A few pictures from Nationals

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Dr. Pam

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OK, so we didn't actually die. Just wanted to a few times. I won't vent here--the people both old friends and new are wonderful, the horses are stunning (drives home the point 98% of my barn is no longer National quality), the judges overall were very good (exception IMO was Showmanship--again
).

We showed until 2am both days, and started right back up at 8:30 am. The classes, especially in the 13-17 were HUGE--Patty was in the ring for 4 hours Sat am for Halter Obstacle--under alone. Show management, eventhough entries for youth are "set in stone"--they had the numbers 6 weeks ago--was totally unprepared. 44 entries in Versatility Under.
They decided at midnight that there were too many entries in the class to run it as one class and they needed to split it. No duh.

Patty started off winning Youth Halter Sr. Geldings--Under (29 or 30 in the class) with Erica's gimmie Another Glance. We were both in tears. I said if we went home right now, we'd be happy. Prophetic words. Jurgen's Cinnamon Swirl had to be scratched from all her driving classes because her back was out, Nostalgia's Indisputably Orion refuses to show after midnight (sorry, but a show horse needs to suck it up a little when it's crunch time--that's what makes a show horse different from a pet. Lee needs to be a pet). Patty had a perfect run in Showmanship Over--one of three girls to have all three pivots clean but didn't place. Kids who turned their horses in circles placed. Same thing happened to Jamie, and Randee.

Patty took an 8th in Showmanship--Under with Lance, which is right about where she should be. She got a 6th in Driving Obstacle --Over with Lee, and an 8th in Jumping-Under with Spice behind Jamie and Heather (Forum members). That was an amazing class!! I think that is also where Spice torqued her back (had the Chiropracter on the grounds treat her--she's doing fine now. 6 months of driving practice is tough to throw away, but taking her in would have been wrong)

Lance was a little horse in the Big City--Nationals was only his third performance show. He kept his eye on the center ring for driving classes. OK, he had his head turned at right angles most of the time. He was the one on full alert for the entire Showmanship class--no "at ease" when it wasn't that half of the arena's turn. Basically the whole deer in the headlights look the whole show.

Waiting for Hunter class



"Hey Mom, did you see that???"



Check out the center ring decorations!



Patty and Spice after their run in Jumper



some shots of the hunter/jumper course this year (MUCH improved from last year!!)





you know, they'll let just about anyone in at Nationals




can you name the Forum members?
 
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sedeh

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Thanks for the wonderful stories and pics. Enlighten me please....I am fairly new to the forum and have only met a few....can you put names to the last pic?? Thanks!
 

ChrystalPaths

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What wonderful pics! I love the one "did you see that?". Congrats and condolences. One of the many reasons I just don't want to show. Best of luck with the rest. Missed you!
 

Manyspots

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Thanks for the pics! Any more? I miss not being there but maybe another year will be better. Congrats on the placings also. Patty did great! Lavonne
 

Jill

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Great pics and congratulations on the wins!!! I think I recognize our own Rob / CLC in the people pic!
 
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Feather1414

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Dr. Pam said:
  Patty had a perfect run in Showmanship Over--one of three girls to have all three pivots clean but didn't place.  Kids who turned their horses in circles placed.  Same thing happened to Jamie, and Randee.
Patty took an 8th in Showmanship--Under with Lance, which is right about where she should be.  She got a 6th in Driving Obstacle --Over with Lee, and an 8th in Jumping-Under with Spice behind Jamie and Heather (Forum members).  That was an amazing class!!  I think that is also where Spice torqued her back (had the Chiropracter on the grounds treat her--she's doing fine now.  6 months of driving practice is tough to throw away, but taking her in would have been wrong)
Yea, do you understand why the people who turned their horses in a circle placed over the horses that pivoted? I don't get it, and i am really upset.

Peanut stood like this the whole time. He set up perfect for the judge, stood totally still in the lineup, pivoted and STOPPED WITHOUT ME YANKING BACK HIS HEAD, yes I didnt place. Then look at the girl next to me. Her horse didnt stand still at all, moved when the judge went around, didnt pivot at all, and yet she placed! Sorry, little vent there. Dealer when he pivoted dug a hole with his foot, stood still, set up and stopped flawlessly, and my patterns were perfect (( not to sound conceited)) yet girls whose horses couldn't stand still OR pivot placed. Makes me mad, since I spent MONTHS teaching my horses to pivot and stand and set up and stop and everything, yet girls who obviously didn't spend that much time training their horse placed.

I am sorry if you are one of those girls, but I am out in the barn an average of 3 hours daily with both horses training them, and I worked SOOOOO hard, and didn't place.



 

Dr. Pam

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Feather1414 said:
Dr. Pam said:
  Patty had a perfect run in Showmanship Over--one of three girls to have all three pivots clean but didn't place.  Kids who turned their horses in circles placed.  Same thing happened to Jamie, and Randee.
Patty took an 8th in Showmanship--Under with Lance, which is right about where she should be.  She got a 6th in Driving Obstacle --Over with Lee, and an 8th in Jumping-Under with Spice behind Jamie and Heather (Forum members).  That was an amazing class!!  I think that is also where Spice torqued her back (had the Chiropracter on the grounds treat her--she's doing fine now.  6 months of driving practice is tough to throw away, but taking her in would have been wrong)
Yea, do you understand why the people who turned their horses in a circle placed over the horses that pivoted? I don't get it, and i am really upset.

Peanut stood like this the whole time. He set up perfect for the judge, stood totally still in the lineup, pivoted and STOPPED WITHOUT ME YANKING BACK HIS HEAD, yes I didnt place. Then look at the girl next to me. Her horse didnt stand still at all, moved when the judge went around, didnt pivot at all, and yet she placed! Sorry, little vent there. Dealer when he pivoted dug a hole with his foot, stood still, set up and stopped flawlessly, and my patterns were perfect (( not to sound conceited)) yet girls whose horses couldn't stand still OR pivot placed. Makes me mad, since I spent MONTHS teaching my horses to pivot and stand and set up and stop and everything, yet girls who obviously didn't spend that much time training their horse placed.

I am sorry if you are one of those girls, but I am out in the barn an average of 3 hours daily with both horses training them, and I worked SOOOOO hard, and didn't place.





467260[/snapback]

Jamie, that's Randee Prindle and her horse Kamelot's Running Bear. They did NOT place in that class--RB was moving all over because he was colicing. Randee didn't figure it out for a while, but we were sitting right above you and it was obvious. She has put years into him too, and his performance was totally out of character. I commend you and your horse--Dealer stood like a rock through the whole thing, and you're right--you two did wonderful. I think Patty and Lee (chestnut pinto) were either next to you on your left or one down--and she also put hours of work into showmanship, ran a perfect pattern, and didn't place. Oddly enough, the same thing happened to Randee in the Under Showmanship--she is past National Champion, had a beautiful performance, and didn't place.

I'm buying the tapes from both classes--I want to go over them with a trainer friend and see if I'm being barn blind or if you guys were as good as I think.
 

Feather1414

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Dr. Pam said:
Jamie, that's Randee Prindle and her horse Kamelot's Running Bear.  They did NOT place in that class--RB was moving all over because he was colicing.  Randee didn't figure it out for a while, but we were sitting right above you and it was obvious.  She has put years into him too, and his performance was totally out of character.  I commend you and your horse--Dealer stood like a rock through the whole thing, and you're right--you two did wonderful.  I think Patty and Lee (chestnut pinto) were either next to you on your left or one down--and she also put hours of work into showmanship, ran a perfect pattern, and didn't place.  Oddly enough, the same thing happened to Randee in the Under Showmanship--she is past National Champion, had a beautiful performance, and didn't place.
I'm buying the tapes from both classes--I want to go over them with a trainer friend and see if I'm being barn blind or if you guys were as good as I think.

467337[/snapback]

Whoops, someone told me that she did place, maybe it was someone else who looked like her.

If you do watch the tapes, can you please try and figure out if I did something wrong, with either of my horses? I am certain their pivots were flawless and all, just sometimes the video catches things the handler didnt, they are a great training tool.

The thing that gets me, is that if you read the rule book, it says you are SUPPOSED to take a step when the judge passes the withers. Yet, I noticed all the girls who placed did NOT take that step. I don't think its fair that someone who honestly messes up should place over someone who does do it right. Yes, I am a little ticked, and I probably sound very whiny to people reading this, but I just want to know what I need to do to get out there and have an actual chance at winning.
 

Russ

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Congrats Patty and Pam!!! I really like your horse Lance!


P.S. Could ya blow that forum member pic up real big and zoom in on the space to the right, behind the gentleman on the ground....yeahh the brownish bottle with silver label. I just can't quite see what that bottle is? Man, AMHR need a groundskeeper at Nationals to clean up the ring while showing in youth classes.
 

Sterling

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Oh great pics!!!!! I especially like the 3rd one...it looks so festive and has a like neon glow to it. Thanks for sharing!!!
 

CyndiM

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It looks like a lot of fun but the dissapointment of knowing you were more prepared than some of the "winners" and you didn't place at all must be a diffucult pill to swallow.

I think I'll remain a non show person.

Looking forward to knowing who the group is.
 

Mnmini

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Did you guys go up to the office to check the scoring sheets? At least that would tell you if any of the judges used you, and where. I think youth and ammy shared the same judges. The tall guy i was told was a "pony" judge, and his placings seemed to have very little in common with the other two. I did notice that pivots and lines seemed to count for very little in determing placing. In fact when reviewing tapes, at times it was impossible to determine which judge the contestant was intending to show to, though it didn't necessarily seem to impact their placings negatively. I think the speed and accuracy of the inspection square up was apparently of highest importance, all other things somewhere down the line.

It would inevitably help the class a lot if it the class was weighted more to pattern than it currently is. Currently a full 50% of the score is on appearance and condition of horse and handler. 15 of the remaining 50 % is on posing, leaving relatively little of the overall score for the pattern itself. Plus, having more difficult patterns, and not "stock" patterns would push things in the right direction. Of course, AMHR would need to remind judges to actually follow the rule book! One only has to look at the headsets preferred by the judges in country pleasure driving, and then look at what is mandated in the rule book to see that it is in general not followed. The rule book specifies over checks and side checks to be loosely attached, but the checks are routinely quite tight in an effort to achieve the high-headed performance that seems to be preferred. I notice the rule book does not address headset aside from a reference to whatever is appropriate to the individual pony, though a high head and hollow back seem to be the desired "look." Would be nice to have one driving class that resembled the principle of driven dressage versus having yet a different division for the pleasure class, albeit re-named country pleasure.
 

showoffs

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The people in the last picture are

right to left,

Linda McGinnis (behind fence),

Maddi Symmonds,

Rob Crater,

Nyla Potter (behind fence),

Not sure, looks like me daughter, but I know she was not there,

Patty Cloke.
 

Dr. Pam

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Did you guys go up to the office to check the scoring sheets? At least that would tell you if any of the judges used you, and where. I think youth and ammy shared the same judges. The tall guy i was told was a "pony" judge, and his placings seemed to have very little in common with the other two. I did notice that pivots and lines seemed to count for very little in determing placing. In fact when reviewing tapes, at times it was impossible to determine which judge the contestant was intending to show to, though it didn't necessarily seem to impact their placings negatively. I think the speed and accuracy of the inspection square up was apparently of highest importance, all other things somewhere down the line.
I went down--Patty was 5th on Judge Eitel's sheet, and not on the other 2. That's about where I had her.

It would inevitably help the class a lot if it the class was weighted more to pattern than it currently is. Currently a full 50% of the score is on appearance and condition of horse and handler. 15 of the remaining 50 % is on posing, leaving relatively little of the overall score for the pattern itself. Plus, having more difficult patterns, and not "stock" patterns would push things in the right direction. Of course, AMHR would need to remind judges to actually follow the rule book!
Wow. You're right, and I've been over this rule book a hundred times (not exaggerating--I was on the rulebook committee 2 years). We've talked about adding patterns 4-6 from the Shetland section--much more of a challange. Seems we need to propose revising the point allocation for Showmanship as well. Of course, this all depends, as you pointed out, on having judges that actually know the rulebook.

One only has to look at the headsets preferred by the judges in country pleasure driving, and then look at what is mandated in the rule book to see that it is in general not followed. The rule book specifies over checks and side checks to be loosely attached, but the checks are routinely quite tight in an effort to achieve the high-headed performance that seems to be preferred. I notice the rule book does not address headset aside from a reference to whatever is appropriate to the individual pony, though a high head and hollow back seem to be the desired "look." Would be nice to have one driving class that resembled the principle of driven dressage versus having yet a different division for the pleasure class, albeit re-named country pleasure.
Oh man, don't even get me started. This should be a whole new thread. I sat with some folks from WI while watching some of the driving classes. They show primarily ADS and were very frustrated watching the Country Pleasure classes--they kept quoting the rulebook. Yeah, right. I feel your pain. We can't place in Country Pleasure at the National level because I use loose sidechecks, no martingale, and my horses extend and REACH with a collected, natural headset. I like it--the judges don't. My choice, so I can't complain (much
). I talked up adding a Carriage Driving division like the Shetlands have, since we've lost the Country Driving division to the horses the trainers feel can't quite make the Pleasure Driving division.
 
K

kaykay

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i wasnt there dang it but i can say looking at the showman ship pictures that the girl on the right is in the correct showmanship position while the feather is not. You can see that feather is much more relaxed (arms loose instead of straight etc) and looking at the camera not the judge. I dont know if these were taken during the class but i have to assume they were since they are given as examples. I know it seems petty but this is what showmanship is judged on. If this happend to be when the judge was looking it could have hurt your score really badly.
 

Mnmini

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Pam,

I suspect we're too late to effect next year's rule changes? I watched I believe the under and over youth showmanship, and I would have to say I was surprised at some of the placings. Some of my "picks" didn't make the top 10, though they should have. I got a 3rd and a 9th and a nothing from the tall guy, giving me 8th overall in the ammy ladies.

You are correct on the country pleasure driving. I do similar to you. No martingale, loose sidechecks, though my horse does carry his face on the vertical, he isn't high-headed enough for all of the judges, certainly not at Nationals anyway. I keep hoping under the theory that they can't place what isn't in front of them, that horses with a more natural headset will win favor, and he does at local AMHR shows, but that hasn't translated to Nationals...yet. My dressage friends love him, and I'm sure we'll have a fine time at the ADS sanctioned shows, but it chaps me not to be able to compete at Nationals with him, as nice as he is. I hesitate to bow to the mandate that would have me winnning..if I cinch his head high enough. Seems like such a shame. Could we create a rail driving class where high heads aren't required? And, more importantly, would the rules be followed by exhibitors/judges?
 

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