AMHR Stud Book

[LaVern]

The AMHR Stud Book is everything to me. It will be all that is left of what I have done for thirty years, when I am gone.

I know that there have been a few glitches but for the most part, we did it right, by trying to get as much information as possible recorded.

While AMHA tries to hide any pedigree on hard-shipped horses, we demanded that a copy at least of their papers came with, before allowing them in. And at least the sire and the dam were recorded.

Although we have not added DN ing and Parent Qualifying yet, I feel it will come in time. I hope first voluntarily and perhaps in 10-12 years becoming mandatory. I hope it is done slowly and with lots of thought.

I feel that when we allow a horse to be hard shipped into AMHR, we as members have a right to ask that party to prove parentage into our Registry. It is not too much to as for all that AMHR has to offer them.

The benefits of having AMHR papers far out weigh a little inconvenience of having to pull a little hair.

I don't feel that this should be done over night, but a notice of a year or two or perhaps three because of the ASPC horses having to be three to be hard shipped would be workable I feel.

I know that in these tough times, we have look for ways to save and make money, but I hope we don't use our precious stud book as a way to do so.

 

[kaykay]

I agree Lavern and I do think we are headed tword requiring DNA on ASPC and AMHR horses. My goal next year is to get quite a few of mine dna'd and then start PQing my foals on my own. I do think it could be a strong selling point.

I will always say that opening hardshipping to any gelding will set us back. Most of us want AMHR to become a breed and allowing geldings of unknown lineage in will not get us closer to that goal.

IMO too why would we want to give people that breed unregistered horses an avenue to get papers? I know in this area they will use it as a selling point. I can already see the Craigslist ads "buy this colt for 100.00, geld it and hardship into AMHR for 50.00! No way can I compete with that.

Unfortunately I also live very close to several auctions that sell a lot of unregistered miniatures. If people can go there and buy a mini colt for 20.00 and pay 50.00 to hardship where is their incentive to buy from a breeder that registers their horses?

Lisa I know you have pointed out that people can do it anyway through AMHA so this only affects B colts but I dont think there is at all a shortage of B geldings. Also I dont think the number of geldings being hardshipped AMHA to get into AMHR is a large number. Right now its a lot of money and time to get a horse hardshipped AMHA and then AMHR. If this passes its just way too easy and cheap to do it.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

Kay agree with you 100%. I want to see AMHR become a breed and allowing unregistered geldings back in won't let us do that. I also think we will see DNA as a requirement on future foals before they can have any registered foals in both AMHR and ASPC.

 

[Minimor]

I think foals should have to be DNA'd at time of registration. Registration fee includes the cost of DNA, and once you get to where foals are being born to horses that are DNA'd, then the DNA on those foals automatically includes PQ

Or, it should be done similar to the way some other breeds have done it. Require ALL breeding stallions to be DNA'd, and then all foals get DNA'd (and automatically PQ'd to their sire) at time of registration. At some point mares born after a certain date get DNA'd before their foals can be registered. Or maybe all mares, whichever....

I think it is very important for foals to be DNAd at time of registration. Why? Because then the onus is on the breeder to have the pedigree right. There is nothing worse than someone buying a foal, then 5 years down the road they want to breed that horse so they do DNA, only to find out that the foal is not of the parentage it is supposed to be. Maybe by that point the horse has had 3 different owners since the breeder sold it. Chances of getting the breeder to admit that he sold a foal with incorrect papers is slim to none--he will say one of the later owners switched the horse out. If foal gets DNAd at time of registration it is the breeder's problem if the parentage comes up wrong.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

The only reason I don't think requiring foals be DNA'd for registration is a good idea is I can see the number of registrations drop but perhaps not the number of foals but guess who has to do the paperwork, it will be the future buyers of those foals.

Thats why I think it should be before mares or stallions have registered foals they first need to be DNA'd. Right now I just don't see the reason on DNA geldings. Geldings aren't hugely popular right now and if we require them to be DNA'd its not going to get better. If we require it on stallions then maybe people would be more willing to geld their colts.

I don't know, sure in a perfect world I would like to see it every foal for registration has to be PQd but right now I just see it for mares or stallions to have registered foals.

 

[Minimor]

Well, you know what? If there are breeders who don't figure it is worth the price to DNA their foals at time of registration, then they shouldn't be raising those foals. It tells me something when a breeder says it isn't worth it to pay the extra cost of DNA!

And to be perfectly honest, if a buyer is stupid enough to buy an unregistered foal "on application" then he/she deserves to get stuck with the cost of filing the registration. He/she also deserves it if it turns out the foal cannot be registered after all because DNA proves that the parentage isn't what the paperwork claims that it is. Buyers that want to have a registered horse need to insist on having a horse come with up to date registration papers. If buyers refuse to buy on application then breeders will be forced to quit selling on application.

Likewise, I don't feel too sorry for someone that raises a foal without getting the sire & dam DNAd prior to the birth of that foal....they "wait and see if the foal is worth registering" before they bother with DNA. Then when something happens and after the birth of the foal the sire or dam dies prior to being DNAd and for whatever reason no one pulls hair on that horse prior to disposing of the body they squall because it's not fair they cannot get papers on the foal because one parent doesn't have DNA. I have always figured that if there is any doubt about the quality of foal a horse will produce, then that horse isn't worth breeding! ....and yes, any cross can produce disappointing results....but in spite of that I have never bred any horse that I thought was likely to produce a foal not worth registering! I've had some that I didn't figure would make a good breeding animal because of some trait that I wouldn't like to see passed on....those are called GELDINGS and non-breeding mares!

Coming from Morgans, where our foals did have to be DNA'd at time of registration (and in Morgans DNA means automatic PQ, with papers being denied if parentage wasn't right), with registration being something like $60 or $80 for the registration and DNA....I have never understood the Miniature breeder's mentality of "wait and see if the foal is good enough to register before I DNA the parents". For goodness sakes, believe in the horses you have selected for your breeding program!

 

[Sue_C.]

And to be perfectly honest, if a buyer is stupid enough to buy an unregistered foal "on application" then he/she deserves to get stuck with the cost of filing the registration. He/she also deserves it if it turns out the foal cannot be registered after all because DNA proves that the parentage isn't what the paperwork claims that it is. Buyers that want to have a registered horse need to insist on having a horse come with up to date registration papers.

With so many miniature foals being bought by people new to horses, or to registered horses, I certainly wouldn't call them "stupid" simply because they were trusting enough to believe a seller who is a liar, and a crook. Ignorance of the rules is NOT stupidity...and not many buyers new to the breed have fully read the rulebook prior to buying their first horses. For once...I would like to see the sellers who rooked these pepple into buying unregisterable horses, being the ones who are punished...not just tell the poor ignorant shmuck who just bought the horse from that crook, that he/she is stupid for having done so, and that they DESERVED it. Come on...SERIOUSLY...ya THINK??

Personally, I get pretty weary of this "buyer beware, it is ALL YOUR FAULT if you are robbed of your money by an unreputable buyer, because you are stupid". I would like to see names in the Journal and MHW of disreputable sellers. If you are banned or suspended, and IMO, ripping of an ususpecting buyer is worthy of such punishment...then we the public deserve to know who you are.

 

[JMS Miniatures]

With so many miniature foals being bought by people new to horses, or to registered horses, I certainly wouldn't call them "stupid" simply because they were trusting enough to believe a seller who is a liar, and a crook. Ignorance of the rules is NOT stupidity...and not many buyers new to the breed have fully read the rulebook prior to buying their first horses. For once...I would like to see the sellers who rooked these pepple into buying unregisterable horses, being the ones who are punished...not just tell the poor ignorant shmuck who just bought the horse from that crook, that he/she is stupid for having done so, and that they DESERVED it. Come on...SERIOUSLY...ya THINK??

Personally, I get pretty weary of this "buyer beware, it is ALL YOUR FAULT if you are robbed of your money by an unreputable buyer, because you are stupid". I would like to see names in the Journal and MHW of disreputable sellers. If you are banned or suspended, and IMO, ripping of an ususpecting buyer is worthy of such punishment...then we the public deserve to know who you are.

Thank you. And for reasons like these and other things really do make people very leary about buying horses. IMO if a breeder has done wrong to you bring it up to the registry. Thats what they are there for. They may not do anything right then and there but I'm sure they listen.

 

[Minimor]

Sue, most of the people that I hear complain about paperwork problems on horses they have bought are not newcomers to the breed, they are people who have had Minis for awhile and should know what to look for in terms of paperwork when purchasing a registered horse. They buy a horse because they like the low price and figure that the application is no big deal, then they complain when actually getting papers becomes an ordeal.

Yes, it's unfortunate when a newcomer buys a horse and gets "took" on paperwork by the seller. I'm not defending those sellers that do this to people. But at the same time, if you're a first time buyer that knows nothing about the breed or the paperwork....common sense should tell you to do a bit of research and find out a few things before buying. if you want to buy a registered horse for showing or breeding, do your homework and then you will know what registration requirements are and if the horse you are looking at to buy is or isn't already registered. It truly isn't that hard. It really does pay to look after oneself and not expect the seller to do it for you.

 

[Davie]

I've tried to stay out of the debate on allowing hardshipping of geldings into the Registry but I would like to look at the other side of the coin. I've been a past breeder (have not bred anything the last 2 years) and always prided myself on keeping my paperwork current and up to date BUTT....

I have a good example of why gelding should to be allowed to hardship.

I have a friend who bought an 8 horse hitch, all AT ONE TIME had been AMHA & AMHR registered but the person owning them when she bought them had lost their papers over the years--they did not have a need for their papers. The people never showed in sanctioned shows only parades etc and were now retiring, so they wanted to sell the geldings as a team.

The bottom line was she spend over $4,000 to get them hardshipped back into both registeries. By the time she had taken them to a AMHA director for measuring, then to an AMHR steward and judge for measuring and verification, haveing a vet come certify they were indeed geldings, plus the fees and everything else.

Had the previous owner been requried to keep up their paperwork then there would have been no reason to hardship these gelding back into a registry they already had been registered into at some point. They are now just horse a, b, c, d etc with her farm name on them as the previous owner just called them whatever barn name they wanted--these 8 beautiful gelding LOST their heritage because of someone's negelict in keeping up their paperwork and then someone came along and bought them that wanted to show them again. You can't dictate the requirement to keep registrations up to date.

She nor I are in favor of the $50.00 fee for the reason everyone has stated before but since they are non-breeding animals should she have had to pay that much, I personally don't think so--of course she had to hardship them into AMHA and then into AMHR. If the horses paperwork had been kept up to date it would have only cost her the regular transfer fees for each horse into each registry.

I have sold several of my colts over the years at auctions that included everything the person needed to get them registered--application, breeders certificates, registry worksheet, and even checks made out to the registry so they could registered their new horse--but only 2 have every taken the time to take the photos and mail the paperwork it. Most of the time when I have done this it was a last minute decision to put the colt in the auction and the paperwork would not have time to get to the registry and back into my possession before the sale--yes, not good on my part but it happens.

You can't make people keep up with their paperwork but we should not penalize those gelding that at one point in time may have been registered horses. I would not hesitate to hardship a unregisted or unknown gelding into AMHR if I thought he was a good enough specimen to go out into the ring and compete. Don't we all say that good gelding with our youth and amateur exhibitors are the back bone of our future shows???

Another good example--someone who owned a reputable farm suddenly died, they had no family that was part of the business end of the farm. Th family was now left with taking care of selling the horses--they just wanted them gone--they more than likely don't know who was who, who was bred to who or anything else. I know personally of this instance where this happened--I even went over to try and help match 4 solid chestnut gelding to their papers--it was a crap shoot--so instead of selling them with the wrong papers they sold them with none--these had been top winning horses but no longer--unless someone bought them saw their potential as show horses and hardshipped them back into the registry as an UNKNOWN.

This would also be the case of the 8 horse hitch--I help harness them on ocassions and if I was to go to the farm and try and tell you who was who I would probably get 3 or 4 wrong since most hitch horses live together in paddock situations.

I personally try to be sure that my personal representative for my estate knows what horses are here (individual folders with photos) and who has been breed to whom at least on an annual or semi annual basis, but that still does not guarantee that if I suddenly died walking out in the parking lot leaving work that they would take care of things like I would want done. I know they would try their best but that doesn't mean if would be done like I would want if I was still here and I do have a very detailed will.

DNA will help with the situation--especially like the situation of the hitch horses or the solid chestnut as you could pull hairs and then have the DNA run through the database but that is going to take years to establish and you will have long delays in having the datebase researched for matches.

Not sure there is an easy answer to this question, no matter which side of the coin you look at. This is just my opinion and another avenue for discussion.

 

[LaVern]

Situations like this are so sad, for both the horses and the people, but it only goes to prove that you must buy from a reputable breeder and be sure you have the paperwork in hand when you buy the horse. Do the homework before you buy.

Also, I think, and maybe I am wrong, that DNA ing or even Parent Qualifying won't help in cases like this. For example say you find a horse that you think you know who it is, and the parents are both DNA ed. With out the last recorded owners transfer, you can't do anything even if you can prove that the horse is who you think it is. I may be wrong about that. Anyone know?

 

[Davie]

What happens to that horse after he/she leaves that reputable breeder. These gelding were all older horses. It was probably long after the breeder had registered the horses that they lost their papers due to the one or more of the previous owners not seeing a reason to keep them current.

Having DNA would allow the horses to come back into the registery with their correct heritage intack even if they had to be hardshipped back in.

 

[LaVern]

I don't think that it works that way. Say, I as a breeder did not register a foal that was the result of breeding two of my

dN'd horses for some reason. And you knew who the foal was and who the parents were, so you bought it at some time. You could not register that foal even if you pulled hair and proved who that horse was. This protects the breeders and the recorded owners. The correct paperwork must go with the horse. I think at least I hope this is the case. There perhaps was a reason why I did not register that horse.

I think it would be the same case, even if I did register the foal and then decided not to sell it with the papers. Or if Joe Blow, the last recorded owner decided that he did not want to do anything with the papers, it is his call. That transfer is like a bill of sale and you can't register someone else's horse even if you know who it is.

 

[Davie]

LaVern you have missed my point entirely. I'm not talking about taking a horse/foal that was never registered and pulling mane hairs and matching those hairs to that horse's sire and dam and then registering it in--as you said there was a reason the breeder did not registered the foal in the first place. That I would not even agree with.

My example was IF AND WHEN a DNA database was established (all horses were included in that database) and IF THERE WAS A MATURE GELDING that had lost his papers somewhere down the line then that animal's hairs could be pulled and sent through the database (just like criminal DNA is done now) and if a match was found for THAT HORSE and that horse only, then why can't that horse then be re-established in the registry with his heritage intact with HARDSHIPPING and a note on his papers that states he was HARDSHIPPED back into the registry under his current owners name.

If no matching DNA was found then it would be up to the registry to decide if the horse meet the criteria to be hardshipped as an UNKNOWN.

I'm talking GELDINGS ONLY--not breeding stock.

There are going to be as many opinions on this matter as there are owners out there and not everyone is going to agree.

But for ME -- if there is a gelding out there that I felt could be a top contender in the show ring and he meets the requirements to be hardshipped into the R Registry as long as it is still an "Open Registry" and I wanted to spend the money, then you would see that horse in the ring competiting with all the other geldings.

If and when I find that gelding--it hasn't yet but there might be one somewhere out there.

The issue of establishing the DNA datebase is another issue and until a line is drawn in the sand and from that date forward all foal that are to eligible for registration must be DNA tested before their papers are issued (such as the Arabians and Morgans and probably several others)then we will have to live with the rule the Registry has in place currently.

Now I'll quite beating this dead horse.

and that is my two cents for the "Other Side of the Coin". Will get off my soapbox and be at Convention to see what does come of this issue.

 

[LaVern]

I get your point, Davie, but my point is that with out the last owners signature the office cannot do it.. Perhaps this horse kicked this guys wife in the head and he said I will never allow that horse to have papers. He has the last say. Especially if it is know through DNA that he is still the owner. The office can not take the horse out of his hands. It still belongs to the last owner.

An AMHR is not an open registry like AMHA is for a few more years. We only take smaller ASPC registered horses and registered AMHA horses.

 

[stormy]

I too believe DNA is essential to the registry... would gain more credibility that way then changing measuring or any other change you can think of. Should start now, not 10 yrs from now!

Two years ago a friend from a full size horse background gave shetlads a try, moderns specifically. She leased a gelding and showed all the way thru Congress. When I asked her afterwards if she was going to continue with shetlands her response was...why would I do that, there is no such thing as a purebred Shetland, people just cross whatever they want and register it as a Shetland!

Have also been to mini farms where more then one stud is running with the same group of mares at the same time, the response to my question...oh I can tell which foals belong to which stallion when they are born!?!?

If we want to be taken seriously in the horse world we need to seriously stop these kinds of activities by breeders! DNA won't stop all of it, but will make it harder to cheat.

 

[LaVern]

I know I should let this go, but it intrigues me so.

Try this one on Please.

Okay I have a parent Qualified AMHA mare and a parent AMHA Qualified Stallion ( which I do).I mate them and send in AMHA Stallion Report. They produce a colt which I don't think will stay under 34 ( most of mine don't). So I registered it Little Brownie AMHR and loose track of where he went..

Then one day I am watching The World Show and their is Little Brownie(he stayed small enough and was hardshipped into AMHA) winning The Supreme horse. Well I guess I will pay the late fees and register little Brownie AMHA because he did not go over 34. What is going to happen when AMHA finds out that Dream Lands Divine Debonaire is really little Brownie. The people that have possession of course own the horse, but who gets the papers? This hard-shipping stuff with DNA is tricky.

 

[Relic]

To me you'd be SOL on this one...if you bred 2 typed parents and didn't register the foal in the A but did stick R papers on him and he sold..then l went and bought this so call Little Brownie and after the required time for hardshipping the fees involved the typing paid and he measured well under the 34" in height to get him into the A registry and thats what l did along with his new name..then decided to show him got lucky at Worlds where lo and behold you saw him winning a supreme. l don't think at this point you can just go ahead and register him on your own you'd still need his hairs for typing current pictures and a height all dated and signed by you and you don't really have the horse or had him for years...l did. Did any of that make sense.

 

[LaVern]

You are right I forgot about the hair but I could have pulled the when he was a baby as I do some DNAing with Kentucky I know far fetched, but things that have to be thought about, it is enough to cause trouble and involve lawyers in this crazy world. Now I know that AMHA doesn't not accept Kentucky, but I think the law does. One more reason I don't think the AMHR ought to open up something that could be trouble.

 

[Relic]

Well that was just my opinion on what you asked...not saying it's right just to my way of thinking as having once owned or bred the resulting hardshipped in mini l would have to think that you gave away all rights and have no business paying the late fees etc without the horse in your actual hands whether you kept hairs on him or not. Now if the same guy who was hardshipped in his new owner the one who won a supreme with him

got in touch with you or you with him and it was decided a pedigree on the paperwork would benefit both parties...okay l have no clue how that would be handled.