Has anyone seen the recent pictures of Einstein?

Miniature Horse Talk Forums

Help Support Miniature Horse Talk Forums:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.

Contessa

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2007
Messages
220
Reaction score
0
Location
Dover, PA
Since there are ongoing threads and comments about dwarfism, I would like to get people's opinions on this. New thread started on the dwarf forum with new pictures of Einstein. I can't get the pics over here so maybe someone else can. He still has the larger head he was born with but what I noticed right away was his definate roach back. As far as I know his owners are still calling him a non-dwarf. Thoughts on this?

ipcnz41.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
He was, obviously, very dwarfy looking at birth. It was frustrating for me to hear many saying that was just a normal tiny miniature horse. I'm interested to see updated pics of him...
 
I never had any doubts that he was an obvious dwarf- I agree it is frustrating when the owners cannot see it but they seem nice people and hopefully they will come to realise he should not be bred. He will still make them a lovely and unusual pet, though.
 
Since there are ongoing threads and comments about dwarfism, I would like to get people's opinions on this. New thread started on the dwarf forum with new pictures of Einstein. I can't get the pics over here so maybe someone else can. He still has the larger head he was born with but what I noticed right away was his definate roach back. As far as I know his owners are still calling him a non-dwarf. Thoughts on this?
Do you have a link to the dwarf forum?
 
I still say not dwarf
default_unsure.png


EinsteinMinihorse-1.jpg
 
I wish I could remember where I saw a new and recent picture of him that looked really really good. I sure do not think he is a dwarf at all.

Maybe someone else saw it too and will post it.

Susan O.
 
http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=86368&pid=926940&st=0entry926940

I posted that link on another thread but thought it might do some good here too. Look at the pictures and John's response.

Einstein may be small and have conformational flaws but that does not mean dwarf.

--to clarify, I am well aware this is not Einstein. I am showing that there are too many people thinking small with conformational flaws automatically means dwarf when in fact they are not
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Yep, know that. I'm pointing out that small and conformationally flawed does not mean dwarf.
 
http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=86368&pid=926940&st=0entry926940

I posted that link on another thread but thought it might do some good here too. Look at the pictures and John's response.

Einstein may be small and have conformational flaws but that does not mean dwarf.

Based upon what I read, that is not Einstein he is talking about. I too have never had any doubts that Einstein was a dwarf. Time will tell as he matures, but my guess is that he will grow long with short legs, be roached in the back, have trouble getting around and his head will be even bigger than his body, then it was in the baby photos.

Unfortunately I was not able to see any updated pictures of him on this forum, short of the ones of him falling in the snow. Can not tell there what he looks like.
 
Posting some stuff from John's research:

"To answer fully your question I need to take into account all 4 possible types I have characterized so far, however there could be more types than these or one of these types could be a combination of two of the four types. Please keep that in mind.

Unfortunately, I do not have my reference pictures on a website so I cannot show them here, and they need to stay off of websites for now, until I can definitively state such differences.

The carriers of types 1 and 4 SOMETIMES show subtle features of a type 1 dwarf, i.e. extremely domed forehead, large prominant eyes, very exotic head overall. That being said however, it is NOT 100% true. In the carriers of types 1 and 4, height is extremely variable, bone structure and thickness extremely variable, length of neck extremely variable. I have samples of parents that produce a type 1 dwarf that really do not show signs in the head and are not very small in height, the only give away was pedigree. However other samples give all of the signs, head, off mouth (usually underbite), build, height, and pedigree.

To clarify 1 vs. 4, the type 1 is the type we see most often, the type 4 is the lethal type that does not go to term.

Carriers of types 2 and 3 so far have shown no signs of being carriers, all so far show extreme variation in height and conformation, the only commonality in structure of the parents so far are overall head structure. They are straight, slightly large for body size, very normal looking heads you would see on a regular horse and ARE NOT exotic. But, they are NOT a straight pony head, i.e. what most people refer to in the pony breed. These characteristics are very general visual differences and commonalities I have experienced and documented, and are not conformational facts describing the disease carriers. They are only observations so far that I see as commonalities with conditions producing a dwarf.

Type 2 dwarf is the type that looks like it has a normal body neck and a large plain or straight head, the dwarf just looks like it had it legs cut in half, in reality the upper leg bones are severely shortened, hips miss-shaped, and a large head. These are the bones and structures that I can tell so far are affected, though I do not have enough samples x-rayed and compared to make that definitive. Unfortunately, this is the type I have seen in the past most often used in breeding progams due to the fact that they still have a mostly normal life and reproductive viability.

Type 3 dwarf is the most severe type that is viable, they are extremely small usually, have severe spine (roachback) and leg deformities, usually severely shortened neck, and severely deformed head with off bite. This type is possibly a combination of types, i.e. inheritance of two different recessive dwarf genes due to the fact that the bodies are so severely deformed and variable it has been very difficult to find a consistent deformed type.

There are some concepts I need to explain about the inheritance and expression of recessive genes to qualify my answers. This is especially important involving carriers of recessive dwarf genes and other recessive deleterious genes, and determining, visually, carriers or non carriers and the problems in doing only that.

One concept is PENETRANCE of a recessive gene over a dominant gene in a population. For example how a recessive dwarf gene's characteristics can penetrate and express the condition over the dominant normal gene's characteristics over a large population. Visual example is a normal horse that is a recessive carrier of the type 1 dwarfism and shows some of the characteristics individually or in combinations, like a severely domed head, very large eyes, under bite, etc. The strict genetic definition is "the frequency, under given environmental conditions, with which a specific phenotype is expressed by those individuals with a specific genotype." So you would see variable PENETRANCE of this recessive gene in the Miniature population, which is what I believe is occuring.

Another concept is EXPRESSIVITY of a recessive gene in one animal. The strict definition is the degree to which an expressed gene produces its effects in an organism. So if you take the example of the situation I explained with Penetrance, you have a normal carrier of a type 1 recessive dwarf gene, and it shows some characteristics of possibly being a carrier, well EXPRESSIVITY is the how much effect is the dwarf gene having on the individual horse to overpower the dominant gene, i.e. slang terminology one might hear is "How dwarfy does the horse look?"

Now you also need to understand the difference of these terms and concepts regarding recessive genes when comparing them to co-dominant genes. A co-dominant diseased gene would ALWAYS be expressed in a carrier with its normal counterpart in equal amounts and NEVER be "hidden". A good example in some flowers is the color pink, it is not a one color but a combination of different colored cells, some are red and come are white, making the color look pink with the naked eye."

Einstein does not fit into any of the types that have been identified. Now he may be a carrier of type 2 and 3 based on what John said he has researched but that's still a maybe
 
Here is a couple of more.. sometimes we do not take the best photo to promote our minis.. but he sure does not look dwarf

Einsteinminihorse2-1.jpg


Einstein-1.jpg
 
I am still on the fence about this.... first of all, the markings on his head give it the appearance of being even longer than it is. Look at the actual length of his head compared to the length of his neck. Not that bad.

And I agree, conformational problems dont mean dwarf. His legs appear to be fairly correct and I dont see that his conformation has changed that much all along- some you can tell get 'shorter and fatter and longer' as they age- he appears to be staying about the same to me.
 
In the picture with the ball his neck LOOKS shorter than it should be. Now I know not all horses have that long hooky neck. Heavens knows none of my horses do. But there is a difference between a normal neck and a short DWARF neck. I still stand with my original (from his birth pictures) opinion that Einstein is a dwarf.
 
I thought he was a dwarf when I first saw his baby pictures. He is very cute, though not what many experienced miniature horse people would strive to breed (for or to).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Here is a youtube video of him when he was first born, note that they had to have special shoes made for him because he was not walking right. (dwarf), note that his head is much bigger than his body, plus I read somewhere that his bite has gone off. All indications of a dwarf.

Also, to say he is smaller than Thumbalina, when she is an adult horse and he is a foal, is incorrect. Wait till he is finished growing.

Many years ago I had a foal born that was very tiny and looked perfectly normal. Properly proportioned, nice head and a long slim neck to boot, for the first few months. Plus he had no trouble waling to begin with. But as he got older his tendons got tighter and soon he was not able to trot. By the time he was a year old, his body was very long, his legs were very short and his head and long slim neck were the same as they were when born. I spoke to John about him and it was confirmed that he was a minimal Dwarf, which,as I mentioned, is what I think this boy is.



Also, a side picture of Einstein when he was young. Notice the big head and long thick neck. Plus look how low he is in the back end.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/files/tmp/052010_einstein.jpg

Last, there are a couple of articles about Einstein turning 1, but no pictures of him as a yearling. they do say he is now 20" tall, no longer "the smallest horse in the World".
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I was asked a few times why we are allowing a discussion and pictures about someone's horse on this forum.. the answer is simple..

Einstein was made Public Domain by the breeder & owner - They have put him out there as a public figure that generates comments. We are also not using his image to sell anything..

There is a difference between the much publicized Einstein and any horse you or someone else owns that does not promote to vast public as the "Worlds Most … … "

Hope you understand what I am saying.. We hope the members of this forum can keep this thread informative and not used to offend.
Thanks Mary Lou - I wondered why folks were posting photos of a horse they do not own. Recognizing that he is "Public Domain" now, I for one still do not see why anyone brought this up if they don't own him? IMO Our job as Miniature Horse enthuastiasts is to promote and improve the true quality miniature horse. Let's get the GOOD examples of Miniature horses out in the mainstream. I'm sending photos of MY horses (conformationally correct thank you!) To OPRAH!!!!
 

Latest posts

Back
Top