Color help please :)
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rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
No, "overo" is an obsolete term from before colour testing was available that people used to describe every pattern except Tobiano. As Reo says, it should only be applied, these days, to Frame. Your filly is Splash base, but may well have Frame as well, there is no limit to the number of patterns they can have.
No, splash is not overo, it is a pinto pattern that is mistakenly called overo, which is terribly confusing for some people. I know I used to call it overo too, but technically overo is frame and only frame. Same goes for sabino-a pinto pattern. A frame overo is LWO positive and if a horse tests negative then it is not overo. You must have LWO for frame. If a horse visually resembles a frame overo, but tests negative then you probably have some splash/sabino going on that looks somewhat similar.
(Jane beat me to it!)
(Jane beat me to it!)
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rabbitsfizz
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horsehug
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I am always learning
.
I had not heard that the three accepted overos of the past were no longer considered as such until this post. So I wrote to my Color Guru, Carolyn Shepard (head of the ICHR, but also Extremely knowledgeable of pinto patterns as well as so much about color genetics in general.... having devoted most of her life to it.
).
This was her explanation to me and it was very good so I thought I'd share it:
"You know, in the last ten years, with the advent of testing, this
area has gotten really muddled. Before testing, there was tobiano,
and there was overo. Frame, sabino, splash were all considered overo
- as they were not tobiano. Then when we got more specific, and could
tell some of the patterns apart, there has been a tendency to call
frame "frame overo" and in many places I've seen "overo" to mean only
frame. So there's a change afoot. Used to be correct to call all
non-tobianos "overo," but now, only in certain instances......
If you are registering a horse with APHA or PtHA, the non-tobianos
are still called overo. So it's a six of one and half a dozen of the
other thing.
What I do now is call the horse by the pattern it carries. I
pretty much don't use the word "overo." I'll call the horse frame, or
splashed white, or a frame-splash combo, or whatever I think the horse
might be. Often with "looks like" as some of the patterns certainly
overlap.
So as long as PtHA and APHA call the non-tobianos "overo," then
it's not really incorrect to follow suit. But there are a growing
number of horse color aficionados who do consider frame the "only"
overo, and you will come across more and more of them.
So you did not learn wrong. Times are a' changin'.
C "
Susan O.
I had not heard that the three accepted overos of the past were no longer considered as such until this post. So I wrote to my Color Guru, Carolyn Shepard (head of the ICHR, but also Extremely knowledgeable of pinto patterns as well as so much about color genetics in general.... having devoted most of her life to it.
This was her explanation to me and it was very good so I thought I'd share it:
"You know, in the last ten years, with the advent of testing, this
area has gotten really muddled. Before testing, there was tobiano,
and there was overo. Frame, sabino, splash were all considered overo
- as they were not tobiano. Then when we got more specific, and could
tell some of the patterns apart, there has been a tendency to call
frame "frame overo" and in many places I've seen "overo" to mean only
frame. So there's a change afoot. Used to be correct to call all
non-tobianos "overo," but now, only in certain instances......
If you are registering a horse with APHA or PtHA, the non-tobianos
are still called overo. So it's a six of one and half a dozen of the
other thing.
What I do now is call the horse by the pattern it carries. I
pretty much don't use the word "overo." I'll call the horse frame, or
splashed white, or a frame-splash combo, or whatever I think the horse
might be. Often with "looks like" as some of the patterns certainly
overlap.
So as long as PtHA and APHA call the non-tobianos "overo," then
it's not really incorrect to follow suit. But there are a growing
number of horse color aficionados who do consider frame the "only"
overo, and you will come across more and more of them.
So you did not learn wrong. Times are a' changin'.
C "
Susan O.
Reignmaker Miniatures
Well-Known Member
horsehug, thank you, that was very clear. In my world all 3 non tobiano paterns (yes for those who are thinking to remind, I know that sabino is thought to be more than one single pattern 
) are called overo. I'm getting kinda set in my ways and it will be a challenge for me to change that.
) are called overo. I'm getting kinda set in my ways and it will be a challenge for me to change that.
paintponylvr
Well-Known Member
O, Horsehug, thank you. That is an explanation that is much easier to understand and also to "deal with". Especially when she admitted that the "biggie's" registries (APHA & PtHA) still use the Overo terminology...
I, too, am getting set in my ways. Which isn't so good on some hands, because i understand that the genetics of colors are constantly changing and I DO love it (how would I be able to find out about my silvers, afterall??). But I was confused and rather upset, for some reason, with the Overo "term" being dropped.
I don't have a problem with using the patterns - hehehehe - especially since I already use it with "Tobiano". That makes sense! I'm getting ready to have one of my Tobiano mares tested to see if she carries Sabino as well... since one of her fillies has a HUGE apron face (w/ silver pawprints on her forehead). Koalah is the mares' name and Flashi is the filly.
Now to relearn about the Appaloosa patterns! I know that when i was a teen, there were 7 accepted patterns. But lately I haven't been able to pull them up in my mind and I don't think I've seen them listed as 7 different ones lately. Surprisingly - breed (Appaloosa & POA) websites don't have much on the patterns that I've found! If I was to go with smaller mini (s), I'd love to have some appie spots!! I've even seen some in my beloved SILVER coloration - YIPPEE.
I, too, am getting set in my ways. Which isn't so good on some hands, because i understand that the genetics of colors are constantly changing and I DO love it (how would I be able to find out about my silvers, afterall??). But I was confused and rather upset, for some reason, with the Overo "term" being dropped.
I don't have a problem with using the patterns - hehehehe - especially since I already use it with "Tobiano". That makes sense! I'm getting ready to have one of my Tobiano mares tested to see if she carries Sabino as well... since one of her fillies has a HUGE apron face (w/ silver pawprints on her forehead). Koalah is the mares' name and Flashi is the filly.
Now to relearn about the Appaloosa patterns! I know that when i was a teen, there were 7 accepted patterns. But lately I haven't been able to pull them up in my mind and I don't think I've seen them listed as 7 different ones lately. Surprisingly - breed (Appaloosa & POA) websites don't have much on the patterns that I've found! If I was to go with smaller mini (s), I'd love to have some appie spots!! I've even seen some in my beloved SILVER coloration - YIPPEE.
DEFINITELY learn the appy stuff from the Appaloosa Project. It will cost a small fee, but it is the most educational and up to date. I also got the "forum" where one of their researchers (Sheila Archer) answers all questions and posts teaching seminars. There is LP and PATN to learn about now
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
Well, the Sabino test only tests Sab1, so she could test negative and still be/have Sabino. IMO it is not worth the money.....
paintponylvr
Well-Known Member
rabbitsfizz
Well-Known Member
Ti explain further, PPL, as you seem surprised, the Sabino gene is polygenous, meaning it is complex, there is only one form of Sabino that can be tested for, SB1, but many horses that exhibit phenotypical sabino markings test negative for SB1.
It is not known at this time how many different genes may be expressing as what we call sabino. This is why we do not think it worth while testing for this gene. A few people that breed specifically Pintos, and are pretty sure their foals will be Sab1 anyway, always test for this as, if you are buying Pinto, the more patterns you have and have tested for, the better. Hope this helps clear up any confusion?
It is not known at this time how many different genes may be expressing as what we call sabino. This is why we do not think it worth while testing for this gene. A few people that breed specifically Pintos, and are pretty sure their foals will be Sab1 anyway, always test for this as, if you are buying Pinto, the more patterns you have and have tested for, the better. Hope this helps clear up any confusion?
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