Dummy foal, asphyxia

[StarRidgeAcres]

Sorry I have kept everyone updated. I REALLY appreciate all the emails and PMs I've gotten with well wishes for Goldie's little filly. I'll try to sum up what has gone on, but honestly I'm so confused about everything that I will probably misrepresent something.

Goldie foals a little filly on 2/12/08 at 1:30am. The birth looked normal (at least to my novice eyes) and the foal came out with a lot of energy and a strong desire to nurse. Mom was a bit tired and slow to get up, but I attributed that to her age (17yrs). The foal was nursing, pooping, peeing, running, kicking and just generally using the foaling stall as her personal racetrack within a few hours. The vet came out at 2:00pm for the IG level test and general exam of mom and baby. They both got a clean bill of health and the foal seemed to be thriving.

At 4:00pm we got the news that her IG number was 400 (want somewhere much closer to 800 they said) so we planned a plasma transfusion for 11:00 this morning. By 6:00pm last night, she was sleeping so soundly that we had a very hard time waking her. But once up, she nursed, puttered around and seemed basically OK, although not quite as bright-eyed as earlier in the day.

By 9:00pm, we thought she was dead. Could not wake her up! We were rubbing her, kind of patting/slapping her a bit, picked her up and she was totally limp - nothing. Bobby started doing mouth to nose and she sort of shook and then woke up and started breating. We tried to get her to nurse and there was NO MILK!! None! We even tried the pump we have and got nothing. So, off to the hospital.

Got to the hospital by 10pm, foal was very listless. They did blood gas check, cbc, and pretty much everything looked pretty close to normal except for a couple of counts (can't remember what they were specifically called) hinted at dehydration and the fact that she wasn't getting enough milk. They milked mom and she had milk - plenty of it! I don't know what was the problem at home, but I don't care at this point.

They got the baby to nurse and she emptied both sides, then she pretty much fell asleep and was back to being listless. They did a plasma transfusion and IV fluids and kept her overnight.

Today they are saying she's nursing, but not as vigorously as they'd like, her glucose and other factors seem basically normal. They are using words like "dummy foal" and possible "asphyxia" when born.

They want to keep her through tomorrow and see how she's doing on Friday, but all they are really doing for her is the IV and monitoring her test results every 3 hours. And I don't mean "all" like I don't think it's necessary, it's just that they don't really know for sure what is wrong.

Any suggestions? Any questions I should ask? I'm going to go visit her on the way home from work in a couple of hours.

Thanks so much and please keep the little girl in your thoughts.

 

[muffntuf]

Here is an article on dummy foals. Please do not let them talk you into putting the foal down, due to their misunderstanding. Often times dummy foals live very long and prouctive lives.

Dummy foal article link:

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=879

asphyxia just means lack of oxygen.

 

[Buckskin gal]

Have seen dummy calves respond really well to B complex shots. She doesn't sound like she is a dummy foal though which happens when they don't get enough oxygen when being born. The B complex would be worth trying. though. JMHO Mary

 

[lvponies]

My thoughts and prayers are being sent to the little filly. Please update us when you can.

{{{HUGS}}}

 

[nightflight]

Few articles from basic to more advanced...

http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=879

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/large_animal...s/neonatal.html

http://www.corralonline.com/articles/article060608194315.htm

http://www.surgi-carecenter.com/topics/Dummy%20Foal.pdf

http://www.ivis.org/proceedings/AAEP/2003/bernard/IVIS.pdf

I can't speak for your vet's but the general horse vets around here are not as agressive as they need to be when it comes to treating foals. If you feel that more should be being done for your foal, call around for more options. Even a phone consultation with a reproductive vet or a school hospital might be worth looking into - just make sure you follow up too, so you know what was recommended, and what was actually done.

 

[Tammie]

I'll be sending prayers your way for both Goldie's filly and for you! I know how long you have waited for this little girl.

 

[BlueStar]

Coming from having a dummy foal experience....it doesn't sound to me like that is what is going on with her. Our dummy foal had an older dam as well but what happened was the birth was so quick and mom got up too fast...in a nutshell the cord broke to quickly and the foal lost that extra good stuff. It happens a lot in red bag deliveries from what I understand. Sounds like she has more of a fainting type sleepy issue. Seems like when she is up and alert, she is nursing well, but may not be nursing often enough due to the sleepiness???? If your interested in details of what experience we had with a dummy foal, feel free to PM me and I would be glad to share.

 

[StarRidgeAcres]

Thank you everyone. I've read the articles and found them VERY helpful. To my untrained eye, she does act like the foals described in the articles. She was very normal and fiesty at birth but has become lathargic overtime. I just talked to the vet and there is no change. She is being treated with an IV, antibiotics and nutritional supplements. They tell me, as well as what the articles said, that she may very well recover and end up being normal if she can get through these first few days.

Thanks again. I'm going to stop by and see her on my way home from work.

Also, forgot to mention and don't know if it's important, but her eyes have remained very bloodshot ever since birth. They haven't cleared up like other foals' eyes have.

 

[valshingle]

Have the vets kept you informed about the foal's glucose level? It needs to be at least 100. Our premature colt is doing well at the vet's, but he isn't able to nurse enough to keep his glucose level where it needs to be all the time. So the vets check his level every two hours and administer glucose if his level drops too far. Sounds like your baby may have gotten a very low glucose that first night and maybe got hypoxic (not enough oxygen to the brain). Low glucose (blood sugar) causes sleepiness and eventally coma. Hopefully, with time your baby will stabilize and be ok. My prayers are with you.

 

[nightflight]

Neonatal Isoerythrolysis has probably already been ruled out, but are her gums and urine normal colors?

http://jaundicedjaw.blogspot.com/2006/06/n...ythrolysis.html

http://www.twhbea.com/neoIso.htm

(note, have not read the two above. Just pulled them up and scanned a few lines, so I'm not sure how good they are)

If PCV and RBC are on the bill they've already checked...

___-One More Blurb_____

Neotyphodium coenophialum (Toxic Fescue)

3. Gravid Mares: 3.3 Foal Vigor and Viability

Monroe et al., (1988) observed large-framed, dysmature and emaciated looking (poor muscle mass) foals with overgrown hooves in E+ mares whose foals survived the birthing process and whose average gestation length was 27 days past the expected foaling date (Figure 1). These foals appeared weak and many times exhibited a "dummy-like" behavior. Later, with proper care, the foals appeared normal (Monroe et al., 1988; Earle et al., 1990). Septicemia (bacterial infection at or near birth) is a frequent problem and is likely a result of the low level of passive immunity. Putnam et al. (1991) reported that of 11 mares grazing E+ fescue, only three foals were alive at birth, and only one of the three survived the first month of life. In this study, dysmaturity or neonatal death of foals was not observed in 11 mares grazing E- pastures.

Taylor et al. (1985) and Kosanke et al. (1989) observed lack of lung maturation in stillborn foals born to E+ mares. Amniotic fluid from E+ mares lacked pulmonary phospholipids and phosphatidylethanolamine was present in only 12% of E+ mares (Clare et al., 1994). These data suggest that lack of lung maturation may be a contributing factor to the high rate of foal death observed in E+ mares. Boosinger et al. (1994) examined several organs and tissues from foals of E+ and E- mares. Histologic studies of thyroid glands from foals exposed to E+ continuously or after gestation day 300 revealed numerous distended colloid filled thyroid follicles lined by flattened cuboidal epithelial cells. Mean plasma T3 concentrations were reduced in these foals. Foals from mares exposed to E+ continuously or from day 300 to foaling demonstrated a response to thyroid stimulating hormone (TSH) by showing improved mental alertness, desire to stand, and good suckle reflex

Brendemuehl (1995) collected colostrum from normal mares and tested it for IgG concentration. Foals from mares exposed to E+ fescue continuously or from gestation day 300 were administered 1L of the pooled, collected colostrum collections by nasogastric tube within one hour of birth. Compared to control foals not from E+ or E- fescue mares, these foals had decreased serum IgG concentrations. These data combined with other data suggest that foals from E+ mares receive less IgGs from the mare's milk and their absorption rate is lower even if the milk IgG levels are at or near normal levels. These factors, combined with the lower level of colostrum production in E+ mares explain why many foals from E+ mares quickly become septic. The lower colosstrum and nutrient intake from milk, especially IgG, probably accounts for many foal deaths from E+ mares which have live foals at birth. Brendemuehl et al. (1994) observed lower serum T3, ACTH, cortisol, and total progestogen levels in foals from E+ mares compared to foals from E- mares.

Figure 1. Effect of endophyte-infected fescue (E+) versus endophyte-free (E-) fescue on gestation length, foal mortality, agalactia, incidence of placental retention, and rebreeding response in mares (adapted from Monroe et al., 1988). Stars indicate difference between treatments (P < 0.05).

 

[Irish Hills Farm]

Parmela,

I'm so sorry you are going through this. All of you, including Goldie and her filly are in my thoughts and prayers.

 

[Miniv]

Is she becoming listless and sleeping right after she nurses? This may mean she's an "RH Factor" foal. Did your vet check for that? If so, and that's been ruled out, she may be what is commonly called a "sleeper". Newborns will outgrow it in a matter of days, normally. I hope that's what it is!

 

[ClickMini]

I am so sorry you are having to go through this. I lost my filly that had this, although she had a very difficult birth after a dystocia. 36 hours old was the critical time for us. If your filly starts having seizures, she probably has some swelling in her brain due to lack of oxygen. My vet was very aggressive with treatment. I can't remember everything they did, but I will tell you that our bills mounted up to the tune of about $1200/day. I will PM you with the name of my vet clinic if you want your vet to get ahold of them to see how they would treat this. My filly was very severely impaired, although at 24 hours old she looked totally normal. At 36 hours she crashed.

Sending big hugs and wishes for a quick recovery for Goldie's baby.

 

[Marty]

I don't know anything about this Parm, I'm so sorry I am of no help.

Hang in there lady.

 

[BlueStar]

Ours had seizures as well. We treated aggressivley as well and he got better and better until he was completely normal again for a couple weeks and then all of a sudden he began having gran maul (sp) seizures and had to be put down. If she does start looking better please still continue to be cautiously optimistic with her. If it is in fact a dummy foal situation, it can effect them at any time.

My thoughts and prayers are with you and you little ones, take care.

 

[RockRiverTiff]

I don't have any advice for you--just wanted to say how sorry I am you are going through this. I know many forum members have safely seen their dummy foals through the critical hours, and I will be praying the same for yours.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I hope your filly will be OK- I know how heart stopping this sort of thing can be.

That said this does not seem like a "dummy" to me- I had a dummy foal and the key factor was that he did not nurse- oxygen deprivation at birth.

If your Vet has not already done so have them perform the RH (Isoerythrolysis) test, even if it is only to rule it out.

If it does turn out to be pseudo dummy, then I would say if the foal is nursing you will be OK- the first 24 hours were critical with my colt.

He survived, BTW, hope your girl does too.

 

[wendi leigh]

How scary, and how awful for you and Goldie after such a long wait. I hope your little filly comes around quickly. Lots of prayers and hugs going out to her.

 

[Tami]

A friend of mine went through something like this in the mid 80's. Healthy foal that sounded just like yours, then got sluggish and they couldn't wake him up. His was a selenium deficiency. Once he had the shot he woke up and was fine. He went on to be a Reserve World Grand.

 

[Riverdance]

Parmala.

I am so sorry to hear you are having trouble. I know how much you have been looking forward to this foal. Hopefully she will be alright. IV's and atibiotics should help. The filly could have crashed because she just was not getting enought to eat. They can not go too long without food.

I had a colt that had an problem getting anything down. For the first 12 days he was fine, then one day he could not swallow his milk. All of his milk would come back up through his nose. After not being able to get anything past an obstruction in his throat (birth defect), he crashed during the night. Was very unstable the next AM and I rushed him to the vet. By the time I got there (only 30 minutes) he had totaly crashed. Same symtoms as your filly. With IV's he rallied just fine. Unfortunatly, the obsturction would not let him swallow and I had to put him down.

I guess what I am saying is, your filly sounds like she was not geting enought to eat and just crashed. Her low count would indicate that too. Hopefully with the vets help she will grow nice and strong.

Good luck and my thougths are with you.