Voter ID Laws -- Your Thoughts? (POLL & DISCUSSION)

[Margo_C-T]

I have read this entire thread with interest. Ozmandias, I had to comment because I so TOTALLY agree with your post. It is PATENTLY UNFAIR to those who have followed the rules for so many to 'get by' and 'get by', and 'get by', when they acted in TOTAL DISREGARD for those rules. If there were no OTHER reason to STOP LETTING illegal immigrants(and I don't care WHERE they are from)get away with sneaking into,and staying, in our sovereign country, that one alone should be enough!

It's SOOOO 'in' to go on and on about 'rights'; but how often do we hear the same level of concern about 'responsibilities'?

I wholeheartedly believe in requiring verifiable ID in order to vote, BTW.Oh, and I agree w/ ozmandias--having read every post in this thread, I think it has been overall civil and an excellent exercise of frank discussion; I've seen no one 'not being nice'.

Margo, who remembers a simpler, but believe me,a MUCH better country/world.

 

[ozymandias]

Thanks for the kind words Margo

I think for anyone who doesn't see it (and I know you do Margo) - I see it this way simplified...

If Nike were releasing a limited edition sports shoe and only 300 were made...how would those waiting outside in line for the release, being polite, causing no trouble, sitting in the rain, just patiently waiting on their lawn chairs for an entire week before hand, feel if on the morning the store opened 1 or 2 hundred people cut in front just because they felt they were more entitled to the shoes and didn't feel like waiting like everyone else did! That's not how a civilized person behaves in a society that they care about. We all have to abide by the same unwritten rules of behavior to make life better for all. If those people cut in line after you'd waited all week...would you think it's okay if the store manager said "well, they're here now - let them have the shoes!" Sorry to all of you who did it the right way - sorry we've "sold out" No way!!!

 

[Jill]

^ Now that's a great analogy ^

 

[Miniv]

EXCELLENT analogy!

 

[bevann]

I voted Yes and want to give my 2 cents on the illegal immigration issues.In my small DE town we have a chicken processing plant and a clam processing plant.we have TONS of illegal immigrants mostly grom Guatamala.They have learned how to work the system and are now receiving food stamps and other benefits from our state government.BUT THEY WILL WORK at anything you ask them to do.During the summer when we are putting up hay they are willing to work.If I go to certain areas of our town and countryside and ask for workers(born here) I get the reply that it is too hot for them to work in the sun.(they get checks from the state and food stamps and Medicaid)Why work?We have 3 or 4 generations of the same family where no one in the family of 6-8 children has ever been employed.Why work when you get everything you need given to you.Many of the illegals that are here have fake papers.1 man told me if he goes home for a visit he can come back to his wife and daughter here, but a new set of papers will cost him $5000 so he can cross the border.I really don't like paying taxes to support people who contribute nothing and have more babies for me to support. I LOVE THE ANALOGY!!!!

 

[vickie gee]

Of course voters should have to produce an ID. Of course there is a combination of groups of people that will declare it is racist. They have an agenda to get their man re-elected. They want to declare that us birthers are racist in wanting to see a REAL birth certificate (as in a NOT FAKE) one on the POTUS. I can barely stand to watch Bill OReily any more but I have accidentally caught him having guests who are fools trying to explain why an ID is racist. America is starting to see an upstart of the media covering big stories that are hate crimes and racially motivated crimes. The writing was already on the wall. If we go into civil unrest then martial law can be declared and guess what? NO ELECTION. Yep, some of what is headlining appears to be racially motivated crimes. And yes, hate crimes do exist but they are not limited to any specific class of people committing them and the number of classes they are committed against are ever increasing. But are there conspiracy theories? You betcha. Was Chelsey Clinton's life threatened? Not in anyway defending the Clintons, but google it and decide for yourself. In addition to getting the votes of the illegals and blocking the votes of the military who are predominantly conservative votes the plan is in place to get the vote of the working class tax paying blacks who previously voted for him (bHo) but have steered away from him to NOW come back and vote for him because of what "appears" to racism and oppression going on in America. No, I am not saying racism, discrimination, and prejudice does not exist. It exists just as reverse discrimination exists. What I am saying is that plain and simply the people that do not want voters to produce an ID have a reason for their claim. Certainly it IS NOT discrimination but they are so desperate and dishonest that is their claim.

 

[ohmt]

I'm sorry, but anyone that still believes they haven't seen the REAL birth certificate of the president needs to start getting their news from reliable sources. Good grief people, how paranoid can you get? That might not be "nice", but COME ON.

 

[vickie gee]

No need to be sorry, admittingly I am no doubt just as "paranoid" as Orley Taits and Sheriff Joe and will just leave it at that.

I do not think you are "not nice" and we each can believe what we believe. No hard feelings.

 

[Riverrose28]

PLease don't misunderstand me, I mean no ill intent, I just feel that one party should not be singled out as having undocumented voters. I think we all are against illegal voting and fraud. I do feel it is unjustified to say "undocumented democrates" as fraud goes all the way from right to left.

 

[ohmt]

I am glad you don't take it personally, Vickie, as I sincerely don't mean it that way. My boyfriend and I are on completely opposite ends of the political spectrum, but are best friends otherwise. That being said, I really wish people would get off the "Obama is an illegal citizen with a fake birth certificate and is a muslim out to take down the country" kick and focus on actual problems. Our media has people so uninformed and backwards, it's sad and scary.

 

[tagalong]

There have been quite a few attempts at backdoor amnesty by the current administration and that may play an understandable role in renewed public interest -- I think that's a good thing and hard to criticize.

As someone who is here LEGALLY it annoys me to no end that President Obama AND President Bush both were looking into amnesty for illegals. It has happened on both sides. I was plenty annoyed at GWB for seeming to think it was okay to kick all of us (who have jumped through all the flaming hoops and done everything by the book as required) in the teeth and talk about amnesty for illegals - and then when Obama came along and made suggestions along the same lines, I was beyond POed. Seriously? Really??!! Why did I bother doing all this the long hard way when I could have just been illegal and been granted amnesty. Much easier. Much, much less stress. I cannot tell you how stressful it is. Much less paperwork and $$$$. Stupid me.

Not that I would ever do that. Why? Because it is ILLEGAL.

This topic always makes me mad. Arrrrgh. Yeah - grant amnesty to illegals. Show all of us who have worked so hard and followed the law and done everything that has been asked of us just how much we matter - like, not at all. Thanks ever so much.

As far as the whole birther thing goes... the birth certificate WAS real. The state of Hawaii confirmed it many times over - and it matched other Hawaii birth certificates. Hawaii must be lying, I guess. The long form was also shown early on in the birther "scandal" (that wasn't) back during the 2008 election (I had it saved on my old computer) and again recently. It always makes me sigh when this topic comes again as birthers must think McCain and Palin were STUPID - if there was any doubt whatsoever they would have gone after it. Geez, how stupid they were!! They weren't stupid - they were smart. They knew a manufactured scandal when they saw one. Ditto for whoever the current GOP candidate will be. Orly Taitz and Donald Trump (who will say anything to get his name in the news - as will Arpaio these days) must be smarter than all those fools. I note that Trump's "secret investigators" that he had "hired" have never given their real report. Go figure.

I suppose that the birth notice in the Honolulu paper waaay back when was strategically done all those years ago just in case that kid somehow managed to become President. And no, it was not photoshopped or CGIed - it was found on microfiche archives that were buried deep and can still be seen that way. But whatever... I just wish people would focus on real issues instead of made up conspiracies that go nowhere. We will have to agree to disagree, vickie gee. And you have no reason to be sorry, ohmt. None at all.

Anyway...

YES, one should show ID proving you are a citizen when voting - to prove you are the name on the voting list. I do not know how voting works here - is there not a voting list that you must be matched up against the way it happens in Canada? We always had to show ID that proved we were who we said we were - and that ID had to match the name on the voters' list as well.

Strangely enough, about a month after I first came here, I got a big creamy envelope with no return address in the mail full of brochures about how to get counterfeit green cards etc. Now - the only people who knew my address at that point were my US employer and Immigration. And I know my boss did not send me that stuff. So someone who could see the Immigration files... yikes...

I trashed that envelope as fast as I could. No thank you.

Now I wish I had hung onto it and maybe turned it over to Someone. Not sure who... and there was no way to figure out where it came from. The contacts were all hotmail or gmail or yahoo email addresses.

And to show you how odd things can get, I have also had 2 jury summonses. I had to explain to them that as much as I would like to do jury duty (it would be interesting!) I had to be excused. They asked what my excuse was and I told them I was not a citizen. They had to look it up. Ooops. That makes me think that maybe somehow I am on a voters list as well... how would that happen??

 

[Jill]

Vickie, I too have been very fascinated by the investigation that Sheriff Joe has been doing, and then also about the (resulting?) investigation OF Sheriff Joe. I'm not convinced we've seen the truth yet. If nothing else, it has made for interesting reading, thinking and viewing.

 

[brasstackminis]

I say that ID's should be required...period! That being said I think that the process of becoming a legal citizen is flawed. I have a friend who joined the military to become a citizen. She is from Jamaica. Her father is a legal citizen...came over for some sort of running in the Olympics?? She could have become a citizen just because of that. Not sure why she joined the USAF (where I met her) to become a citizen. Anyways, she is now trying to get her mother over here legally. She has been working on the paperwork for 7 years!!! WHY? I am not suggesting that we just let anyone and everyone over with no background checking etc. But that is just too long and not right. I think if they made it easier...for those who are willing to go through the hoops, there would be less illegals. It should not be exceedingly cost prohibitive either! If those who were really coming over to work were allowed to do it legally in a timely manner, then they would have their id's and pay into the tax system. I also have a hard time with the minimum wage...not sure if it really helps. I know that there are farmers that have been caught using illeagal workers and have been forced to only hire legal citizens and pay min wage. They are now broke, there is produce on the ground rotting, because those who can be hired will not work as hard for as little. THEY QUIT!!! The illegals are taking jobs...but a lot of those jobs are not wanted by the US citizens. Then again...who can live on min wage??? Even full time hours? It is a broken system with lots of facets and no simple answers...I guess that is why it is controversial!

 

[andi]

Hey Brasstack

I think you hit on some keypoints and I think it is important to look at the other sides reasoning and be brave enough to acknowledge neither side is 100% wrong or right.

I think this topic has proven exactly the point MY analogy was very clearly making. We have a simple topic that is focused one one singular law that most of us agree on. But is SPOILED by many other much more "questionable" opinions and motives that have nothing to do with first. If this entire topic was posted before I voted I would have shaken my head and not even wanted to be so involved in the vote, whether I agreed or not with the original question.

 

[Jill]

Thanks for sharing your insights, Brass. There are not any easy answers to the immigration problem. Maybe one thing it could do, though, is serve as a reminder to all of us how lucky we are. You don't hear about large numbers of Americans immigrating to any other nations.

 

[andi]

I think there is a very very easy answer. CUT OFF 100% any and all benefits if you are not a legal citizen, penalize and fine severely any one found to be "hiring" and paying any illegal immigrants, and very important, make it extremely exponentially "easier" to become legal.

By doing so take away any "motivation" to remain Illegal and make the alternative much more attainable. Very very simple.

My advice to everyone, if you are going to pretend to be wanting an open honest discussion, don't ignore the very opinions you asked for on the bases that we should just all focus on how superior we are to the other countries. One thing has no effect on the other. It is just a random statement to make you think that you and the person are agreeing, when in reality, you are being ignored and belittled. This is exactly how sleazy politicians get control. "Great points ... I hear you ... I disagree with 90% of what you said, but don’t want to lose your vote, so let’s just focus on how awesome we are, we can all agree on that, right?” Smile Wave Smile

 

[tagalong]

You don't hear about large numbers of Americans immigrating to any other nations.

Many do, though. To Europe, Canada, Down Under. The neighbours down the road sold their horse property, packed up and moved to Ontario. Canada, not California.

The main focus is on who is trying to get in illegally as opposed to who is legal - or leaving...

 

[Jill]

Tag, people are not leaving the USA in droves

This has been interesting to follow, and I'm not surprised the vast majority of us do think ID should be required to vote

 

[tagalong]

Where did I ever say they did, Jill ? I know you like to find fault with almost everything I say in these threads at times but I was just making an observation. More folks leave than it seems you would likely expect. I meet them all the time on immigration forums asking the same questions others ask about visas, visa quotas, citizenship, the ability to own property if one is not a citizen of said country etc. etc.

Could someone please answer my question about voting procedures here? Do you need to show ID and get checked off a list or what?

 

[Jill]

Could someone please answer my question about voting procedures here? Do you need to show ID and get checked off a list or what?

Varies by the state. Here's a map: http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx