Advice please

[WJS]

Hi, I am new to driving, i think I have just broke my 15 year old stallion to drive ( he may have been broke whilst in the USA but i do not know for sure) he has been over in the UK for about 4 years.

Took to the harness and cart like a Duck to Water! but he hates the bit... i have tried a raised barrel with 1/2 side cheeks and a normal snaffle.

my question is: could he be driven without a bit? would i have enough control? ( we only drive in the field).

Is there a way of finding out if he was driven in the USA?..would like to know more about him.

thank you

 

[fourluckyhorseshoes]

I would say no driving without a bit. I was at a clinic where the clinician recommended putting the bit on after feeding while in the stall and leave it in all day , not too tight of course and after a few days they will be used to it. Taking it off at night and for meals of course.

 

[brasstackminis]

When you say he hates his bit...can you discribe what he is doing? It is hard to help without more information

There are ways to see if he was shown in driving classes I believe. People could possibly help you if we knew his registered name.

 

[Kaitlyn]

What about a bitless bridle? Admittedly, I've never driven a horse before, but I do ride bitless all the time. I use this bridle: http://www.bitlessbridle.com/ and feel just as secure in it as I do with a bit. They make a driving version too. It's not legal to show in, though.

I would personally be hesitant to leave a bit in all day. The bit rings could easily get caught on something and do serious damage to the horse's mouth. Plus you wouldn't be able to feed hay while it's on- it's a choking hazard.

But I do agree that more information about just what he is doing to show that he doesn't like the bit. Perhaps you need to play around with some different types? Once again, I have no experience driving but if it's anything like riding bits there are so many types out there that you're almost bound to find one that he won't mind eventually, so long as his mouth is physically suited to a bit.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Hi, I wouldn't drive without a bit. My trainer tried a couple of bits with my boy.. but during the training process, we did quite a few hours of bit training without driving... Training without pulling on reins... just bit in the mouth training.

We would put on the bit and then I would give him tidbits of treats while he was wearing it, so he learned how to manipulate treats around the bit and she said it helped teach him what to do with his tongue and could help him learn to fix his own tongue over the bit should that happen. He learned to love the bit and look forward to it. I used bits of carrot, apple and broke up some small easily broken up horse treats to give him.

I also made sure, no bit work without a proper recent dental check before starting. We would look into changing bits if he still resisted and we knew it was not due to teeth or lack of mouth training... Some of the smaller mini sized bits are too thick and that can cause discomfort too.

I would never consider driving bitless, because I have found that most horses that "hate the bit" either need additional training, need a consideration of a different type of bit, or need a dental. The snaffle bits can act like a nutcracker on some horses and some horses like a straight bit or a french link. My boy drives in a straight bit.

I had to wrap the bit for one of my boys with that latex stuff during training even though it was a straight bit, until he was used to it... there are lots of reasons for your boy to hate the bit, especially if he is new to driving.. best wishes

 

[Marsha Cassada]

It is expensive to experiment with driving bits, unless you know driving folk who have a good selection to try out. A french link seems to be an all-around bit for driving. I have ordered several from Mini Express over the years, in different sizes. It was the first place I knew of that offered them, but other companies offer them now. Perhaps he needs an equine dental check, in case he has wolf teeth, or the bit set is not correct. The shape of the mouth affects it also. I had a horse with a short mouth and it actually worked better for him to shorten the headstall.

btw, I do not think it is illegal to drive in a show without a bit. I was helping at a show a few years ago and an entrant had no bit, and actually pointed it out the judges. They were horrified, but there was nothing in the rules about requiring a bit. I think the other exhibitors were glad they did NOT know about that until the class was over. No matter how well trained, how could that driver have truly controlled his horse without a bit? A bitless bridle works on a different prinicple, but it is not more "humane" than a well fitting bit.

 

[WJS]

Hi, thank you for all your thoughts, here is a bit more information.

HCM Navajos Black Magic, 15 years old.....one truely amazing horse...

his teeth are done every six months by our vet.

problem...once the bit is in the mouth... easy not a problem...its getting it in... he rears, backs up, shakes his head... you name it he tries to avoid it...

I have checked his mouth, there are no nicks or sores, bit fits nicely, i do not pull or yank, as he is an older boy i have done every thing slowly, from long reining, pulling a tyre, walking with side poles ( thanks to" I am ranch" advice) , walking with cart behind him, then with him in it supported by me and finally attached him..all this has gone like clockwork...its just getting the bridle- bit in his mouth to start with.

now he a Wise older boy... it would be like him to know... bit means a bit of work...and avoid BIT...hes the same with round penning, once he has had enough he comes as close as he can get to me and no amount of assistance will move him back out.

thank you

so, if its a bit problem, what bit would you reccommend.

 

[brasstackminis]

Have you ever Googled your guy? I found several pictures of him and he is quite a mover! Also several pics of foals. The show results that were posted were all of halter classes. They also listed the names of the previous owners. You could contact them and ask. It may take some work to get ahold of them.. You could also call AMHA. They may be able to give you a print out of his show record for a nominal fee.

As far as the bit...Sounds more like a possible temper tantrum!

I mean if you are positive that your guy's teeth are good...can you post pics of your bits that you have tried? There is a possibility that there is something that a novice may not notice about a bit that could be hurting him?

The other thing is that until they get accustomed to a bit, horses often show dislike to the whole process. My avatar guy was not the least bit impressed by the whole bitting thing. It took a while in the round pen just lounging him in side reins for him to figure it out. The tounge was over, under...the mouth was open like he thought he was gagging LOL

I just pushed him forward and allowed him to do whatever he wanted and eventually he taught himself where the release was and how to hold the bit comfortably. I have to add that if your guy is rearing and not going forward that sidereins are not advised at this point...or super loose and floppy. I would just put the bit on him and lounge him with the halter over the bit/bridle. Also, forgive me but I am unaware of your previous riding experiance, how are you attempting to bridle him? It may be helpful to have someone video you doing the process for you to see and you could share here for more advice!

After he is cool with that, you add side reins loose, then more contact and eventually you can add reins and he will be over himself. If you have ruled out all sources of pain and discomfort, then I would move in with the training. French link snaffles are helpful in some mouths. Make sure your bit is not too fat or heavy. There is also the mullen mouth which many horses like. Truthfully all of my guys are in half cheek 2 piece snaffles and they are fine...eventually.

My super sensitive shetland has a 3 piece Myler knock off but it was more because I was sick of putting his tounge back where it belonged and he couldn't play like that with this bit.

I even ride my 16.2hh Arabian Trek cross with a loose ring snaffle and I go EVERYWHERE with him!

Oh and my best show mare used to rear up and flip over when I started leading her in a show halter...just silly baby stuff. She doesn't do that anymore. I guess she decided that all of that work being dramatic was wasted on me.

 

[Kaitlyn]

No matter how well trained, how could that driver have truly controlled his horse without a bit? A bitless bridle works on a different prinicple, but it is not more "humane" than a well fitting bit.

I'm not sure I see the connection between the bit and true 'control'. It is very possible to have no control with a bit in, just as it is very possible to have control without a bit. It all has to do with training. I mean, if the horse really wanted to he could just bowl you over and run in the opposite direction. Perhaps it is easier to bully the horse into obeying with a bit, because bits can be yanked on (painfully!). Not saying that that is how anyone here uses their bits, mind you.

I'm not going to go digging around for articles (I'm sure one could easily search for them), but there have definitely been studies that have shown that there are adverse effects of bits. Not only can an improperly fitted bit cause pain, but any type of bit is going to affect the horse's breathing. Sure, they can learn to adapt to it somewhat, but why make them? Imagine if you had to go run around with a metal bar in your mouth. I would switch to completely bitless riding if shows allowed it (I have switched to bitless for trails, though). Heck, it people can ride BRIDLESS and manage to control the horse, no reason one can't do so without a bit.

I mean, you control them from the ground just fine without a bit, don't you? Why not from the cart, or from their backs?

I will say that I think your guy will get used to the bit after time, though, if you wish to use one. If it's only a problem when you put it in, maybe try coating the bit with something tasty so he thinks it is a treat.

 

[Sandee]

Just a thought but (if you are sure the bit fits GOOD) then try putting something good tasting on it before you put it in his mouth. Molasses, sugar, almost anything sweet. He'll learn that the bit it not the nasty thing pretty fast. You might also try bitting him, walking him around, brushing (or something he likes), and then removing the bit to prove that it's not ALWAYS a WORK thing.

I trained my mare this way and she is my only mini to "pick up" a bit like a big horse will.

 

[WJS]

This is the bit i am using, it has three bands of copper inserted both sides of the bit.

I will try something sweet on it.

thank you for your advice.

 

[paintponylvr]

training. sounds like you have a good start.

Now spend time handling his head. Teach him to lower it at a touch on his poll. Teach him to turn it towards you likehe's giving you a "hug". Do this from both sides. Move his halter around - rub it all over. Then handle his muzzle - teach him you are allowed to hold his face and touch is nose. Then start inserting a finger or thumb azt the round edge of his lips (stay with him if he throws his head around or trys to "leave"). Both sides. Then advance to putting your fingers on his tongue - you get the idea? When he stops moving his mouth or trying to "spit" your hand/fingers out, remove it and reward him how4ever you do so.

You are simulating putting a bridle and bit on - getting him used to accepting "stuff" in his mouth and things around his ears. Really sounds like a training resistance "thing".

*************

AS to leaving bridles on - my weanlings and yearlings often wear a bit while eating breakfast while tied at their buckets. Or they wear it while I'm grooming them. Had a 1/2 arab/shetland that I started this on - cuz he was so busy all th3 time with his mouth - didn't bite but EVERYTHING investigated by being pulverizefd by his teeth... Getting them accustomed to wearing a bit and eating with it works for me... They aren;t stalled.

When I have one that truly is bad about being bridled tho - I follow the 1st paragraph. Takes some time.

I have a lot of horses and ponies - but the only small ones in my area that I know are bitted. So I end up collecting bits. I haven't even gotten around to trying the kelly or Myler bits like you show. I use plain snaffles - tho usually with an xtra break - such as a dog bone or french link... Some are full cheeck (meant for riding hunt seat), some are 1/2 check, some are ring and eggbutt (riding style again)...

 

[Sandee]

What you have there is a lowport correction bit. Some will tell you that there is not enough room in a mini's mouth for a bit with a port on it. However, my stallion preferred a lowport so he would not have the tongue pressure.

If that bit is hitting the roof of his mouth, that might be part of your problem with him not taking the bit. Our older gelding used to rear up and fuss about the bit until we discovered that it wasn't sitting right in his mouth and changed bits. Now he's fine and easy to harness.

 

[Katiean]

I was training a horse that was hard to bit and I just got some fruit roll up and wrapped the mouth piece of the bit with it. After while I didn't have to use anything. I think someone may have banged his teeth with the bit in the past.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

problem...once the bit is in the mouth... easy not a problem...its getting it in... he rears, backs up, shakes his head... you name it he tries to avoid it...

If he was ever bridled in America that might be part of your problem. It's horrifying how some people cram these little guy's heads into their bridles with no respect just because the horse can't get their head up high enough to escape!

They force the mouth open, often banging the bit against the teeth, then scrape the blinkers over their eyes and jam the ears under the crownpiece and finally yank the forelock out from under then expect the horse to like it. I've seen many minis frantically try to avoid bridling for that reason.

This is the bit i am using, it has three bands of copper inserted both sides of the bit.
thank you for your advice.View attachment 7062

A low port can help a horse with a thick tongue, but that's a very tall, narrow, pointy one and might well be hitting the roof of his mouth and causing him pain. My gelding objected strenuously to a very similar one but he's quite happy with a regular low-port rather than a correctional bit.

I won't get into the bitless thing, but it IS illegal to drive bitless at ADS events and I believe it also is in AMHR now. Not sure about A. I've ridden my Arab without a bit before (in a halter, which I know is very different from a bitless bridle) and found that while I could get him to collect and do lateral work off a single lead when he was calm and happy, should he get upset I had virtually no control as his brain, the part I was really communicating with, went AWOL. When riding I'm quite willing to risk that, especially on a trail where the only one likely to get damaged is me. I can always do a one-rein stop or jump off if I have to. When driving however the horse is hauling a massive weapon behind him and if he should go a little nuts for some reason despite all my training, you'd better believe I want a means of getting his attention again. I hate to hurt his sensitive mouth but if it's between reaming him when he's bolting or running over some small child, you bet the horse is the one who's going to get it! I do NOT have the right to increase the risk to those around me, IMO, and thanks to the shafts I can't use the mechanics of the horse's body to force him to stop as I can when riding or on the ground. Just my opinion, and this is from someone who generally is all in favor of horse-friendly alternatives.

Leia

 

[LazyRanch]

A bitless bridle works on a different prinicple, but it is not more "humane" than a well fitting bit.

I agree with this. I was looking at someone else's bitless bridle and it sure as heck looked and worked like what we used to call a "war bridle." The action was across the poll - not very kind at all. Those folks loved it and absolutely swear by it because their horse would rear and run away because he "hated a bit in his mouth." In the bitless bridle he traveled with his head "nice and low" and halt on an instant.

Yeah, if I have every pull on the rein crush down across my poll, I'd be going head down too, and halting on an instant, just to avoid it.

I didn't say anything to them and the more I think about it, the more I regret it.

 

[LazyRanch]

If he was ever bridled in America that might be part of your problem. It's horrifying how some people cram these little guy's heads into their bridles with no respect just because the horse can't get their head up high enough to escape!

They force the mouth open, often banging the bit against the teeth, then scrape the blinkers over their eyes and jam the ears under the crownpiece and finally yank the forelock out from under then expect the horse to like it. I've seen many minis frantically try to avoid bridling for that reason.

A low port can help a horse with a thick tongue, but that's a very tall, narrow, pointy one and might well be hitting the roof of his mouth and causing him pain. My gelding objected strenuously to a very similar one but he's quite happy with a regular low-port rather than a correctional bit.

I do NOT have the right to increase the risk to those around me, IMO, and thanks to the shafts I can't use the mechanics of the horse's body to force him to stop as I can when riding or on the ground. Just my opinion, and this is from someone who generally is all in favor of horse-friendly alternatives.

Leia

Leia, you are bang on here. Having worked in training barns of most flavours, I have come to learn that 95% of the time it isn't the bit or the horse - it's the rider/driver. There will always be occasions where the horse comes unglued, or there have been injuries, but most of the time it is rider issue, whether a previous owner/trainer or current. Regardless of who or when, it becomes the current rider or driver's problem and they are the people responsible for not harming those around them.

My last upper level event horse stood 17.1 hands and came from a hunter jumper barn, where the "trainer" rode him in an 11" elevator bit. The horse was so ruined and head shy, that when I got him I put on a hollow mouth Fulmer full cheek. I couldn't ride with anyone because he'd become so terrified and I would have about 5' of neck that was locked straight from the jaw to the barrel: no stop, no turn (and no clue he could run away!). A solid year of work and the horse was competing Prelim on the same Fulmer bit. Two years later and he long listed - STILL doing the marathon, roads and tracks and stadium on the same Fulmer. The point being it wasn't the horse, or the bit he hated; simply bad handling.