Deafness in a Driving Prospect

[shelterwood]

Hi everybody!

To avoid being repetitious, I'm going to ask that you go over to the main forum and see my recent post about deafness in my overo mare Sissy, who is coming 3 and a lovely little driving prospect. It has been a long time of suspicion, but over time and with my research today, I think it's fair to say that my girl is at the very least partially hearing impaired.

My question to you folks is what your gut, or actual experiences if you've had any, tells you about the odds of a deaf horse making a safe, reliable driving horse. My aspirations are for extensive trail use, much of the time needing to drive 1 mile down my quiet road to my trails. She has been on this road a lot already in hand and ground driving and has never batted an eye. With the recent addition of blinkers to her equipment repertoire, however, she has become lost on our property to my cues. Obviously, to avoid depleting her senses any further, I am immediately going back to an open bridle, which has been working for her so far, and not putting blinkers on her again. I'm a little sick thinking of how lost she must have been in these few sessions with blinkers, unable to see me for cues. She responds to bit pressure well for turns and stops. No idea how I'm gonna cue her to "stand" though....any thoughts? This has always been a challenge for her, and I chalked it up to age, never pushing her for long stands. Now I know why she doesn't "get it" though, and needs some movement with the "walk-up" cue to respond. I'm going to have to rethink my whip cues and use those to my best advantage. Amazing we have come as far as we have.....maybe ignorance is a good thing and in me not treating her any differently, we made decent progress. I'll have to keep that in mind.

It occurs to me that the Hyperbike may have some benefit here, perhaps I could cue her with my hands on her butt, or even my feet on her sides.....

Any thoughts on hitching her EVENTUALLY as a pairs horse? Maybe she would be comforted by an experienced partner and that could take some of the risk out of driving her. I'm just thinking out loud here....

Any thoughts anyone has please share, and especially experiences, links, resources, etc.

Thanks!!

Katie

PS: here's my girl

 

[Molly's Run Minis]

you could try training her useing hand signals. just a thought i had

 

[disneyhorse]

I'm not sure I'd feel safe driving a deaf horse but all animals can learn any cues an compensate for their lack of some abilities.

As for cues, don't forget you can have a whip. A gentle tap on the rump can be sufficient to ask her to walk on or speed up. Your whip and reins are actually as important as your voice so if you're proficient enough to use them it should make up for anything.

 

[susanne]

I'm sure you're already planning this, but I'd take her very, very slowly and continue to build her trust in you, both in and out of the cart. It's possible she will never be confident enough for the road or trail, but you could still have a great time in a controlled environment such as an indoor or outdoor arena. There are many things you can do there, including obstacle driving, cones and driven dressage.

One thing you could do now is in-hand obstacle and in-hand jumping. Both of these will develop your communication and trust in one another.

 

[shelterwood]

Susanne,

I have been working slowly with her, because she demanded that (and now I know why!!). Just seemed she didn't GET things.......well, I guess! What I've been working on is trying to find some basic hand signals that I could use to begin to try to communicate while leading her and eventually lunging or long lining. Anyone have any experience training any animal with hand signals? A deaf dog perhaps? Or any resources that talk about hand signals? I'm guessing I would need just a few.....one to initiate forward movement, one to slow forward movement, and one to stop for now. They will need to be big movements so she can differentiate them from a distance, and highly variable so she understands the difference between them. I'm hoping that by introducing hand signals then transferring them to bit pressure, maybe I can work out a system so she can be driven and actually understand what I'm asking. Any thoughts?

Katie

 

[Shari]

I train all my horse's to move with hand signals.

They are not deaf, ok well sometimes, like all little fur kids, they can have selective hearing.

I use hand signals due to my health. Also gets them to pay close attention to me.

In my case, I also train with voice commands but that will not help you.

I point at a hip, they move that hip away from me, stand in front of them, put the flat of my hand up facing them, they are to back..anyway you get the idea.... its pretty easy and they do tend to catch on quick.

But you have to be very consistent with your hand signals.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Susanne,

I have been working slowly with her, because she demanded that (and now I know why!!). Just seemed she didn't GET things.......well, I guess! What I've been working on is trying to find some basic hand signals that I could use to begin to try to communicate while leading her and eventually lunging or long lining. Anyone have any experience training any animal with hand signals? A deaf dog perhaps? Or any resources that talk about hand signals? I'm guessing I would need just a few.....one to initiate forward movement, one to slow forward movement, and one to stop for now. They will need to be big movements so she can differentiate them from a distance, and highly variable so she understands the difference between them. I'm hoping that by introducing hand signals then transferring them to bit pressure, maybe I can work out a system so she can be driven and actually understand what I'm asking. Any thoughts?

Katie

Horses are very aware of even small movements. If a mare just flicks her ear the horses next to her know exactly what she means and respond promptly. Many dogs are trained using hand signals and most high level obedience dogs respond to hand signals. I trained my bullmastiffs with many hand signals (raised pointer finger meant sit, flat hand for down a beckoning sign for come etc) not because they were deaf but because my daughter was non verbal and I wanted her to be able to comunicate with them. They learned easily and I'm sure your horse who has many generations of animals who relied on being very aware of their surroundings to survive, will learn even faster. Just be consistant and she will catch on. After all, she wasn't born able to speak or understand words and so won't miss the use of them.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Exactly. You don't need big signals- just like any horse, she's super alert to body posture and should do fine on most commands from a combination of your body language and bit cues. The cues I'm going to have to think about are the ones for standing still when you're ground-driving (and thus are behind her and can't give her the normal flat-of-the-palm "Stay" signal in front of her nose) and cues for making upward transitions. When leading or lunging she'll do it off your posture or your own actions, but how to communicate it clearly while driving? Your whip will probably be a big part of it but you don't want her to anticipate or jump forward. Normally we collect the reins a little before walking off, I'd think you could make collecting them and then a light flick of the whip lash mean that fairly easily. (You'll want a whip with a real lash, not a short dressage whip you can only hit her with.) For upward gait transitions couldn't you make a special cue, a double half-halt or moment of holding her more "together," etc., that warns her then flick the whip again to give her the signal to go? If she hadn't gotten that signal she'll know she only needs to move faster without changing gait. I'm thinking here of a non-verbal version of my marathon commands for Kody; when I want him to switch gears from measured trotting to running hazards, I say "Kody, are you ready? Okay, let's go! Canter!" and he knows to take off running. Without that key phrase before hand, he'd better not break gait. The double half-halt or whatever you chose would take the place of that "permissive phrase" that lets her break gait.

If I were you I'd do some research on how clicker trainers handle deafness, training deaf horses in general and probably how to handle deaf dogs as well. The principles should be the same with some adaptations for species-specific requirements but I've never faced it and don't know what the answers are off the top of my head.

I'd imagine you could easily drive her in a pair as she can follow the other horse's lead in what to do, but be aware that delay while she follows instead of moving out at the same time can be very frustrating and might be dangerous if the other mare brings the cart up on her heels before she gets going. Hopefully before you got to that point you'd have worked out your signals for driving her single though so it might not be a problem. It is almost impossible to cue an individual horse in a pair without use of your voice though, so she'll have to be very attuned to the whip and the other horse very non-reactive to the whip constantly moving. You'd need to always cue her first so she has time to process the command while you ask the other horse verbally to walk on. If you touch her with the whip after you've already spoken to the other horse, she'll lag and get frustrated.

The more I'm thinking about this, couldn't you use a scritching to tell her to stand? Most horses relax and calm down when you scratch their rumps or necks a certain way, so why couldn't you use that as the basis of a cue? A brief and particular "scratch scratch" of the fingers or whip stock means don't move, then collecting the reins again, half-halting and a flick of the whip means to move on. I'd think the Hyperbike would be almost ideal for driving a deaf horse as you could be in full touch communication constantly with very little effort. Teach her by scritching then correcting when she attempts to move off, scritching again and then after she's stood a moment, ask her to move off purposefully. She'd figure it out! We (or I, at least) tend to think horses don't do very well with commands of long duration such as "Stay" with a person out of sight but they are quite capable of learning that a command means to do a certain thing until told otherwise. They do it all the time with walking or trotting! You just need to teach her that the scritching or whatever MEANS something, and show her what you want. I think the hardest part for me would be finding a way to praise her without being able to use your voice or touch, and that's where finding out about deafness training would help.

Leia

 

[paintponylvr]

Leia and MiLo said what I was thinking soooo much better.

I will add that some full size riding horse trainers use little to no verbal cuing, so I don't think you'd have a problem once you develop you own form of touch or rein cues for starting and halting. I'd think that if you'd like her to see what you are doing more fully - you could teach her to drive w/o blinders both single and as a pair...

Before driving my pair (s), I wouldn't have understood the "lag & frustration" that Leia mentions - but yes, that could happen. It happens with a pair that is green and one responds instantly and the other takes a bit to get moving or to halt. But again, develop you own cues so that you reduce that happenstance and I don't see why you couldn't quite happily drive as a pair with your girls as well as single.

 

[susanne]

With a HyperBike, perhaps you could adjust the stirrups in order to use your legs, somewhat like riding. In addition to scritches, other touches could also be used as well.

As far as hand signals, just be sure your signals are distinct and not confused with everyday gestures. I think the hand up with flat palm could work fine from behind as well as from the front.

It's also very possible that she may have some slight hearing, or she may feel vibrations. I would make a practice of always talking to her in addition to your other signals. If nothing else, it would likely be soothing.

(Does anyone remember the old Saturday Night Live skit where they had the "interpreter" the hard of hearing -- he just repeated the news in a SHOUT. Hehe...you might be very annoying if you tried that!)

 

[shelterwood]

Thanks everyone!

Great suggestions. Leia, I think what maybe I need to do is go get some real instruction in driven dressage, as this may be the best way to learn to use half halts and other subtle bit and whip cues for direction. I'll readily admit I don't have these skills. I have a very basic understanding of half halts, and a little better understanding of use of my whip, but could progress leaps and bounds I'm sure.

In terms of the whole "stand" issue, I like the suggestion of possibly using a scratch on the behind as a cue. This could be done from the ground extensively. It's odd, but she does know how to stand, not even sure how she figured it out! Probably my body language alone. I'm pretty sure she's stone cold deaf, BTW, as much as I'd love it if she could hear me shout! Get all my anger and frustration out from my day while I drive!! WALK!!! TROT!!! WHOA!!! Susanne, you think she could see my open palm cue to stand from behind? I'm thinking I need a cue to get her attention on me.....

Well, thanks for the encouragement that she could eventually drive as a pair. This will be literally YEARS from now, as I have a long way to go with this little project. I am most definitely getting a Hyperbike, and the idea that some cues with touch will be in reach gives me an idea where to start. For those of you with one, would you be able to use your feet like a riding horse to signal upward transitions?

Katie

 

[Christie]

Hi! First let me say... Good for you for your willingness to give this special girl the time and effort to be your driving friend.

She will repay you, over and over again. She will make you a better horse owner/trainer/driver with what she will teach you!

I do not have a deaf horse but I do have 2 youngish hearing impaired ( one bilaterally deaf) dogs and one old guy that's gone deaf. I can tell you, that training is communication between her and you. You already are noticing what she's telling you. My bilaterally deaf dog, is 2 1/2 years old. s The only one of our pups I didn't have Baer tested ( hearing)

as I knew she couldn't hear at all. It was very, very certain. She is always looking to me watching for even facial expressions for communications. I agree hand signals, or any body

language signals doesn't need to be large. Vibrating collars are recommended for training deaf pups to get their attention. I bought one but for our girl I've never needed.

We kept another pup from that litter, and she watches her. Once she knows to look my direction I have 100% of her attention. She has been the easiest, smartest dog I'veever owned. I wouldn't hesitate to train a deaf horse after my experience with our Rose. You may try a vibration collar, refashioned to her harness to remind her to stand. She would need to be taught what the vibration was all about, but it is a gentle touch, I think it would be easy to apply it to a deaf driving horse. It would only be useable for one of your signals but I think standing would be a good one.

 

[shelterwood]

Wow Christie thanks!

That is great advice and really an interesting idea about the vibrating collar. True, it would need to be for one and only one cue, but you are right that stand might be the most important. Thank you so much for the links!

I think it has been misinterpreted a bit what I said about using "large" hand signals. To put it better, I think I was trying to say that with lunging and long lining, I may just need to exaggerate my cues and body language at first, and make the cues very different from one another so she wasn't confused. Good to know though that everyone agrees that overall, the cues can be subtle too.

In terms of standing, I'm thinking back to my reining horse days and feeling like I never, or rarely, actually said "stand". It was a cue of default, like you stand still until I tell you otherwise. It was done in saddle from bit contact and body weight, and in one of my horses, leg cueing. So I'm hoping that if I start from the the lead line with an open palm gesture, and transition that to bit pressure from the ground as well, and always use a touch cue of some sort to re-initiate movement, that it will eventually become a default cue when I signal her to halt from bit pressure alone. Right now she does actually get this from ground driving, and in fact, I never could understand why I was always having to rely solely on bit contact for a downward transition, as I always use a voice command prior to physical cue. Now I know.

She also already knows that whip contact on hips means to step around on the hind and contact on the shoulders means to step around on the fore. I need to differentiate these cues from my cue to walk on or have an upward transition, any thoughts? Maybe move my point of contact for lateral movement down and my forward cue up towards the top of her back. Any further ideas and suggestions are oh so welcome!!

Katie

 

[Christie]

Let's face it if you don't need another appliances all the better and I have every reason to believe, with your consistancy she can learn different cues from different locations of contact. She will quickly learn and trust your signals and she will want to, it's all about consistancy. You know that.. You are well on your way. I'm looking forward to hearing updates.