War on Christmas

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

The whole point is to include everyone, not to exclude anyone, including Christians. As with so many things, the idiots have twisted it all around.
It's stupid and wrong to tell people NOT to say merry Christmas, but please don't wrap this up in "angry white man" (the oh-so-pitiful abused majority) rhetoric. This does more disservice to Christmas than anything else.

How about wishing people [your personal holiday] AND Happy Holidays??? That way you honor your own beliefs AND pay respect to theirs.

Sadly, many of the ultra-conservative Christians act as if their own religion is the only one that matters, and think that they are denying their own beliefs if they honor the beliefs of another person (many proudly state that they truly believe this). This is so wrong, and a major reason why I don't call myself a Christian.

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not going to get to into this thread but I will say VERY WELL SAID HERE!

To me I dont care what you say ..as always it is the intention behind what you say more so then the words a majority of the time IMO

 

[Sunny]

Ooooh, this is a red hot topic with me this year!! I am sick to death of Christmas being treated like dirt, and the words Merry Christmas not allowed as if they are dirty words!!!

If it's any consolation, which I'm sure it's not, it's the very same here in Canada. I'm so sick of trying not to offend anyone, but who the heck is it anyway that we're trying so hard not to offend?? The ones who come here and say they don't like the way we do certain things in our country and that we must conform to THEIR ways?? Our country was founded on God-fearing beliefs and traditions and I'll be dammed if someone is going to tell me what I can and can't say and what I can and can't celebrate! And those who come here (or were born here obviously) are free to worship and celebrate anything they choose to, unlike in many of the countries they came from!! So why can't WE??? And why are Christmas and Easter two of the biggest holidays of the year for EVERYONE if it's only some who celebrate them? I sure don't see non-Christians of any kind, and those who are opposed to Christmas, stepping up and saying, oh it's okay, I'll work on those stat holidays because I don't recognize them. But no, they get the time off, plus time off for their own holidays because God forbid they should be offended! And why is it that every person over the age of three can sing you every carol and every song about snowmen and reindeer (like THEY'RE Christmassy) and Santa Claus, but who can sing one Hannukah song or a Kwaanzaa song? No one, except those of those faiths. Are there even any songs for or about the solstice?

I'm really not directing this to any one faith or belief or lack thereof. The majority of people in Canada and the U.S. celebrate CHRISTMAS, and no one does or should have the right to stop them or even make them feel uncomfortable about it. I'm not offended if someone is of a different faith than I am, and neither should they be offended by us. But neither am I going to ask which holiday a person celebrates before I wish them a happy one.

This whole stupid Politically Correct crap has gone waaaaaaaay too far. I'm sensing a growing intolerance for it, though, finally!!

So MERRY CHRISTMAS and HAPPY NEW YEAR to all of you! Oops, sorry, maybe those who believe that the new year doesn't start until sometime in late January might be offended. Too bad.

 

[AJ]

I have often wondered about all the people that are welcomed here because they are looking for better lives and lieving their countries where things are bad AND THEN they want us to change to be like their old country. Go figure. There used to be a saying , When in Rome do like the Romans do.

 

[nootka]

Sadly, many of the ultra-conservative Christians act as if their own religion is the only one that matters, and think that they are denying their own beliefs if they honor the beliefs of another person (many proudly state that they truly believe this). This is so wrong, and a major reason why I don't call myself a Christian.

susanne has stated it very aptly....

I myself feel no need for any religious organization in my life.

I grew up with a mentally ill and substance-abusing mother (and her parents) spouting Catholicism whenever she was "off" and then claiming she was forgiven, etc. etc. and saw firsthand the damage that guilt can do to a person's soul (not that that was the only reason she was nuts, but it definitely contributed). Seemed to me to be a pretty sick way to look at life as in whatever you do wrong, as long as you don't commit suicide, you are forgiven. Yikes!

Anyway, I feel that religion as a whole was used in earlier times to help control people, more as a primitive government (and IMHO, it still has too much presence in government in many cases). Look at the awful things done to other humans in the name of religious causes. Look at the way some of these organizations exploit a belief in spiritualism and basically steal money from people who often have little to spare, and put it to ill use, line their own pockets. It is sad.

I would NEVER tell someone they can't say Merry Christmas or anything, or even "One Nation Under God" because I understand the sentiment behind it, and I don't want to say anything bad about something that brings much joy and security to so many.

However, when people start pointing fingers and passing judgments on others for their beliefs or lack of, it becomes elitism, and this is NOT a god-like trait! Here we are, mere human beings and assuming to interpret "god's" desires and communications. I don't believe it for a minute. If there IS a god, that same person/being does not care to whom we were born, what color they were, what name they whispered when they needed guidance or help, how much money they made, or WHERE they worship, or even IF they worship. In other words, every person is exactly equal, be it newborn baby or the convicted murderer. It would be impossible to offend such a perfect being, otherwise they are imperfect and like us...and I just can't accept it. The threat of heck is a scare tactic, I feel...and again, I would think unecessary for most.

I do truly believe in the Golden Rule, however, and like to treat others as I would like to be treated by them. I don't think a lack of religion makes a person bad, or without remorse or morals. In my case, I choose to conduct myself in a way that I don't feel bad or guilty about my actions, and if I do something wrong, I need to change my behavior and understand why I did that, etc. In other words, be responsible for myself and not cause other people (other living things) unhappiness or pain.

I guess I could go on and on, but Merry Christmas to everyone.

Liz M.

 

[susanne]

who can sing one Hannukah song or a Kwaanzaa song? No one, except those of those faiths.

Dredel, dredel, dredel... but that hardly counts.

Are there even any songs for or about the solstice?

"In the Bleak Midwinter," in my opinion the most beautiful of "Christmas" songs, is actually a pagan song about the winter solstice.

...............

Seriously, though, the popularity of Christmas songs has nothing to do with the innate superiority of Christianity or anything other than record industry marketing, Hollywood and pop culture

I celebrate the entire holiday season -- if you limit it to Christmas, you are losing out on so much. We celebrate Hannukah with our Jewish friends, the Winter Solstice with other friends, and the New year, as well as Christmas.

As for the school Christmas pageants...once again, why not be inclusive instead of exclusive? The original idea was to let ALL children in any given school participate. Saying that a parent should just keep their child out of the pageant forgets that children need to belong, to fit in.

 

[hobbyhorse23]

Hobbyhorse.
I have had bad experiences with hypocrital "Christians" since childhood. I get very uneasy at times, even hear on the board with certain subjects.

However, the point was that because some people "might" be offended our right to celebrate Christmas is vanishing. How many people took part in Christmas paqeants in school? How many sang Christmas carols in school and had Christmas parties in your classes? The children today are NOT allowed to do these things because it "might' offend someone. Yet they are teaching children about other religeons and to be accepting of them.

Our government buildings are no longer allowed to put up Christmas decorations. Some person who has been offended by the Ten Commandments sues and the courts take away a sculpture that has been in front of a courthouse for MANY years.

If you are offended, don't look!!

If you are offended by Christmas Carols, turn off the radio.

If you are offended by children haveing Christmas pageants in school, don't have your child participate.

I am sooooooo TIRED of trying NOT to offend someone.

People have taken the PC thing too far.

I am offended if you don't like me saying Merry Christmas.

I am offended if you don't like the Nativity scene out in front of the local church.

I am offended that Children can no longer go trick or treating and have Halloween parties at school because it is "evil".

I am offended that children can not sing Christmas carols in school.

I am offended by many more things but will stop here. 

This is NOT just a Christian thing.

I do not go to church. I do not preach my beliefs to others.

I do not believe that only ONE religeon is right and if you aren't with them your going to he__. Oops, thats going back to my childhood again, but I still don't believe it.

This country was founded on the Right to be able to say and believe whatever you choose.

I am offended that that Right is being taken away. When and where will this all stop? If people don't speak up for their rights, soon no one will have any and we will be back in the dark ages with government telling us what we can and cannot say and believe.

There is an old saying that comes from the Arabian Nations, This is not a quote but as close as I can come.( Don't let the camel get its nose in the tent. If you let the nose in, the camel will push the rest of the way in.)

In other words, if you allow a little of your freedoms to be taken away, don't be surprised when you lose them all.

Robin

This post has been edited by Robin1: Yesterday, 06:03 PM

Whoa.

Uh, Robin? You get the part where I was AGREEING with you, right? I'm trying not to take this personally as I suspect you weren't aiming all that at me but wow. I'm on your side!

I'm the first one to look at things like the Patriot Act and go "Give a mouse a cookie...."

I'm about this close to moving to Canada until Bush is out of office. And heck yeah- Merry Christmas!

Leia

 

[Robin1]

Sorry Leia,

No it was not ALL aimed at you.

I started a simple reply to you and look what happened.

Sometimes you get going and have a hard time stopping.

Susanne, you are absolutely right and I apologize for saying that parents can keep their kids out of the pageants.

When I was in school we did pageants and did include songs for Hannukah. I have many friends of the Jewish faith and celebrate with them as they celebrate with me.

There was no Kwaanzaa when I was in school so that wasn't an issue. Come to think of it, I don't know anybody that celebrates it.

I think you took the original post in a way that I didn't intend. I believe that everybody has the right and should celebrate the holidays that they believe in, but I don't like that Christmas isn't Christmas because someone may be offended. I certainly would never be offended if someone wished me a Happy Hannukah. I have been and wish them a happy one too.

My parents had many friends of different religeons that came around at Christmas when I was a kid. None of our Jewish friends were offended that we had a "Christmas" tree, or that we wished them a Merry Christmas along with a Happy Hannukah.

This morning on the radio the 2 DJ's were joking that it was best when someone wished you a Happy this or Merry that, to just say, "back at ya." How sad is that.

Robin

 

[Trinity_Acres]

[SIZE=16pt]What an excellent letter...I couldn't have said it better myself! I agree wholeheartedly. This whole "I'm offended" and "political correctness" bit just gets me all riled up! Move outta the way, Janine's steppin' up to her soap box! [/SIZE]

This whole issue goes a lot farther than a simple "Merry Christmas" However, it looks to me like the general concensus on this forum is that "Merry Christmas" should stay a part of Christmas.

I think that's wonderful. Who would have ever believed this would become an issue???? If our ancestors only knew! Oh, how disappointed they would be.

I am a Christian and I work in a church...and guess what??? We're allowed to say Merry Christmas, play Christmas music and put up decorations!! We'll even have a Christmas party for the staff!! And believe it or not, we're still well adjusted and happy people!!!! (I'm mostly well adjusted anyway

)

Yes, Christmas is a Christian Holiday yet non-Christians celebrate this day. I have no problem with that! As a Christian, sure...I'd like people to get to know Jesus in a very personal way...BUT, I'm not going to judge those who don't believe in Him and say they can't celebrate Christmas! That's absurd!! The whole meaning behind Christmas is LOVE! I still have respect for that person and what they wish to believe! The problem is that people today have no respect or tolerance of one another or their beliefs. We're all too concerned about ourselves and get all wrapped up in what offends us. I'm including Christians as well. I confess, there are times when my halo's been on so tight...I given everyone around me a headache!

Would you believe I've been known to offend???

Ironically, in the schools today... our children are being taught to be tolerant of other lifestyles all the while they're removing any mention of God from our schools? But wait, I thought we're to be tolerant of others???...oh, with the exception of religion that's right!

If we can be tolerant of someone's lifestyle, why can't we go a step further and be tolerant of their religious beliefs too? Our beliefs are all a part of our lifestyle and makes us who we are. This political correctness is ridiculous. It just seems silly if you ask me.

When did it become okay for a person to tell us how to celebrate our beliefs and change our right to free speech? I'll tell you this...if I worked for a company that told me that I couldn't say, "Merry Christmas", I'd be making somebody mad for sure and wouldn't have my job very long! I have the right to free speech...no one has the right to take that from me! NOT EVEN MY BOSS!!

Here's a thought!...I say all those who are offended by "Merry Christmas" should simply not be allowed to take part in the celebration!... Those offended, need to show up for work on the 25th with no holiday pay mind you, no bonuses, no parties, and bsolutely no exchanging of gifts! No Christmas sales for you pal! No Christmas tree or lights, and no big family dinner Oh yes, be sure to include those large companies filling their bureaucratic pockets on the tails of the very Christian holiday that offends them!

The way I see it, you can't have your cake and eat it too! I believe the person that takes offense, well...needs to learn

[SIZE=21pt]"t o l e r a n c e" and "r e s p e c t" [/SIZE]

for others and get off their high horse!

And to those of us out there that believe it's okay to say Merry Christmas... My question is this, if the majority of Americans don't have a problem with "Merry Christmas" How on earth did this to happen? Yes, we have a voice and a right to use it...but are we? I'm guilty of passively sitting by and complaining yet I'll tell my kids to stand up for what they believe in.

Hey! Here's a suggestion... How about we remove the "Quaker" guy from the oatmeal box??? Oh come on...his religion offends me and I'll only eat "politically correct oatmeal

) (jk)

I'm not flaming anyone's beliefs. As for me... all this political correctness is a bunch of bunk! How on earth did our ancestors survive with out it???? I'D SAY THEY DID VERY WELL!!! and were much happier polite and respectable people with integrity and moral character! That's pretty close to extinction anymore!

We need to realize we will be offended and will offend someone at sometime doing something! Good grief!! Why hold onto the offense? We only hurt ourselves. Because most likely the "offender" doesn't know or even care that you're offended. Hmmm...that leaves you to carry the grudge and be unhappy. All because we disagree!

I wish everyone, (Christian, non-Christian, red, yellow, black or white) a very Merry Christmas...and if you're offended by that...well, go ahead and hold onto that offense. Your offense is just that ... YOURS!

Janine

 

[sedeh]

I'm so glad you posted this! I had the hardest time finding cards this year that said Merry Christmas! I went through boxes and boxes of Happy Holidays before I finally found one with Christmas in it. It's absurd that Merry Christmas is no longer politically correct.......give me a break! And a very MERRY CHRISTMAS to all!

 

[Farmhand]

Merry Christmas to all, if it offends anyone TOUGH

 

[Denise]

I refuse to say happy holidays. I always say Merry Christmas and Happy New Year and if they dont like it to bad. I dont get offended when other religions celebrate their holidays so leave us to celebrate ours! MERRY CHRISTMAS everybody!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too]

I for one am totally sick of the us against them mentality. It's a greeting for gawd sakes, not an epithet. So to those I offend as far as I'm concerned you can all go bleep yourselves but have a Merry Christmas anyway

Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas,Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas!!!!!!

 

[Trinity_Acres]

Triggy...You go girl!!

[SIZE=27pt][/SIZE]

MERRY CHRISTMAS!!

 

[Jill]

Happy Holidays is the easiest solution, I feel. That's what I put on my clients' "Christmas" (haha) cards.

It's not America that's becoming ridiculous. It's a free country you can leave if you feel it's becoming overly ridiculous.

What's ridiculous is that there are a lot of people looking for opportunities to become upset. In my experience, if you are looking for a reason to get bent out of shape, you're sure to find one.

So, anyhow, Happy Holidays you all!

 

[ForMyACDs]

I can actually understand the tendency toward using the phrase "Happy Holidays". After all, Christmas has become more than just a holiday to celebrate the birth of Christ. It's become an all encompassing money maker that has completely obliterated every other holiday in its path........a holiday that now shows up now even before Halloween has been celebrated! It's a commercial enterprise and no longer seems to mean anything except who can buy/receive the greatest gifts.

Happy Holidays is not meant to "take the Christ out of Christmas" but rather to acknowledge some of the other holidays around this same time (any more this includes Thanksgiving AND NewYears too) that the commercialized Christmas has bulldozed over. The only references to X-Mas that I ever see are only in an effort to save typing or writing in a hurry....not a scheme to eliminate the meaning of the holiday as many would like to make you think.

The people that are lamenting the missing "Merry Christmas" in stores? Well, if the season were truly to you what you say then why do you even care what the stores do? After all, the season is NOT about gifts is it? How many of you donate to people in NEED rather than shower your family and friends (most of whom already have more than what they need) with money and presents? By buying the gifts you're only adding to the commercialization of the holiday and turning Christmas in to something you claim you don't want it to be.

How many Christians realize why Christmas is even celebrated in December? Did you realize that it was placed during this time of year because the pagan peasants who were being converted to Christianity celebrated the solstice during this time and it was far easier for the missionaries to change the purpose of the celebration than it was to eliminate the celebration. So, essentially, they allowed the pagans to continue their solstice celebration but with a "twist". Interesting eh? In essence Christians are still celebrating a pagan holiday.

Now, Janine mentions that those who take offence need to learn tolerance and respect. I ask......does that mean that if you find offence with the actions or beliefs of someone else that you expect to learn tolerance and respect yourself or does that only apply to someone finding offence with you beliefs? I ask this because I see this attitude an awful lot in people who outwardly call themselves Christians. They scream and holler about how everyone needs to respect their beliefs but do not extend that respect to others of a different belief. I say this not to bash Janine, but to give people something to think about.........if you are asking for respect and tolerance are you willing to give it? and of course this leads to another point along the same lines:

Robin wrote:

If you are offended, don't look!!

If you are offended by Christmas Carols, turn off the radio.

If you are offended by children haveing Christmas pageants in school, don't have your child participate.

I am sooooooo TIRED of trying NOT to offend someone.

I ask you Robin.......if we were to replace your references in the above text to Christmas and Christian themes with references to Gays or maybe even Islamic references would your attitude be different? This is the same thing I was speaking of before. If you're demanding respect and tolerance are you willing to give it? Again, this wasn't meant as a bash on Robin, but rather as something to think about.

Okay, I'm off to spend time with my family.......no Christmas shopping here (we donate to favorite charities instead) and finish off my Holiday cards (our friends are a diverse bunch and rather than list off a huge number of holidays I hope to wish those people Happy Holidays too as well as celebrate the Holiday that WE love to celebrate). Does that take the Christ out of Chrismas? No, I don't believe it does......my personal feeling about the holidays this time of year is personal......I don't expect everyone to feel the same as I do and I don't feel the need to shout it and I certainly don't expect everyone else to shout it for me either.

Edited to repair erroneous name reference

 

[runamuk]

Happy Holidays to you where have you been lately I miss reading your posts.

May you and yours have a wonderful new year.

Rori

I can actually understand the tendency toward using the phrase "Happy Holidays".  After all, Christmas has become more than just a holiday to celebrate the birth of Christ.  It's become an all encompassing money maker that has completely obliterated every other holiday in its path........a holiday that now shows up now even before Halloween has been celebrated!  It's a commercial enterprise and no longer seems to mean anything except who can buy/receive the greatest gifts. 
Happy Holidays is not meant to "take the Christ out of Christmas" but rather to acknowledge some of the other holidays around this same time (any more this includes Thanksgiving AND NewYears too) that the commercialized Christmas has bulldozed over.  The only references to X-Mas that I ever see are only in an effort to save typing or writing in a hurry....not a scheme to eliminate the meaning of the holiday as many would like to make you think.

The people that are lamenting the missing "Merry Christmas" in stores?  Well, if the season were truly to you what you say then why do you even care what the stores do?  After all, the season is NOT about gifts is it?  How many of you donate to people in NEED rather than shower your family and friends (most of whom already have more than what they need) with money and presents?  By buying the gifts you're only adding to the commercialization of the holiday and turning Christmas in to something you claim you don't want it to be.

How many Christians realize why Christmas is even celebrated in December?  Did you realize that it was placed during this time of year because the pagan peasants who were being converted to Christianity celebrated the solstice during this time and it was far easier for the missionaries to change the purpose of the celebration than it was to eliminate the celebration.  So, essentially, they allowed the pagans to continue their solstice celebration but with a "twist".  Interesting eh?  In essence Christians are still celebrating a pagan holiday. 

Now, Janine mentions that those who take offence need to learn tolerance and respect.  I ask......does that mean that if you find offence with the actions or beliefs of someone else that you expect to learn tolerance and respect yourself or does that only apply to someone finding offence with you beliefs?  I ask this because I see this attitude an awful lot in people who outwardly call themselves Christians.  They scream and holler about how everyone needs to respect their beliefs but do not extend that respect to others of a different belief.  I say this not to bash Janine, but to give people something to think about.........if you are asking for respect and tolerance are you willing to give it?  and of course this leads to another point along the same lines:

Robin wrote:

If you are offended, don't look!!

If you are offended by Christmas Carols, turn off the radio.

If you are offended by children haveing Christmas pageants in school, don't have your child participate.

I am sooooooo TIRED of trying NOT to offend someone.

I ask you Robin.......if we were to replace your references in the above text to Christmas and Christian themes with references to Gays or maybe even Islamic references would your attitude be different?  This is the same thing I was speaking of before.  If you're demanding respect and tolerance are you willing to give it?  Again, this wasn't meant as a bash on Robin, but rather as something to think about.

Okay, I'm off to spend time with my family.......no Christmas shopping here (we donate to favorite charities instead) and finish off my Holiday cards (our friends are a diverse bunch and rather than list off a huge number of holidays I hope to wish those people Happy Holidays too as well as celebrate the Holiday that WE love to celebrate).  Does that take the Christ out of Chrismas?  No, I don't believe it does......my personal feeling about the holidays this time of year is personal......I don't expect everyone to feel the same as I do and I don't feel the need to shout it and I certainly don't expect everyone else to shout it for me either.

Edited to repair erroneous name reference

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[susanne]

ForMyACDs,

I absolutely agree. Thank you!

(And I second Rori's comment...I miss reading your thoughtful posts!)

 

[Sunny]

ForMyACDs, that was a BRILLIANT post! You certainly raised some excellent points.

 

[Robin1]

Robin wrote:
If you are offended, don't look!!

If you are offended by Christmas Carols, turn off the radio.

If you are offended by children haveing Christmas pageants in school, don't have your child participate.

I am sooooooo TIRED of trying NOT to offend someone.

I ask you Robin.......if we were to replace your references in the above text to Christmas and Christian themes with references to Gays or maybe even Islamic references would your attitude be different?  This is the same thing I was speaking of before.  If you're demanding respect and tolerance are you willing to give it?

Without question!!! AS I said, everybody has the right to believe the way they wish. I don't wish to change their holidays or beliefs just as I don't want mine to be changed.

Robin

 

[ForMyACDs]

Without question!!!  AS I said, everybody has the right to believe the way they wish.  I don't wish to change their holidays or beliefs just as I don't want mine to be changed.
Robin

Excellent! That is what I was hoping to hear, but I still don't see how saying "Happy Holidays" to you changes your beliefs. No one is telling YOU that you can't celebrate Christmas. Maybe only asking that you not expect everyone else to celebrate YOUR holiday the way YOU want them to. After all you don't have a cross drawn on your forehead for these strangers to know what holiday it is you celebrate. Even so, they don't have to wish me a Happy anything so getting a "Happy Holiday" is still a reminder of the importance of the season.

Sorry guys, I've been away for a while. I've been working long hours at the vet clinic as I'm the only full-time employee left. One had a baby in February and is back only part-time, two are due in the spring to have babies and have dropped down to part-time and the last one (the only guy other than the vet that works there) has also dropped down to part time in order to go back to school because his girlfriend is due to have a baby in the spring. I won't be having children (don't feel I would make a good parent and don't feel I have what it takes to raise a child properly) so the workload falls to me. I'm happy for all of them, but a little overworked at this moment.

We currently don't have minis as of the two we had, one (a rescue) we lost to colic (easy to do when you have a horse that had never been wormed......worms do an awful lot of damage) and the other we donated to a family who'd been duped by a "rescue" and dumped with a psychotic pony that the "rescue" wouldn't take back. Rather than have them be duped again we sent our beloved "Miles" to them.

We DO currently have a pony (named "P." we gave her another name but in the process of finding a name for her "P." kind of stuck and we've been unable to get rid of it). P. is supposed to be cart trained (Amish) but when I "get some free time" we will be retraining her. She has some trust issues so I'm not sure how complete her training was. P. in a sense is our livestock guardian for our Dairy Goats. We had a tough year with the goats this year and it's been kind of all consuming with our time (between that and completing the interior of the barn) so I don't get much time. I'm also trying to spend more of my free time on my artwork and that takes a lot of the time I spent at the computer away, but I'm sure happier for it.

Yes, I miss you guys too.

edited to clarify a murky point