Worming Questions

[misty'smom]

This is not such a great topic kind of gross actually but I have a few questions.......

My 2 fillies are 8 & 9 months old, they were wormed by the breeder right before she brought them to me in mid October. I wormed them again end of November and then again yesterday. They had been rubbing their hind ends/tails on the fence but they always seem to be trying to scratch something!! I used 2 different kind of wormer.....well today I noticed that Misty had something hanging out her hind end, I lifted her tail and she passed a worm that was quite long, round, white/gray. It appeared to be dead. That for sure was the gross part!!!!!!

So should I see more of this? How will I know they both are worm free or will that be as they get older?? Should I worm sooner than later and what brands do you all recommend?? I clean their stalls daily, removing all manure and wet shavings letting the stall mats air and dry out before fresh shavings added. I try to poop scoop the field area every other day, the longest might have been after 3 days ( holiday season got a little hectic) but never longer.

Please give me all your thoughts, advice and deworming techniques!!!!! I feel bad that Misty had that nasty thing in her belly and now I am worried about little Josie too!!

So in other words HELP!!!!!!!!

 

[chandab]

I'm sure you will get good suggestions/advice from members on LB, but it would be wise to talk to your vet as to the best deworming schedule for your area (the worm cycles vary a bit by region and climate).

What dewormers have you used? Be sure you are looking at the active ingredient and not just the brand name.

I mostly use ivermectin wormers, and try for every 2 months; but also use fendbendazole for encysted strongyles and a dewormer for tapes.

Do not use Quest (moxidectin) on minis, the safety margin is just too small.

 

[misty'smom]

I first used one that was ivermectin and the one yesterday was fendbendazole.

 

[Carolyn R]

What you are describing is a roundworm. They look like white earthworms. Round worms are not uncommon in younger horses or those that are compromised healthwise. Round worms are one of the few species of worms that a healthy horse, will ward off or gain an immunity to as it matures, usually around 18-24 months, as long as they are healthy and number have been kept in check, they will typically begin to have a natural risitance to them.

The fact that you found a mature round worm in the rectal cavity would make me think there is more than one. They are prolific egg layers. I would keep a close eye on your youngsters and observe them for colicky behavior. If it were me, as a safety precaution I would most likely add a bit of oil and some water to any feed and/or soak the hay rations just to be certain they remain hydrated.

In two weeks, if they haven't had any colicky episodes, I would do a five day, double dose power pak. It is one of the only wormers that will kill off the roundworms in various life stages.

Please be aware that fecal checks are not 100% reliable. My gypsy colt had a clean fecal check, but had round worms upon getting him, this also recently happened to another forum member several weeks back. The most unfortunate thing about round worms is that they can remain in an environment for up to ten years. Since it is typically young horses or health compromised horses that are succeptable, if you are going to have any foals or other young horses on the property in the years to come, you must be extremely vigilant of the worming program. Cold or freezing temps have little effect on round worms, the only thing that has been found the slightest bit effective is composting manure and allowing high internal temps to be achieved.

Round worms are not necessarily an indicator that the foals had a poor upbringing in unkept conditions, but rather once they are in the environment, they are there to stay. The worming program needs to be executed to a "t" and an innocent inaccurate low dose of wormer or missed worming can set things in motion.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The fenbendazole five day course is the way to go, but it is an "extra" it does not take the place of your normal wormer, which in my case is always Ivermectin. I worm every eight weeks as per the instructions, and then usually a little later than this, but it is fine to do them now, I also use praziquantel for tapes and fenbendazole five day course for encysteds. Your horses will never be worm free and, in fact, it does not benefit them to be so, what we aim for is a good balance so the worms do not get out of control.

 

[Sandee]

When I had a foal, I learned that foals after they are weaned should be wormed about every month as they tend to put everything in their mouths (just like babies). Therefore they pick up worms more easily and have no natural defense as do grown horses.

 

[misty'smom]

Thank you, all your advice has been helpful. Misty seems just fine no colic symptoms and Josie is fine too. I have not seen any more signs of the worms just the one. If there are more and the wormer med has killed them will my fillies pass them?

I will go to one of my farm supply stores tomorrow and try to get the Fenbendazole 5 day treatment. I think I read that there is a wormer that is given daily and is added to their feed, has anyone ever heard or used a product like that?

Yes Sandee they both are like babies or I should say like toddlers into everything and mouthing everything. I keep my barn and field area "baby proof"!!

 

[rabbitsfizz]

I would not use a daily wormer. Apart form anything else the only one on the market has the chemical in it that has the highest resistance level in worms! The main reason I would into use it is...well, no need to do all this, just Google it and you will see all the specs for yourself.

 

[Sandee]

Even if you use a daily wormer, they will still tell you to use ivermectin about 4x a year (I think ).

If you're having any trouble getting them to take the wormer, coat the outside of the tube with a little molasses or most anything sweet. After a time or two they will be looking for it as a "treat". I did this with when my filly was growing and can now worm her without even putting on a halter.

 

[Carolyn R]

From my experience, when I had more minis here when I was breeding, I did use daily wormer as a precaution, more mouths to feed, more manure, more space management, .....but I really believe, and my vets believe this too, it is best to worm foals every month regardless of the daily wormer. When you start a daily wormer you must use an ivermectin based wormer, then starting the very next day, start them on the daily wormer. You can't skip day either for it to be effective.

 

[Lewella]

Large Roundworms in the North American are showing resistance to Ivermectin and that might be why you did not see worms the previous deworming with Ivermectin and you did from this deworming with Fendbendazole.

 

[rabbitsfizz]

They may do, or they may not- I could only find one survey carried out in 2008 and that concluded that, whilst it may be that some horses have a "return" of infestation within the eight weeks, Ivermectin is still the best product and there is no other chemical even on the horizon, to take it's place, which is a little worrying!

Fenbendazole is pretty good at getting roundworms, but it is not good at getting anything else, not in a single dose, so should really not be used as a " rotator" - not that I rotate, anyway. I am pretty sure the most effective worming programme is still to use Ivermectin as a base, and add Fenbendazole and Praziquantel twice a year.

 

[Lewella]

Oh Jane... You just need to look further! PubMed is a great source for studies that have shown the resistance problems that are rapidly developing with ivermectin - here are a few examples:

Research proving ivermectin resistance in large roundworms:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22494940 - 2012 France "first report of ivermectin-resistant P. equorum populations in France"

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19930608 - 2009 Sweden "Ivermectin resistance was shown in 5 out of 6 farms. Therefore, ivermectin should not be the drug of choice in the control of P. equorum infections in foals."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19201100 - 2009 Italy "This data shows that P. equorum-resistant populations are present also in Italy and the phenomenon is spreading in horses throughout Europe."

http://67.212.230.121/~eggzamin/eggz/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Craig-2007-Evidence-of-Ivermectin-Resistance-by-Parascaris-equorum-1.pdf - 2007 Texas "The evidence is quite strong that Parascaris were not adequately removed by treatment with ivermectin paste. In fact, there was a significant rise in egg counts indicating maturation of worms already present in the intestine."

There have also been studies conducted in Sweden, Kentucky, Minnesota, Canada and Germany that have reached the same conclusion but I can't find links to them right off hand.

Recent research proving developing ivermectin resistance in small stongyles:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23318166 - 2012 Brazil

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22538094 - 2012 France

Joint research into ivermectin resistance in both small strongyles and large roundworms:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21689886 - 2011 Finland

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20340086 - 2010 Turkey

Some other general articles on the subject of ivermectin resistance:

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/25364/roundworm-resistance-to-dewormers-assessed-in-canada

http://www.thehorse.com/articles/27009/fenbendazole-better-treatment-for-fighting-resistant-ascarids-aaep-2010

 

[Minimor]

Yes, it's long been known that there is some ivermectin resistance developing in ascarids. We haven't found any such resistance here in our horses--it was 2005 when a local vet advised us to deworm our foals with strongid, because of the ivermectin resistance....we followed his advice & got nothing for worms. Two weeks later I dewormed again with ivermectin & got roundworms out of our foals. I haven't used strongid since and when deworming foals (and yearlings) with ivermectin we do continue to find it is killing the ascarids. But--that doesn't mean that there isn't a resistance on other farms, or in other areas, and it doesn't mean that we won't in future find that we have a resistance here too. Proof of resistance has been well enough documented now that I do not doubt it exists.

I do remember reading--and I don't remember who initially put this information out there--years back that with the extensive use of ivermectin young horses were having the ascarids cleaned out of them too effectively--and those young horses were then not developing a normal resistance to the worms. I do not know just how accurate that information was--but if it is accurate (and I can see that it is a good possibility, because ivermectin has been a very popular and very effective dewormer for years) I can see that adding to a resistance problem--you have horses with little immunity to the worms, and you have worms that are resistant to a favored dewormer...

It has also been said--proven even--that widespread use of ivermectin has pretty much eliminated the damage caused by the small stongyles as they migrate through the body, simply because the drug has eliminated the worms, therefore there are none to migrate. However, a couple years back a local vet said that he had seen two horses that died as a result of damage caused by migrating strongyles. He stated that both horses had been on regular deworming programs. If this is true it is a bit worrisome, because it means that our horses may not be as protected as we may think. I would not blame the dewormer's lack of effectiveness, though, when I do not personally know the horse owners in question--just because I do know that what some people say is a regular deworming program is really not--"Sure, I deworm him regularly" may very well mean "well, I try to remember to deworm my horses every 18 months or so"

 

[Rhondaalaska]

Ok so what should be used after ivermectin ? I did Diva in December with it. How often do you worm in the north or cold areas?

Am I suppose to do it monthly like I have been reading?

 

[rabbitsfizz]

The migrating strongyles and encysteds are removed by the Fenbendazole five day course but it should be used as well as, not instead of, the Ivermectin. Even though there may be resistance (in America, none has been found in Europe) Ivermectin is still the most effective base wormer on the market.

Lewella:

" Reduced efficacy of IVM (Ivermectin) was found in one animal on one farm"

This from the French survey- I have read all of those reports and the results are, at best, sketchy. I have no desire to hijack this thread, perhaps if you feel strongly enough about this, and I know you have mentioned these reports before as that was when I sat down and read through them all, you would start another post on the reduced efficacy of Ivermectin?

 

[wingnut]

I followed both recommendations from my vet and experts here on the board. Little ones get wormed every month until they're a year old. Every other month they would get Ivermectin and the opposite month would be either fenbendazole or pyrantel pamoate.

 

[misty'smom]

I did not mean to "open a can of worms here" no pun intended!! But lots of great advice from everyone! The common thread of recommendation here was to give fenbendazole for 5 days which I started today. I looked back at my calendar and I had given them Ivermectin in November then I used Pyrantel pamoate almost a week ago. It was the day after the pyrantel pamoate was given that I saw Misty pass the long round worm. Will I always see the worms get passed or is that only when there are adult worms present?

My next question is how often should I use fenbendazole and should it always be a 5 day course? Joy your plan seems pretty simple, worm monthly until my fillies reach 1 year which will be in the spring. Use Ivermectin one month and fenbendazole or pyrantel pamoate the next month. Joy do you do a 5 day or single dose of the fenbendazole?

Not a pleasant subject to stir up opinions on but I am learning about the best care for my babies! I had hoses growing up but the big guys so the minis are new for me and it has been many, many years since I owned a horse. I have learned a lot here so far and I am sure I will have more questions as my fillies grow up and get trained! Thanks everyone!!!!!

 

[Carolyn R]

I personally only use ivermectins, ivermectin plus products like zimectrin gold and I can't recall the other similar one, but very close to zimectrin gold, and the power PAC doses of fenbendazole.

I don't use the single doses of fenbendazole or the single doses of pyrantel pomoate ( but did use daily wormer when I had more minis here). I just don't feel the later of the examples Of single paste doses are potent enough to be as effective.