Has anyone seen the recent pictures of Einstein?

[Molly's Run Minis]

Sorry - that's what I meant...it was more of a generic "we" than an actual "we"

lol sorry im a bit slow tonight. i think they just like the publicity. just my 2 cents

 

[Sandy B]

I believe that is what I said- Just because there are leg issues does not mean it is a dwarf. Maybe I should have inserted the word "solely" to "This is not "solely" a dwarf issue, but a growth issue. In full sized horses (what I was referring to), bad legs are not a dwarf issue, but a growth issue, so I would think minis are susceptible to the same issues as full sized horses in regards to contracted tendons and the likes at birth. Thats all I am saying. You cannot say that every mini foal born with crooked legs is a dwarf.

"Those with bad legs could mostly be fixed with frequent proper hoof care of glue shoes or even surgery to release tight tendons. This is not a dwarf issue, but a growth issue."

This statement is fallacious. More correctly, most/many dwarves do have leg problems. But, not all leg problems are caused by dwarfism. Bad legs can be a growth issue, too...or may not be. There are several causes of bad legs/hooves. Some can be improved with a great farrier and/or vet, and some can't.

 

[Michelle@wescofarms]

I find the topics of dwarfs fascinating since we are relatively new in the mini horse world. I have seen obvious pictures of dwarfs and have seen a couple in person. However I have seen a "fine line" in what some of you breeders are saying is conformationally correct and then what is listed as "dwarf characteristics" at the different levels. Please help me understand this all. When talking about dwarfs being large headed or large dome shaped heads & large eyes to the point of being very exotic looking- I see many many pictures of show breeders posting pictures of foals with huge foreheads and eyes. It is almost gross looking. So is this a dwarf trait? I see many many minis looking like miniature Arabians, long fine legs and light in the hip that are winning at halter- is this the "ideal" mini confirmation? I see breeders faulting minis that look like mini quarter horses- stocky, bigger hip, a bit shorter legged with bigger bone, heads not as refined. Is this type of mini a dwarf or conformationally challenged? I thought minis were to resemble several different breeds of larger horses since they are miniature horses. I mean, I agree that roach backs, bad bites, huge heads with no necks and long bodies and no legs scream dwarf, but who is to say that the Arabian type mini is more desirable than a stock type or qtr horse looking mini?

I have bred and shown quarter horses for years and have seen my fair share of conformational problems in foals. Some were prone to such problems due to genetics and others was just cruddy luck. Those with bad legs could mostly be fixed with frequent proper hoof care of glue shoes or even surgery to release tight tendons. This is not a dwarf issue, but a growth issue. It happens. So does every mini that is born that had contracted tendons or crooked limbs considered a dwarf? What about neck length? Have you ever looked at full size horses and seen the difference in their necks? Does a short neck automatically mean dwarf?

Finally, is there a test that can be run on breeding stock to test for dwarfism? I want to do my part. We have more stock type looking minis, which we prefer. They are all pretty, and correct with the exception of one aged mare with a short neck and none have Arabian dished heads, but none have ugly heads and all bites are correct. I suppose some of you would say they are conformationally poor due to looking like mini quarter horses, but we like them.

Hi Sandy, no there isn't a 'dwarf' test yet.

As for conformation in Minis, you're dead on with some say Araby others say domey-dwarfy. Personally while love the look of Arabs, I've yet to see a true "Mini" Arab. And I don't think that should be the ideal. But that is personal opinion. I've noticed over the years that people tend to breed Minis that resemble their larger breed of choice whether it's Q-horse, T-bred, Arab, Morgan, etc. A trend I think will continue as more people (as they age) transition to Minis. If you had a big black, blue eyed bald face quarterhorse that you loved you might want a Mini that had those characteristics.

The person who introduced me to Minis loved Paso's and Icelandic - glorious manes/tails, wonderful movement, but longer than what is considered now the 'ideal' heads! Pretty but not the wedgy-wide bug eye that is commonly seen now. I love Fresian's and would love to have a field of Mini Fresian's!

Someone had posed the question once, what if we found out the 'bug-eye wideset eyes was the same gene that caused dwarfism, would breeders stop? Not saying it is in anyway, but makes you wonder what some people would do.

RE: Einstein. I'm on the fence about him being a dwarf. The smaller Mini's (discussed this in the past with breeders that specialize in the under 30") have all mentioned getting small Mini that is very proportional correct is alot of work. The head is the last to 'shrink' down as you want smaller teeth, not just small head with large teeth. So looking at Einstein, he looks like a small, not perfect Mini. The roached back I've seen before in horses that have feeding/health issues, that is not a permanent thing. Honestly though I haven't followed Einstein as too me it's a media circus and they're riding the wave. Just not my cup of tea.

 

[Raine Ranch Minis]

Ok I found this picture it is "Recent"

and sorry it is so small.

 

[wcr]

To follow up with what Michelle said, we have had many discussions about the araby look wether it might be dwarf characteristics that we are breeding into our horses. When John Eberth was answering questions about dwarfism I asked him that question,and while he couldn't give a definite answer, he did say maybe. That gives food for thought. I had a colt born that was contracted in his front legs. Was he a dwarf? Heck no. He worn splints on his front legs for 2 days and was fine after that. Consider the small space they have to live in before birth and you are going to get a few. People post pics and say they are "unfolding" and that is just what they are doing.

As an example, take what happened in Quarter horses with HYPP and Impressive. He was the premier halter stallion because he had the muscle and bulk they were looking for. Why did he have the muscle? Because with the HYPP he fitted himself out standing in a stall having muscle spasms from the HYPP. AQHA is now trying to fix the problem they should have taken a stand on 25 years ago. Are we doing the same thing with the araby look in minis? I don't know and will have to wait and see.

Coming from the big horse halter world, we power feed young horses to "fit" them for halter classes as weanlings. You will see growth related leg problems, contracted tendons and epiphisitis that you don't see in minis. If you are raising these type of horses you better know what these things are to correct them as soon as they start to develop.

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

i found some pics of him that were taken last year

Just for comparison sake, here's Thumbelina:

I am totally convinced he is a dwarf, and I must say that it really irritates me that they are treating Einstein more like a dog than a horse!

ETA: Is it just me or does Einsteins coat look kinda curly?

 

[Riverdance]

Wow, look at the truck that they are hauling one little horse around in. You can't tell me that this is not for the money.

His body shape is so like Thumbelina. As I said before when they first started on all this hype...DWARF...DWARF.....DWARF

Sure wish we could educate the media and thus the public that this is not cute or acceptable. Would we give this kind of coverage on a human Little Person?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I think the coat may have been caused by his being clipped- although a lot in fact most of my clipped animals grow out normally there is the odd one that can grow out strangely. Also, it would depend on when he was last clipped and how long it has been growing.

As to the legs being crooked on some foal- yes, we see a lot of it but I do not remember any badly affected foals that have been put up on here for comments and help being consequently touted as stallions- in fact I do remember a couple that I (as a prime gelder) would have thought twice about gelding being gelded as weanlings purely on the basis of their having been so crooked at birth.

In a lot of ways the Mini Horse World is showing the way- I honestly do believe we have more honest and conscientious breeder/owners than we have dishonest/bad ones- but on the subject of dwarfism we do tend to stick our heads in the sand just a tiny, weeny bit.

If there were a test- when there is a test- I shall test my animals.

Any animal that carries a dwarf gene would be removed form the breeding programme irrespective of it's looks and championship status- that is irrelevant as far as I can see.

I have already been through this with my Dobes and Von Willebrands Disease (a form of rampant haemophillia) and that is the only way to do it. I am sure those of you who have or have had QHs have done the same with HYPP- but we really do need a test first, then we need a society that will have the guts to at least insist on the test status being noted on the pedigree. I would personally like all horses to have to be tested by the time their third foal is born (as we started into DNA) and that this should be mandatory, with the result on the papers.

This is what we did with Lethal White in Siamese's- we did not have an immediate moratorium on breeding LW carriers, but it has been slowly edged out. The same could be done with dwarfism.

I love the Arab type, I come form Arabs, they were my breed. We managed to get extravagant heads without dwarfism in them, and in Welsh Sec As, so I can see no reason why we cannot do the same in Minis.

Selective breeding should not cause dwarfism, so long as we are really selective!

These couple of dwarf threads have been really informative- I hope they can be put onto the "archives" or even moved onto the Dwarf Forum??

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

Wow, look at the truck that they are hauling one little horse around in. You can't tell me that this is not for the money.

His body shape is so like Thumbelina. As I said before when they first started on all this hype...DWARF...DWARF.....DWARF

Sure wish we could educate the media and thus the public that this is not cute or acceptable. Would we give this kind of coverage on a human Little Person?

Totally agree!

All of this is money, nothing else. Many small mini foals are born at 14" but do you see their breeders contacting the media?

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

If there were a test- when there is a test- I shall test my animals.

Me too, mostly out of pure curiousity

 

These couple of dwarf threads have been really informative- I hope they can be put onto the "archives" or even moved onto the Dwarf Forum??

That would be a great idea!

 

[shelia]

I wasn't going to comment on this as I try not to judge people, but in this case I will share my 2 cents.

First of all, does anyone know how tall he is now? It appears he may have lost his smallest horse status anyway.

The only concern I have with him is his roached back. I sure hope that doesn't cause him pain. The cause could be many things one of which could be that his internal organs are just too big for his size.

I think of mini breeding as similar to dog breeding. Through the years we have created almost every size and shape imaginable. It can happen unintintionaly with minis. Of course then dwarfism was introduced into the mix. It was tragic that early breeders did not take it seriously enough long ago. They did know! Many just denied it. You can tell when your horse isn't right. When trying to downsize, sometimes you can the legs too short or the body too long or even the head too big. That doesn't mean they are a dwarf. it just means they got part of the genes for the larger horses in the background. They are not what we are striving for but they are not dwarves. A deformity is a bit different. You can tell if you open your mind and think about it. You will know that little horse isn't right. You can try to deny to everyone else, but you will know.

Of course sometimes they can be carriers and you won't see it.

We are all terrified of this and with good reason. Many mares are lost trying to deliver a dwarf. If it does survive the birth, the quality of life will be greatly compromised.

I wish a long healthy life for Einstein. Perhaps being in the spotlight will insure he will always get the care he needs. If people come to buy a mini from you because they have seen Einstein, then you will be able to show them one with better conformation and educate them.

 

[Sandy B]

Thank you Michelle!

You are right about minis resembling many breeds. I just wish AMHA would separate halter classes in to a Stock type and Arab type. It would be nice.

I have seen some show breeders foal pictures of foals with crazy dishes and huge bug eyes that look like aliens. Maybe they grow up looking fine, but as weanlings it just does not look right. Is there someone or a web link where I can go to get bloodlines of minis that carry the dwarf gene? Or someone I can my minis bloodlines too that can tell me if I need to be concerned.

As a very small breeder of reining horses (AQHA) I genetic test for several dominant and recessive genes. Its my responsibility to better the breed.

And looking at Einstein with my inexperienced mini eye, its hard for me to call him a dwarf based on a roached back. His head does not look too large and never really has in comparison to other pictures of mini foals, nor his neck look that short. His legs look great (were they fixed is the question, but you can not fix the legs of a dwarf completely can you) He just looks like a micro mini with a few conformational problems. You look at the picture that compares him to Thumbalina and she screams dwarf to me. Her roached back is more forward and his is more towards his hip. Maybe as he ages he will get worse who knows. Plus Thumbalina's head is HUGE and her hip weak. Just my opinion.

Hi Sandy, no there isn't a 'dwarf' test yet.

As for conformation in Minis, you're dead on with some say Araby others say domey-dwarfy. Personally while love the look of Arabs, I've yet to see a true "Mini" Arab. And I don't think that should be the ideal. But that is personal opinion. I've noticed over the years that people tend to breed Minis that resemble their larger breed of choice whether it's Q-horse, T-bred, Arab, Morgan, etc. A trend I think will continue as more people (as they age) transition to Minis. If you had a big black, blue eyed bald face quarterhorse that you loved you might want a Mini that had those characteristics.

The person who introduced me to Minis loved Paso's and Icelandic - glorious manes/tails, wonderful movement, but longer than what is considered now the 'ideal' heads! Pretty but not the wedgy-wide bug eye that is commonly seen now. I love Fresian's and would love to have a field of Mini Fresian's!

Someone had posed the question once, what if we found out the 'bug-eye wideset eyes was the same gene that caused dwarfism, would breeders stop? Not saying it is in anyway, but makes you wonder what some people would do.

RE: Einstein. I'm on the fence about him being a dwarf. The smaller Mini's (discussed this in the past with breeders that specialize in the under 30") have all mentioned getting small Mini that is very proportional correct is alot of work. The head is the last to 'shrink' down as you want smaller teeth, not just small head with large teeth. So looking at Einstein, he looks like a small, not perfect Mini. The roached back I've seen before in horses that have feeding/health issues, that is not a permanent thing. Honestly though I haven't followed Einstein as too me it's a media circus and they're riding the wave. Just not my cup of tea.

 

[Margo_C-T]

Sandee B...never fear, you are not the only one who likes a QH look in minis...nor should you be. Wish I had a way to scan and post photos; with a VERY long history in QH's(since the mid-50s), I also favor the QH look--though I'll add, I do NOT mean the 'look' of today's 'Halter' QH's, which I consider pitifully freakish...so all of my registered minis have the 'general' look of what I consider a quality QH(but the only decent photos I have of them are from their 'glory days' of some years back, w/ no digital camera available.)You can see a head shot of one in my avatar, in a casual snapshot...you can see his 'non'extreme', attractive head(even though he occasionally lets his lower lip droop, as he was doing there!)

IMO, none of the pics of Einstein available on this thread really make it possible to fairly evaluate his overall build. I do think I recall seeing a photo which clearly showed a serious roach back, though. My gut feeling at this point is that he likely wouldn't qualify definitively as a dwarf...not as yet, anyway...but clearly appears to have conformational issues(the roach back is the visibly most serious, at least at this time) and overall, isn't likely to be something you'd wish to replicate conformationally. I don't think he is likely to long qualify for ANY 'smallest' category of equine, as he matures(and NO immature individual should be able to claim such a designation, anyway, IMO)...and for sure, I wouldn't be keeping him a stallion.

Margo

 

[Sue_C.]

I love the Arab type, I come form Arabs, they were my breed. We managed to get extravagant heads without dwarfism in them, and in Welsh Sec As, so I can see no reason why we cannot do the same in Minis.

Exactly so, and the first thing to do is to make people realize that a bulging forehead is NOT an "Araby" head...

 

[splash's mom]

Okay,

It must be the crappy weather or I need to get a life because I'm going to jump in here and comment on this thread. I hope I can get want I want to say out correctly. We all agree I think, that Einstien is less than correct.( okay a lot less) and most would rather not see him out in the public eye.But it is free publicity for the breed, (don't flame me here let me finish) and I can hear it now "other breeds don't take us seriously because of horses like that, He's a bad example" Well I say who cares what they think, they have their own problems and uglies to contend with. All I know is that alot of minis showup at nationals and worlds every year ( beautiful horses I might ad) and that I do take serious. As for Einstien being in the public eye maybe just maybe someone see's him and show's up at your doorstep wanting to buy a miniature horse and you can tell them all about the beautiful, horses you have for sale

" Educate Them" I know as far as I'm concerned having grown up with horses I can tell the difference between good and bad but people new to horses aren't looking at him and thinking omg he's got a roach back. So I would like to look at the sunny side of this thread because it is so cold damp and miserable here in New England today

 

[Matt73]

So....people that comment on this need to get a life? Nice.

 

[splash's mom]

So....people that comment on this need to get a life? Nice.

That's not how I meant it. And is the exact reason why I shouldnt have gotten involved in this thread. My Bad

 

[Helicopter]

I think he's cute

.......poor little buggar.

 

[shelia]

Now Matt,

This is not a reason to pick a fight. We all know the post was not meant to be taken that way. We shouldn't take one line in a post and pick it apart. This is why I am afraid to post sometimes. I am afraid people will take what I type the wrong way.

So....people that comment on this need to get a life? Nice.

 

[midnight star stables]

That's not how I meant it. And is the exact reason why I shouldnt have gotten involved in this thread. My Bad

I think you had some good thoughts! And as I do agree that Einstein is a dwarf. I'm hoping that his owners will promote and educate that fact themselves, once they realize it. And I'm sure they are great people... Just wish we could get a National grand champion on Oprah.