Appaloosa V/S Dilute.

[MyMenagerie]

Ok, so I live way out in the boonies and the number of "mini people" in this area is very limited. When I originally got into breeding my minis, my intentions were to breed for Appaloosa.

Got myself 3 exceptionally nice A/R mares and a very "typey" A/R stallion. Mares are all solid dilutes; 2 palominos, 1 silver buckskin. Figured that conformation & pedigree were more important than them being appaloosa, and also figured that the dilute appy babies would be more popular than "normal" colored appy babies. Stallion is a sorrel varnish roan with tons of spots & has produced about 90% appy foals when bred to solid mares. These combinations have produced some very nice show-quality babies.

But, now I'm wondering if venturing into the Appy market is maybe limiting my sales abilities with the foals. So I'm seriously considering replacing my stallion with a Cream-Dilute stallion and breeding for dilutes instead. My thinking is that overall, Dilutes seem to be more recognized, popular and in-demand than Appaloosa's. It seems like Appys are maybe sort of a "fad" and I'm afraid maybe I'm going in the wrong direction for producing saleable babies. Am I correct in thinking this way? Or am I off-base & do you think I should stick with the program I've currently got set up?

I do love my appys, but I need the babies to be saleable as well, and I'm wondering if I'm limiting myself too much by having a color (appy) that seems to have a smaller & very specific group of people interested in it.

I know there are lots of things to take into consideration when breeding, and in choosing breeding stock. Conformation being #1. And I do carefully take those things into account. But right now I'm looking at the "color aesthetics".

Also, I am limiting myself to having a small number of minis, so that I can control the care & handling they get & give them the best of everything that I can. So I am not open to having more than one stallion, and do not plan to get any additional mares. So my breeding program has to be very specific.

I guess my base-question is, do you think the appy-bred (possibly dilute appy, given the fact my mares are all dilutes) babies, or the solid dilute babies would be more saleable overall? Would you recommend that I stick with the program I already have set up, or do you think taking it in the direction of dilutes would benefit it?

Not looking to get flamed here....just want some "what would you do" insight & opinions.

Thanks!

 

[Riverdance]

When breeding, one should always go for conformation over color. There is also a smaller market for the Appaloosa.

Some people go for the black and white pinto, some like the Overos. But when one limits themselves to just one color or marking, you are limiting yourself to one type of buyer.

Keep your better Apps, but also be open to other colors and strive for the best conformation you can get.

 

[disneyhorse]

What sort of market are you going for? I haven't heard of people buying only a specific color?

Usually it's the quality range people breed for... either the $500 pets for local families and kids, or show quality horses that are marketable across the country? Something along that lines?

As for local family buyers, I've never heard of any being particularly picky about color. Usually it IS the pintos that really catches people's eye I would venture a guess... but I have had SEVERAL people that are new into the minis, that I've helped find horses for, get solid black or chestnut. Usually in those cases, people are mostly looking for personality, training, and quality.

I'd stick with your nicer horses, and buy good quality horses regardless of color. And with a diverse range of color, maybe you will have better luck with finding buyers (you will have pinto, appy, solid, who knows.)

I just am wondering what your "market" is. With good quality horses, NO color is a "fad". I've seen appies win, pintos, solids, in all divisions!

Personally, I prefer solids!

Andrea

 

[Sue_C.]

You already have dilute mares, so to go with a dilute stallions, you take the chance of "losing" colour, as you could very well end up with a lot cremello and perlino foals. So, if you like the stallion you have...keep him, and get some more dilute mares with no appy blood in them.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

Sue just made the point I was going to, so I agree with her!

I would go for a Pinto or a Pintaloosa, if you are going to swap Stallions, if you are adding a stallion I would go for an H/Z Pinto, if possible with Silver.

If you are going for (well conformed) pretty foals, the more pattern , the better.

Since your mares are A/R you could go for either end of the market, the larger animals would be heading for the driving/leadline market, the smaller ones for the "Aaah, isn't she cute" market!!

 

[Jill]

Conformation of course is concern number 1. That said, what I've done is concentrate a lot of our breeding stock on dilute horses with strong Buckeroo lines. I'm happy with how it's been going

You will find, I think, that there is fairly limited interest in appy minis when contrasted with those who like buckskins, palominos, etc.

 

[kaykay]

We all know conformation is first and my belief is a great horse is any color. I still get teased about having a solid grey filly out in my pasture of pinto's and overo's LOL.

Now having said that I am a firm believer in breeding what you like and are passionate about because your the one that has to feed it and look at it everyday. If you are passionate about what you are doing other people will be drawn to you and your horses. You have to decide for yourself are you passionate about appys? Or dilutes? Or ???

A great horse will sell no matter what color it is but you have to market, promote and advertise etc.

I have found the best advertising money to be showing what we breed. No better bang for the buck. But we also market online and advertise in the Journal.

Good luck no matter what you decide!

Kay

 

[Lucky-C-Acres-Minis]

I think that if you could successfully breed well conformed, colored dilute appy foals you would find a selling market.. I've lost track of how many times I've heard someone say that they'd love to have a loud spotted/blanketed buckskin appy.. For me, the hardest thing about breeding the appies was finding breeding stock within the height range I wanted (31-34"), most of the ones I came across were well over 34", and finding/getting COLOR, while varnish roans help give some wild patterns when combined with the others, it does tend to eventually wipe them out and people tend to steer away from that.. If it was easy to get horses with Piano Man and Catch's color/look then I think appies would be SOOO much "bigger" (both in showing and in demand) than they are

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Here is the problem when people try to breed for color. 1 out of 10 foals more then likely will have color, the rest will be solid. Sure appies are harder to sell and show. But whats interesting is you mentioned fads. Right now I think appies are selling right now, why, because there are some people that have appies and that are going out there and showing them and are doing well with them. The one horse that comes to mind is Lost Spokes Winter Dream Catcher. I really like this stallion, you see him everywhere, he halters and drives thats my kind of stallion and I'm not a big fan of appies. The overos were really hot back in the day, then IMO the dilutes and now the appies, I guarantee its going to change on who is winning in the show ring.

Also everyone has to admit it color sells and I really think appy and pinto really helps. Cause if they are LOUD people are going to have a hard time looking past the color. So if you are looking at dilutes you really have to have good conformation there cause there isn't much to hide and especially horses like perlinos they just scream at you if you horse has something conformationally wrong with it.

Here is the way I look at it if I see a pretty app with good conformation I'll buy it, same goes with pinto, dilute, sorrel, black, grey, etc... You get my drift. Same should go with everyone conformation should come first. I put color last. Also you should just breed for what you want.

 

[HGFarm]

I have been breeding a few Appaloosa to Appaloosa Minis since 1995 and I have rarely had trouble selling the foals! MOST were sold before or by weaning age! Quality is first and foremost over color. A good horse is a good horse, no matter what color it is. My color percentage is much higher than 1 in 10- some were born solid with characteristics and started to color after a few months I am not sure where those stats came from.

I do not breed to dilute colors, or for dilute colors. The reason being the contrast in color is not strong enough. People seem to want an Appaloosa that is easily recognizable a long way away.... something that stands out in a crowd. A black, bay, chestnut, etc.... have high contrast with any white markings they may have. A buckskin, palomino, etc.... is often so pale that it is difficult to tell the color contrast.

Also, I breed Appaloosa to Appaloosa to try to strenghten those genes, not dilute them with other colors or solid colors. Breeding to non Appy mares reduces the chance of getting color by 50%.

I know many people (not just in the Appy world) who dont like dilute colors either, so again your market is limited. I also know folks who dont like pintos or grays, or overos, chestnuts, etc..... so no matter what, you are always going to cater to a particular market, no matter how nice your horses are.

 

[ClickMini]

HGFarm, I completely agree with you. I LOVE apps, but I want a strong contrast, no dilute. There is a great article about Appaloosa patterns in the latest Miniature World Showcase. Myself, I love anything solid with a good blanket and strong spotting.

Good luck with your program, but if you love apps I would stick with them and try to create the best you can. Some farms that spring to my mind off the bat that are doing it right are Lost Spoke, Critter Creek, and KPM Honeypony.

 

[Tab]

This struck such a chord with me. Color breeding kind of makes me sad, just because of all the fads that come and then go. We do all have our favorites, and that is wonderful! I love tobiano pintos, but we would still have a herd of solids if color hadn't been in the genes. Solids were what I thought I started out with!

Grays were popular at one time because they looked very Arabian like. The problem was that the graying gene, well, turned every basecoat color gray. Then appys, then dilutes were in vogue, then LWO. Silver at one time considered a thing of beauty has had its own share of controversy. Silver may also come back into popularity. I'm hoping lol.

Breed your best first, the colors and types that you love best, and none of us ought to give such a hoot about color because it is a fickle thing. If our horses are good they should be saleable regardless of the color!

I love horses of all colors, but I suppose the trouble with appys or pintos is that if the markings are in the wrong areas this can change their overall appearance. Spots can make shoulders look shallow and backs too long.

BUT If you love appys you ought to stay true to what catches your eye the most! I have seen some beautiful apps! Wishing you the best

 

[MindyLee]

I breed for movement and confermation as well as color too. I personally like anything with dark points & roans, so in my herd of 7. I have...

3 bays (1 is roaned)

3 buckskins (2 are roaned)

1 silver dapple

My 2 favorite colors are bays and buckskins so when I started my herd, show & breeding stock, I looked for wonderful horses in the colors I liked. I made sure they would be great crosses to cross well for confermation, movement, few good bloodlines, and of corse color. I have been very happy so far with my foals and the colors they came out.

If your spending the $$$ and you like a particular color, then go for it BUT remember that confermation is the key factor to that horse. If you like appys, then go for it! Look at some of our appy progams out there. There are some really really nice ones. (Lost Spokes, DRK, Dark Star, Toyland, Castle Rock, & so many more) to name a few.

I like the bays and buckskins, BUT that has never ever stoped me from looking at pintos, appys, dapples, and other colors I dont normally care for, cause if its a nice horse, Its a nice horse with a different color. And thats where my silver dapple came from who I love very much and is one of my best mares in the herd. (Plus out produces herself to boot!)

 

[Reble]

I love to see someone with a program, just not buying and selling.

I believe without a program, conformation sometimes gets lost.

Do what you love and want in your program than go out an sell it...

You have to believe your horses are the BEST

 

[Dontworrybeappy]

Thanks, Amy!

I do buy for a specific color - and breed for a VERY specific color - Silver dapple black Appaloosas. It's MY pet project, (not "pet" quality!) and I get to do what I want!

That said, I have several solid mares, because I believe they will add the qualities I'm looking for, UNDER the color! This way, if I don't get the color I want, I've still produced a horse with solid conformation, fabulous movement, pretty heads, good necks and always, always, good personalities and even temperaments.

I joke that I'm breeding for a matched set of horses to have a Stagecoach team!

Keeping my color focus narrow lets me say NO to all those other nice minis that I'd probably want to get even if they didn't contribute to my stagecoach horses!

Appy is doing a wonderful job with his babies, passing on his motion and attitude, his correctness and even his color! He's an AMHR HOF horse in halter, close to his HOF in driving, and was a high point driving horse in our AMHA club last year. He's taking some time off to breed mares and be my trail driving horse. I hitch him up and we take the Great Dane, Anatolian and at least one extra horse along for a few miles on the trail - we're a neighborhood sensation with the "Dog & Pony Show"!

As a breeder for the last 30+ years (and in Arabians, I have impressive statistics), I have always believed that you have to have a vision and stick to it. This MUST include breeding for a solid horse - sound of body and mind... but after that, you breed for what you love. If you're trying to capture the changing fads of the sales market, you're better off breeding fancy rats or rabbits, because what the "market" loves changes way too quickly for breeding horses! By the time you've got one on the ground, the fickle finger of fate has pointed to another color, another fad.

But if you breed for the type you love and begin to produce a consistent "product" - people with similar visions will find you and seek you out (providing your horses are proving themselves, and providing you advertise enough so that people know where to find you!)

Breed for a good horse, and there will be a market. Remember that you need to price your horses for the current market, based on their accomplishments and quality.

 

[HGFarm]

I guess I must say that I have never followed the 'fads', since I have always had Appies of one size or another since 1973 and loved them even before that. I breed for good conformation, movement and performance ability, color is nice, but is only a plus. I want a good horse that can DO something before I worry about color. (If I worried about color patterns first I would have quit a LONG time ago, LOL)

 

[Littleum]

Fads come. Fads go. I think the dilute craze is on its way out, personally. I think we're moving towards moderate pinto/solid + chrome.

Breed for what YOU like, because you're the one paying the bills!

As for the comments that "color sells"- not always, and not all the time. Color is very polarizing. You either like it or you don't. For everyone who likes it, there's someone else who does not like it. I personally dislike "loud" color, and really would rather not look at a pinto or appaloosa. I WILL, if I get told "Hey, you have GOT to see this horse" but I would be much more eager to go look at some plain bay with a blaze and a little sock. Of course I have a pale pee-colored palomino pinto right now... can't stand his color. But love the horse.

Really, I'd rather scale back my program then change it to suit a fickle & unpredictable marketplace. I'd rather look out the window and like the scenary.

 

[Coventry Lane Farm]

We have a little bit of every color of a horse that we breed at our farm, pinto's being colored palamino, buckskin, bay's, blue roan, black, then we have some solid bay's and black's. Next we have some leopard appaloosa's. We breed for confirmation and disposition first of all.

We like to have a variety for everyone's taste from the 32 inched AMHR/AMHA horses to the ASPC/AMHR horses and then the straight 43 inch ASPC Classic's and Modern Shetlands.

A good horse is a good horse no matter what the color and having chrome is a bonus for us. We will not cross breed the pinto's with the appaloosa's as well.

As far as our stallions, we have 3 pinto stallions, one being AMHA/AMHR registered and two that are ASPC/AMHR and 2 loud leopard stallions that are AMHA/AMHR.

You never know what will be produced each time even if the first time you produced a loud foal and the next breeding back the same combination it could be a solid, as long as everyone is healthy is our concern.

 

[palsminihorses]

I guess I must say that I have never followed the 'fads', since I have always had Appies of one size or another since 1973 and loved them even before that. I breed for good conformation, movement and performance ability, color is nice, but is only a plus. I want a good horse that can DO something before I worry about color. (If I worried about color patterns first I would have quit a LONG time ago, LOL)

Ditto what Laurie says! I had raised and shown big appaloosas since the 70's. After I got older, and married a basically 'non-horse' person, I discovered the miniature horses and found out that they came in appaloosa colors! So, fad or not, that's what we're breeding for.............loud colored appaloosas with great conformation! So, like others have said, breed for what youlike!

Pam