Everyone Watching

[ClickMini]

Well it's been fun playing with you Jill! LOL

Gotta go home and work some horses.

 

[LowriseMinis]

I'd like to know how raising our national standard of living has anything to do with personal responsibility. We're far from low on the list, but I think we can do better than being #8, don't you?

 

[Jill]

I'd like to know how raising our national standard of living has anything to do with personal responsibility. We're far from low on the list, but I think we can do better than being #8, don't you?

Lowrise, I feel that we are each responsible for our own standard of living. If someone doesn't feel like their standard of living is good enough, I cannot think of a Nation that provides more opportunity for individual improvement. How is your standard of living not a personal responsibility? I'd say it's a very basic one.

If everyone, or even almost everyone, took personal responsibility for their own standard of living, vs. waiting for Uncle Sam to lend a hand, what do you think would happen the the National standard of living as a result?

 

[LowriseMinis]

Actually, the report I saw citing us at #8 is wrong. We've dropped quite a bit.

I don't think you're quite getting what I'm talking about when I say 'standard of living'. I should have provided a link earlier, so here's one now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Development_Index

The Human Development Index (HDI) is an index combining normalized measures of life expectancy, literacy, educational attainment, and GDP per capita for countries worldwide. It is claimed as a standard means of measuring human development — a concept that, according to the United Nations Development Program (UNDP), refers to the process of widening the options of persons, giving them greater opportunities for education, health care, income, employment, etc. The basic use of HDI is to rank countries by level of "human development", which usually also implies to determine whether a country is a developed, developing, or underdeveloped country.

A new index was released on December 18, 2008. This so-called "statistical update" covers the period up to 2006 and was published without an accompanying report on human development. The update is relevant due to newly released estimates of purchasing power parities (PPP), implying substantial adjustments for many countries, resulting in changes in HDI values and, in many cases, HDI ranks.[6]
1. Iceland 0.968 (▬)

2. Norway 0.968 (▬)

3. Canada 0.967 (▲ 1)

4. Australia 0.965 (▼ 1)

5. Ireland 0.960 (▬)

6. Netherlands 0.958 (▲ 3)

7. Sweden 0.958 (▼ 1)

8. Japan 0.956 (▬)

9. Luxembourg 0.956 (▲ 9)

10. Switzerland 0.955 (▼ 3)

11. France 0.955 (▼ 1)

12. Finland 0.954 (▼ 1)

13. Denmark 0.952 (▲ 1)

14. Austria 0.951 (▲ 1)

15. United States 0.950 (▼ 3)

16. Spain 0.949 (▼ 3)

17. Belgium 0.948 (▼ 1)

18. Greece 0.947 (▲ 6)

19. Italy 0.945 (▲ 1)

20. New Zealand 0.944 (▼ 1)

When I say standard of living, I'm not talking about if I can afford a new car. I am not talking about MY standard of living. I'm talking about the nation as a whole. I'm asking: is this country doing everything possible to help it's citizens be productive? To be healthy? Educated? It is up to every single person to take initiative when something is offered to improve their own situation, but we also have to be sure this country is doing it's part. From that list, we could be doing better, couldn't we? So many people are keen to tell others to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, without realizing some people in this country don't have boots.

Something interesting to note, since it's a pet cause of mine: Every nation ahead of us on this list has some form of nationalized health care.

 

[Jill]

When I say standard of living, I'm not talking about if I can afford a new car. I am not talking about MY standard of living. I'm talking about the nation as a whole. I'm asking: is this country doing everything possible to help it's citizens be productive? To be healthy? Educated? It is up to every single person to take initiative when something is offered to improve their own situation, but we also have to be sure this country is doing it's part. From that list, we could be doing better, couldn't we? So many people are keen to tell others to pull themselves up by their bootstraps, without realizing some people in this country don't have boots.
Something interesting to note, since it's a pet cause of mine: Every nation ahead of us on this list has some form of nationalized health care.

If you don't feel that the way to improve the National standard of living is for everyone to take the initiative to improve their own standard of living, then I guess we have to realize our life experiences have made it impossible for us to reach the same conclusion on this matter

Hopefully if National Healthcare does come to pass, your employer won't let you and some of your coworkers go as a result. That all important bottom line -- as the primary reason a business is established and exists is to provide for the owner(s). I know that for my own personal health insurance and health care, I pay more than many people do for their mortgage. But that's okay with me. It's my own personal responsibility to take care of myself. I've been supporting myself -- the roof over my head, the food I eat, the cars I drive, and my education -- since I was 18, which was "a few years ago"

Some of the things you have said further illustrate to me that there's a big sense of entitlement in this Nation and not enough personal initiative. The harder I work for what I have, the more I feel like others should also do what they can to provide for themselves

 

[LowriseMinis]

I'm sorry if my legitimate concern for our nation's standing in the world and the wellbeing of my fellow citizens strikes anyone as being a sense of entitlement. I know it's horribly selfish of me to think that by investing more in our nation's education and healthcare, we might be doing ourselves some good.

/sarcasm

So, you're saying that the countries that rank ahead of us on that scale are only there because each and every one of their citizens has more personal responsibility than us Americans?

I know I've attempted to educate in the past about Obama's health plan during his campaign. You would have a choice to use it. If your employer provides insurance, you can still use that. If you want to buy a private plan, you still can. I'm not sure why, exactly, that would cause my employer to fire me.

Besides, I have a very good union backing me.

Is there anything else on my list you'd like to pick apart?

 

[Jill]

Lowrise, we aren't going to see eye to eye, like I said -- let's chalk it up to our different life experiences and let it go. I've expressed my point of view as well as I can given the time I am willing to spend on it within this thread and am sorry you feel your opinion has been picked apart.

 

[LowriseMinis]

If you'd like to walk away, that's fine. But do you disagree that it is the responsibility of a country to provide everything it can to help it's citizens succeed?

Do you disagree that health care is a human right?

Do you disagree that not everyone in this nation is on level footing? That not every person has the same upbringing, social or economic status?

Should we or should we not always be striving to do better for our people?

 

[Sonya]

Do you disagree that not everyone in this nation is on level footing? That not every person has the same upbringing, social or economic status?

I know this question was directed at Jill but I would like to give my opinion. It is true that not everyone has the same upbringing, social or economic status. But we ALL have opportunity in this country to change that if we so choose... every single one of us, aside from the handicapped, etc. It is called hard work and initiative! I was raised in a below middle class family economically. I was the first to attend college and receive a degree. I now make over 6 figures. How did I do it? I worked 2 jobs while I attended college full time (on student loans that 15yrs later I am still paying on). So, there is plenty of opportunity for people to improve their standard of living, it takes sacrifice, hard work and personal responsibility. There are thousands of success stories probably right here on this forum.

One of the problems with this country today, is that many do want to improve their standards, but don't want to get off their butt to do it!

 

[Charlene]

just a few thoughts...

i think more people can identify with president obama because i don't think he's one of those "wealthy" ne'er-do-wells. whether or not that should have elicited more popular votes, maybe not but the fact is, there are more average or below-average income people in this country than there are wealthy people. at least, that's my own limited experience.

i think john mccain embodied much of what former president bush stood for in the minds of some of us "common" people, that being a vision of a man tooling around a thousand acre ranch (or more?) in a vehicle that cost more than some of us paid for the homes we so desperately want to hang on to but fear we will lose because of the economy and job losses.

i am sick to death of "the first black man" blah, blah, blah. if i'm not mistaken, president obama's mother was white. he is biracial, he is not black. i understand that even a man of biracial descent has accomplished what a few short years ago was unthinkable in the minds of many by becoming president of the united states but c'mon already, give it a rest. living in illinois, i was proud to see him in the senate and i have followed his relatively brief political career and i am happy he has achieved this success but i just don't see what the big deal is. i would have voted for him if his skin was purple with flourescent green polka dots! i just think the news media went way over the top by CONSTANTLY calling his race into play. it was almost as if they were shocked that a black man could possibly have the ability to succeed, obviously a VERY erroneous thought process. all you have to do is look down through history.

i also believe that the obama family has, in some respects, been compared to the kennedy family. obviously, the wealth factor does not apply but i am old enough to remember the joy that john kennedy brought to this country and i remember so well watching caroline riding macaroni over jumps placed on the white house lawn. i think it will be refreshing and even FUN to see a young family in the white house again and i, for one, can't wait to see the new white house puppy when they finally make up their minds!!!

i wish president obama and his family the very best. i hope he can prove his doubters wrong although i know it will take time.

EDITED to add...having shared my life for 12 wonderful years with a man i love more than life itself, watching the obamas gaze into each others eyes absolutely gave me chills and made me cry more than once. when they wrapped their arms around each other during one dance, i thought to myself yeah, this'll work. you have to start all the good stuff at home and it's obvious to me, they love and respect each other to the max!

 

[Maxi'sMinis]

Ditto Charlene!

 

[Jill]

If you'd like to walk away, that's fine. But do you disagree that it is the responsibility of a country to provide everything it can to help it's citizens succeed?

Lowrise, didn't I plainly say several times that I believe each individual is responsible for providing for their own standard of living and improving it if they choose to do so?

Does the Country wave a magic wand to improve the Nation's standard of living? If so then I'm all for it. But if that means higher taxes on the so called "wealthy", no I'm not for that at all.

I've plainly said what I mean in this thread. I see no room to be confused by the things I've said. Yes, I can see room for some to disagree but to be confused about what I meant? I don't think so.

Do you disagree that not everyone in this nation is on level footing? That not every person has the same upbringing, social or economic status?
Should we or should we not always be striving to do better for our people?

Do you honestly not see that sentiment for what it is? Communism. Maybe it sounds good up until you yourself realize how much better you may have it than a good percentage of the population and then reflect upon what you yourself have done to provide that reality for yourself.

Do you disagree that not everyone in this nation is on level footing? That not every person has the same upbringing, social or economic status?

I know this question was directed at Jill but I would like to give my opinion. It is true that not everyone has the same upbringing, social or economic status. But we ALL have opportunity in this country to change that if we so choose... every single one of us, aside from the handicapped, etc. It is called hard work and initiative! I was raised in a below middle class family economically. I was the first to attend college and receive a degree. I now make over 6 figures. How did I do it? I worked 2 jobs while I attended college full time (on student loans that 15yrs later I am still paying on). So, there is plenty of opportunity for people to improve their standard of living, it takes sacrifice, hard work and personal responsibility. There are thousands of success stories probably right here on this forum.

One of the problems with this country today, is that many do want to improve their standards, but don't want to get off their butt to do it!

Sonya -- AMEN!!!

 

[Mona]

WONDERFUL post Charlene!!

 

[McBunz]

I am wondering if you, Jill would have such strong opinions on this if you were not working for you father/ partner and your job was on the line like it is

for a lot of people. Could you then afford health care and all the other things you enjoy.. ??? Try banking your paycheck for a few months without using it

and see how the majority might feel.. Try looking for a job with your qualifications and see if there is an abundance of opportunities out there..

 

[Pepipony]

I cant help but wonder how Bush made us safe if an attack happened on his watch? Didnt those 3k people die during his term? I am NOT saying that any President would have stopped the attacks, although I think another may have. What I am saying is how can Bush be acredited for keeping us safe when the largest attack since Pearl happened on his watch?

That doesn't even justify a response. You didn't even get the jest of my post.

You werent the only one that has stated this, that is why I didnt quote anyone specific. But it wouldnt suprise me to not get a reply anyhow, there really isnt a plausible one. To explain that more, I would assume then if ( God forbid) Obama has a huge attack killing thousands, so long as the rest of his term is attack free, then 'you' would state that he kept us safe? I didnt think so.

 

[Jill]

I am wondering if you, Jill would have such strong opinions on this if you were not working for you father/ partner and your job was on the line like it isfor a lot of people. Could you then afford health care and all the other things you enjoy.. ??? Try banking your paycheck for a few months without using it

and see how the majority might feel.. Try looking for a job with your qualifications and see if there is an abundance of opportunities out there..

Well, not that it is any of your business, but I am the President of the corporation. I am also the one in charge of the office and client accounts when it comes to answering to the regulatory authorities. So, while my father is my business partner and has been since 1994 when I was 25 and really benefitted in getting large accounts with the visibility of a more senior partner. I do not work for my dad and truly, he lets all our joint clients know he works for me (which is good for a laugh but more true than not). We work well together and enjoy what we have both built.

My "pay check" is on the line every day in a sense as I do not get paid by the hour but rather by how much business I bring in, and managing the money and accounts I have already brought in... a considerable book of business that I work hard build and maintain. From my management of accounts, acquiring new clients, and working with existing clients, I am able to earn a living for myself, rent a large office suite, pay my administrative staff, advertise, etc., etc., etc.

Your last sentence -- try looking for a job with your qualifications. I can see no way to take that other than as a very rude remark and short fallen attempt at observation. I do not have to look for a job. I have built a business through hard work, initiative and major financial sacrafices early on. But if I chose to now take a pay cut, I have ALL the credentials and qualifications to run a brokerage office and supervise all the stock brokers in it. I'm sure there are many additional things I'm qualified to do as well, but as someone who's been self employed for most of her working life, I don't find it likely that I'll be filling out job applications anytime soon.

 

[LowriseMinis]

So because one person was able to do something, every person is able to do something.

Working to improve our standard of living by improving our health care and education systems is communism.

Now I get it.

 

[Pepipony]

So because one person was able to do something, every person is able to do something.
Working to improve our standard of living by improving our health care and education systems is communism.

Now I get it.

Well, its trickle down economics my dear. Its good practice to bail out big banks/financial things, to the tune of $700,000,000,000.00 + , with no real watchdoging to make sure they arent paying themselves big fat wads of cash because their business is thriving and they deserve it. But its bad business to help the peons who lost their job because those big business savy gurus decided they needed the money. Or the retirees who worked their entire lives for their retirement, but lost it all because those business savy gurus ran their business into the ground. The thing about trickle down economics is those at the top reap the rewards while the business fails and those at the bottom lose everything. Then those at the bottom get griped out because 'they didnt plan for themselves'. gee, I thought having a retirement plan was a plan?

Its communism to do things for the peons. Its good business to do for the 'rich'.

 

[LowriseMinis]

Oh! On that note, interesting bailout graphic I came across.

 

[McBunz]

What I am trying to say is there are a great many people who have worked hard all their lives and with the bad times have lost jobs and can not find jobs no matter what qualifications they have. No jobs.... no health care... How many people have posted on here that an illness with themselves or a family member has wiped them out.. Eating and roof over their families heads comes first.. How many minimum wage jobs do a couple have to work just to pay for these.