Driving question

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KathyB

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I am fairly new to driving. Today we took my mini out for a drive. When he would trot, the shafts would bounce (alot). It could very well be due to that fact that we were on a dirt road and it had been raining recently. I just wanted to make sure that it has nothing to do with how he is harnessed to the cart. I have not had this problem in the past and I could not see that we had done anything differently. The only thing different was that we added air to the tires before we left.

Is there anyway to lessen the bounce?
 
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it would be better if you could post a photo of your horse harnessed so we could see if it's done correctly.. otherwise a cart that bounces a lot typically is a sign of being unbalanced. You will naturally get SOME bounce as a horses movement has suspension but it shouldn't be a horrible bounce.

Edited to add: ok I guess i should clarify. the shafts themselves shouldnt' be flopping around on their own but moving up and down with the natural movement of the horse as it goes up and down..otherwise there should be no bounce and the shafts should "float".
 
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My shafts NEVER bounce. But then, I tighten the shafts to the harness rather tightly. I do not like any slipping or bouncing that happens on trails. Some say I tighten too tight, but, I don't think that the cart should be able to slip forward or backward. I might be wrong in the tightness on the shafts but, it won't come off either.
 
Bouncing shafts aren't particularly comfortable for your horse as you've obviously noticed
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but I suppose you could say there are a couple of kinds of bouncing it could be. Were the shafts flopping up and down at the ends in a big motion, or more wiggling along the length of them? Boinky's right, a picture would be helpful if you could get one as it would show us things that could be contributing to the problem. Unfortunately with harnessing it's usually a combination of factors and you've got to eliminate them one by one until everything works. Some of us are just nuts enough to actually enjoy doing that!
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*LOL* Tweaking harness is often said to be a lifetime occupation because by the time you finally get it right for one horse/cart/harness, you change horses or get a new cart or so on and so forth!

One common cause of bouncing is the shafts set too low on the sides of the horse. This unbalances the cart and causes it to flop up and down with each stride. Another issue could be that the wrap straps are incorrectly adjusted. They are not meant to hold the cart on the horse or be tight like a riding girth, but having them too loose with a cart that isn't perfectly balanced can result in a very annoying rapid vibration as the cart bounces back and forth within the confines of the wrap. To me a wrap strap steadies the cart so that any flex between up and down is felt as a gentle shift in pressure rather than a slam in the belly or back. Ideally the cart literally floats within the tug loop and the wrap straps are only there to keep the shafts close on turns and prevent a flip up in case of emergency or on hills. The traces hold the cart on the horse and the breeching should hold it back off the horse.

Leia

Edited for typo
 
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Looks like you received some good input -- Leia stated what I am thinking --- but said it better than I would.

I am really responding more to bump this to the top --- to see if you have pictures.

Happy Holidays

JJay
 
No pics, but I will try to take some this weekend. We drove him again today and did not have the bouncing shafts. I think it has to do with how I am using the wrap straps. One loop vs wrapping it around the the tug. Any opinions on how it should be wrapped? Also, I am not using the breeching, should I be using it for light trail/dirt road driving? Thanks so much for all the help.
 
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Driving is a sport where people have mostly given up reinventing the wheel when it comes to trying new ways of attaching traditional harness to a traditional vehicle because it's been done for so long that the most efficient methods have long ago been discovered and used until they became the set way to do it.

So yes, I'd say there is a correct way to use wrap straps.
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I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "one loop vs. wrapping it around the tug" as I've seen new drivers call putting the wrap strap actually through the tug itself as "wrapping" it, so I'm going to describe the right way from scratch to make sure we aren't talking across each other here.

First, the purpose of the part: The harness system has three basic purposes- to pull the load forward, to hold the load back, and to turn the load. The wrap straps are part of the turning system and just as the tug loops keep the shafts up, the use of an overgirth or wrap straps keeps them down.

Now you aren't trying to rope them down like a recalcitrant steer so they can't move at all, you're just preventing them from actively riding up past where they should be. I want my wrap straps adjusted so that any flex between up and down is felt as a gentle shift in pressure rather than a slam in the belly or back. I don't want vibration annoying my horse and I don't want to see the shafts able to drift freely away from my horse's sides as he turns, something which forces him to work far harder and often allows the inside shaft to poke into his shoulder or want to ride up on his neck while he almost ducks under it.

Wrap straps serve as your intermediate braking system that comes into play between when the traces slacken and the breeching engages, or in the case of driving without breeching they are your primary braking system. (In that case you really need shaft stops on your cart so that there is a firm outward projection for you to wrap your straps around so the shafts can't just slip right through your tugs on a sudden halt.) Everything in harnessing is focused on establishing a balance so the cart moves smoothly and comfortably with the horse in any direction you should choose to send him without either restricting the horse unnecessarily or slopping around.

So now we come to How to Do That: If your cart has shaft stops (little pegs either welded to the frame on a metal cart or screwed into the side of a wooden one) you should push the shafts forward through the tugs until the peg butts up against the rear of the tug loop on each side. Not all carts have these; if yours doesn't, put the shafts through until the shaft tip is at the point of the shoulder when the tugs are hanging horizontally and set the shaft down in the tug. Do up your traces so if the horse startles forward the cart will not roll backwards out of the tug loops and crash to the ground. If you have breeching, do it up next so the cart also can't roll forward and bump into the horse's hind legs. Now take your first wrap strap and bring it up between the horse and the shaft in front of the tug loop. (The trace should be between the wrap strap and the horse.) You are going to bring the strap towards you over the top of the shaft and wrap it down and under the shaft again, bringing it up on the other side of the tug loop and behind the shaft stop if you have one. Now depending on your harness this may be all you're able to do. If you have excess strap you should wrap the strap a second time behind the tug and even a third time if you need to although if that's necessary your strap is too long. Regardless of whether you have one wrap or three, now you will take the strap forward again and tuck in under itself where it passed over the tug from front to back. Bring it down to the buckle and secure it. I will often leave the strap out of the keeper until I have done up the other side as some readjustment is often necessary. Repeat this process on the other side of the horse. You want the same number of wraps on each side if possible so spend some time figuring out how you need to do things for your particular cart and harness. After that first time you'll know how many wraps to take and what notch to tighten it to so you won't have to fuss as much.
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Tighten the overgirth until it's snug but not tight. You may want to walk the horse forward a step or two to help everything settle and make sure it's as tight as you want it. I also usually pull each of the horse's forelegs up and forward to make sure there's nothing pinching but that's a personal preference. Voila! You're ready to drive.

One tip I learned on here- if you don't have shaft stops, position the tugs so they are slightly ahead of vertical when the shaft is at the point of the shoulder. Then when the horse moves off they swing into vertical instead of behind it and it gives a better picture as well as making sure the horse is not pulling from the saddle.

The Regency Miniatures harnessing site has good pictures to illustrate what I was talking about with how to wrap the straps, I hope between the two of us you've gotten the help you need.
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Oh, and as far as if you need breeching for trail driving my answer would be yes. While a careful harnessing job can minimize the discomfort for the horse there's nothing quite as painful to watch as a horse whose cart is slamming them in the saddle every time they stop.
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ESPECIALLY without shaft stops, you really need breeching or you're risking an accident if the shafts ever slip on a downhill and allow the cart to roll up on the horse's heels.

Leia
 
I would add this link --- great instructions -- parts of the harness --- how to put harness on horse step by step and also -- how to hitch horse to cart.

http://www.regencymini.com/booklet/index.shtml

and this pdf file discusses how to balance the cart and how the shafts should look in the tugs when properly harnessed --

http://66.49.173.199/BarbLee/HITCHINGYOURHORSE.pdf

Still looking for one where you actually WRAP the shaft with the overgirth straps -- I know there is one out there.

JJay
 
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Okay .... so I've always used harnesses with wrap straps, or where the tug loop tightens down on the shaft. But my new harness has an attachment similar to the one on the Regency site, the strap attaches to the tug loop, instead of coming up from the overgirth. Are you not supposed to wrap it? How does it stay in place? Is this a dumb question? :DOH!
 
Okay .... so I've always used harnesses with wrap straps, or where the tug loop tightens down on the shaft. But my new harness has an attachment similar to the one on the Regency site, the strap attaches to the tug loop, instead of coming up from the overgirth. Are you not supposed to wrap it? How does it stay in place? Is this a dumb question? :DOH!
Just remember only the questions that go unasked are dumb as they lead to problems!

Now if I have this right., and there's no guarantee I do, what you have is called a French tug. It doesn't "wrap". Put the shaft thru the loop; tighten it by pulling the free end and put that end into the bottom buckle attached to the under girth. Clear as mud.

Anyway I have these and had my doubts about them too but properly adjusted (top and bottom buckles) so the shafts lay horizontal or just above horizontal and they work great.
 
One loop vs wrapping it around the the tug. Any opinions on how it should be wrapped? Also, I am not using the breeching, should I be using it for light trail/dirt road driving? Thanks so much for all the help.
The britching (breeching) should be used if you are going up/down inclines, hills, etc.

One caution: do not wrap the traces to the shaft with your tie down strap. Run the strap inside the shaft (and the trace line), take as many wraps as necessary, then run the strap outside of the trace and on down to the buckle.
 
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Okay .... so I've always used harnesses with wrap straps, or where the tug loop tightens down on the shaft. But my new harness has an attachment similar to the one on the Regency site, the strap attaches to the tug loop, instead of coming up from the overgirth. Are you not supposed to wrap it? How does it stay in place? Is this a dumb question? :DOH!
Just remember only the questions that go unasked are dumb as they lead to problems!

Now if I have this right., and there's no guarantee I do, what you have is called a French tug. It doesn't "wrap". Put the shaft thru the loop; tighten it by pulling the free end and put that end into the bottom buckle attached to the under girth. Clear as mud.

Anyway I have these and had my doubts about them too but properly adjusted (top and bottom buckles) so the shafts lay horizontal or just above horizontal and they work great.
There's a difference between French Tugs and open tugs. French tugs are the ones that snug down around the shaft and then buckle into the overgirth while an open tug is a perfectly normal tug loop that has a strap attached to the bottom of it which buckles into the overgirth. An open tug absolutely must be used with breeching as you are correct, there's nothing to hold it in place.
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Open tug loops are very much a carriage driving setup where they expect that you will be pulling the cart from the traces, braking with the breeching, and that the shafts will be floating nicely because the cart is balanced. And in that setup they are great as they allow the horse to float right along with none of the jolts or bumping transferred to his back at all. But if you tried to use that without breeching or in a typical show setup where things are usually arranged so the traces are a bit loose, well, I don't think you'd make it more than a few steps before the shafts slipped. I like the idea of open tugs and certainly the simplicity of not having to wrap but since I show both ways I've chosen to get wrap straps on all my harnesses. French tugs are an interesting alternative but I've heard on here that they can rub the patent shaft trim pretty badly and it doesn't sound like they'd allow much movement of the shaft when they are tight enough to safely work as brakes. The new Ozark Mtn. fancy show harness that I plan to buy says it has French tugs but looking at the pictures it appears to be an open tug (i.e. doesn't snug down on the shaft) and I may ask them for wrap straps instead. At least that way I can adjust the amount of play the shafts are allowed without compromising the tightness of the grip on the shaft.

I'm open to correction on the French tugs by the way, they are one thing I have yet to see in person!

One caution: do not wrap the traces to the shaft with your tie down strap. Run the strap inside the shaft (and the trace line), take as many wraps as necessary, then run the strap outside of the trace and on down to the buckle.
The traces ideally should run freely down the side of the horse with no interference at all from the wrap straps, breeching or anything else. It should never be run through the overgirth in any way, rather it should lie in the clear space between the wraps and the horse.

Leia
 
French tugs are an interesting alternative but I've heard on here that they can rub the patent shaft trim pretty badly and it doesn't sound like they'd allow much movement of the shaft when they are tight enough to safely work as brakes.
Leia, my Lutke has french tugs, I haven't had any problem with my patent getting rubbed although I don't do them up super tight either, I think it would be uncomfortable for the horse. I have shaft stops on my cart to help work as brakes so it doesn't need to extremely tight-keeping in mind I am using this strictly in the showring.
 

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