! I just hope in the future she could please discuss situations like this - one on one - with the people it involves instead of on a wide open forum for all to assume, accuse and input without knowing the facts. It doesn't help anyone or the situation.

Thanks again for everyone's thoughts and support. I think we can all go on with life now in a more positive direction.

Robin-LKF