Venting about two problem dogs

[Watcheye]

Dog A: Has attacked house cats on several occasions (constantly being pardoned by mom and brother) eventually killing 2cats on 2 separate occasions. Displays obsessive behavior and possession over mom including being underfoot constantly in the house, leaning on/pushing and sitting on her feet/legs. Stalks and attempts to chase horses. Guinea pigs must be kept locked in a separate room as he has killed two busting into their cage to my horror when it had been moved out of my room (Remaining cat must also be kept away). Has aggressive and nervous body language including lip licking and stiff/arcing posture. Takes a lot of work to get to mind on a leash. Is VERY food aggressive. Has little respect for mom out doors. Takes off often and doesnt come when called. Tends to go nuts if mom moves around the house rushing to the door or barking. Gets along fine with most other dogs.

Dog B: Is kind of a ditz. Very good on a leash and easy to train. Comes when called. Does not bother horses and is often a companion in the barn. Does not bother other small house animals. Knows he is not to bark when I come out and tell him to stop but will constantly carry on if mom moves around the house and Im not there as he knows he can get away with it. Would like to be under moms feet if I didnt stop him from it. Is very sensitive. Gets along fine with most other dogs.

These two get into nasty fights with each other. I am never in the room when it starts. I am frustrated as I feel that a lot of it has to do with excitement and possession over mom and it is ALWAYS dog B who gets 100% of the blame. Dog A gets excused constantly and his red flag behavior is overlooked. I think a large problem is the possessiveness and her lack of control. I cant always be there and my brother beats the tar out of dog B for every fight they have. He is the one that gets muzzled or locked up while the other is treated like a prince. I purposely bought TWO muzzles to be used on these dogs when issues arose. Of course they need more than muzzles but I feel like I get absolutely no cooperation in trying to solve the problem. I feel like so many of the answers are right in front of us but not everyone is on board with admitting the trouble and going through the extra effort to step up.

:frusty

 

[REO]

Poor dog B getting beaten.

IMO dog A needs to go.

 

[Watcheye]

Dog B does fight hard once into it and does not back down. He does deserve a good swift reminder of his mistake but yes I feel strongly that it takes two to tango and he doesnt need to be beaten senseless and dog A desperately needs to be reminded who is really running the show in the house and its not him.

 

[Minimor]

Here, Dog A would have been gone long ago--cat killing will absolutely not be tolerated here.

If it were me....one of those times when Dog A goes out & takes off/doesn't come back when called....Dog A would disappear for good.

 

[Taylor Richelle]

Dog A really needs to go - He would have been long gone after showing any aggression towards any cat

Dog B doesn't deserve to get blamed - he sounds like he only really fights when Dog A starts it. Dog B sounds like the better dog IMO.

 

[Jill]

Not sure if I'm picturing this right or not, but I am thinking "Dog A" is your mom's "golden dog". Sounds like, for whatever reason, she really favors him and since she probably has a significant say in the matter, he's probably NOT going to go. I can't even imagine the cat killing, but if what I am imagining as far as the dynamic between mom and "A", he's there to stay.

We've never had those kinds of issues, but I know when a dog loves me a lot and is protective of me, they do score brownie points with me as the Mom. Probably silly, but I bet it's that way for some other people (like your Mom), too.

If that's the case, that A moving on is not an option, I wonder if there are any kinds of behavior modification technicques you could do with him? I really don't know because I've never looked into or tried, but maybe there would be some things you could do to get this dog to chill out a little.

Are there are ways to keep A and B apart as much as possible... ie, A is your mom's dog and usually with her, and B is your dog, and usually with you. A way to feed them in different locations. Not sure a food agression can be modified, or modified without a lot of knowledge and work (?). I'd also want to keep them separate when no one is home. I'm betting possessive / jealousy issues about your mom, attention, and food are the triggers but you never know what could happen when you're gone. Years ago, a friend of mine had her big dog kill her little dog when she was gone. Even w/o a size difference, an all out dog fight can really hurt the dogs.

Best of luck.

 

[shorthorsemom]

Hi, jumping in here.... Fact is that this is a VERY dangerous situation for dogs and humans. These dogs need to be separated immediately. Professional help is needed if owner of dogs is unwilling to place one of the dogs elsewhere. Beating a dog for a dog fight makes the problem much much worse. This is the most important thing that I need to get across. There is ABSOLUTELY no reason to ever beat a dog to train it. In fact, beating the dog most likely is escalating the problem to dangerous porportions. Muzzles are not going to fix the problem. Separate and train is the only solution, or place one of the two dogs elsewhere.

See it from the dogs point of view... Dog A hates Dog B.. They fight, brother beats dog B. Dog A brain says "Hey, I was right to beat up dog B, because the human beats up dog B too... Or... "Hey, if I beat up dog B, human will beat up dog B too and that is going to escalate Dog A higher in the pack hierachy from a doggie point of view.

The only example I can think of to drive the point home about no hitting would be the dog that gets smacked for growling and raising a lip. Dog quiets when owner smacks the dog. What have we created here? The equivalent of turning off a ticker on a time bomb. Bomb will still go off, but will be silent right up until the explosion. Dog is still upset, Owner has not addressed the issue as to why the dog is growling in the first place... These are the dogs that bite without warning, they have been taught not to express themselves when they are stressed.

This situation is a LOSE LOSE situation for both owners and dogs and very sad indeed. Dogs are easily motivated by food and counter conditioning takes time and dedication and alot of work on the owners part to make these dogs able to get along. You cannot force them to get along, you can train them to do so.

I have been training dogs more than half my life... I work with owners of problem dogs, but the owner has to want to help the situation. If the owner doesn't really want to make this work, the only recommendation I would have would be to re-home Dog B. Hopefully dog B will not have lasting temperament issues from the abuse and thrashing it has received from the brother.

Poor dogs, please encourage them to get some help before it is too late.:No-SadYou are right to be worried and correct in your venting.

 

[Watcheye]

I suppose I should specify that yes dog B is my dog. I didnt want it to be a "my dog your dog" kind of thing so I did dog A and B as I do not feel that I am favoring one over the other. BOTH need correcting. My frustration comes from the fact that mom and brother refuse to address dog A and instead see dog B as a convenient scape goat. They will not do what needs to be done to correct dog A. They will not discipline him and are in complete denial about the role he plays in these fights. BOTH dogs are very likely to fight if shoved face to face. Dog A bristles any time he sees dog B go by. I watch him. Dog B will go after him generally if he growls. If I am there he generally avoids it as I am the boss with him when I am there. I dont allow goofy pacing and yapping in the house. I dont allow things to escalate to that point. I am dominant and I make myself known by making dog A move away and out of my space (not by hitting him). I do have a deep voice that I can and will use on all of them.

I should specify that the house belongs more to dog B than dog A as it is mine and dog B is mine. From there things get long and complicated and are probably grounds for a different thread. Ive kind of been steam rolled into having dog A there. sigh...

 

[shorthorsemom]

I suppose I should specify that yes dog B is my dog. I didnt want it to be a "my dog your dog" kind of thing so I did dog A and B as I do not feel that I am favoring one over the other. BOTH need correcting. My frustration comes from the fact that mom and brother refuse to address dog A and instead see dog B as a convenient scape goat. They will not do what needs to be done to correct dog A. They will not discipline him and are in complete denial about the role he plays in these fights. BOTH dogs are very likely to fight if shoved face to face. Dog A bristles any time he sees dog B go by. I watch him. Dog B will go after him generally if he growls. If I am there he generally avoids it as I am the boss with him when I am there. I dont allow goofy pacing and yapping in the house. I dont allow things to escalate to that point. I am dominant and I make myself known by making dog A move away and out of my space (not by hitting him). I do have a deep voice that I can and will use on all of them.

I should specify that the house belongs more to dog B than dog A as it is mine and dog B is mine. From there things get long and complicated and are probably grounds for a different thread. Ive kind of been steam rolled into having dog A there. sigh...

Oh, even sadder that it is your own special dog that is taking the beating and getting picked on

you must be becide yourself.

Hard to describe the desentization procedure by typing it out..but I will try. What needs to be worked on is that your dog first needs a break, so I would suggest separating when you can't be there in the room with them. Dogs must be on leash in doors, crated or separated when not supervised... . You need a helper for this part... because with two different people working together you can have somebody hold your mother's dog on a leash and you walk your dog into the room also on a leash... As your dog enters, the person holding your mother's dog on the leash rewards her dog with a treat, then you exit and praise your dog with a treat outside the room, enter room with your dog (before her dog can react negatively) moms dog will get a treat, you exit, praise your dog and treat in the other room.... enter exit... treat, so your mother's dog will begin to associate your dog entering a room with kind words and a treat from the person holding the leash. Your mother's dog will start to think... hey, when that dog comes in... I get FOOD. wow, it must be a nice dog and the dog will start associating your dog entering the room with treats being rewarded. Rule is that both dogs must be on a lead. Do not let the dogs get close together... just enter room treat and praise. This is a process... so you do a little every day and keep it controlled and calm. No hitting or yelling, just work to get your mother's dog to quit the focus stare part. Handlers must have quiet and calm body language. I would also suggest clicker training each dog, you can add a click ... when the dog looks at the person holding the leash, praise and feed. click praise feed... as an exercise. You realy need to work with a pro trainer in your house, but I am just trying to write out a couple of suggestions to try to break the focus and change the dog's way of thinking about eachother.

You sound like you have good alpha body language and the problem is the other two people in your life that are creating the problem. I have always treated growling as a good thing.. consider it a warning. A communication... the dog is saying "hey I am stressed, hey I have a problem with this dog... or situation or whatever. The growl is a warning... you need to find out what is causing the growl and work on that rather than work on silencing the growl. Dogs that are just growling are exihibiting inhibition... they are holding back and warning.. ignore the warning, and it explodes into the next level and that is aggression and biting. These dogs are stressed.

You can also try one of those DAP diffusers. They are like the glade plug in... they can help calm a household by emitting pheromes that smell like mommy dog. I use them when introducing a new dog into my pack... it can help.

Rather than dicipline for unwanted behavior, praise for the correct behavior. Use the pack leader body language as dicipline. It sounds like from your description that you have the body language right since the dogs have respect in your presence. Protect your dog no matter what...

Good luck and best wishes, I hope you can find some peace.

It can be very stressful when the pack is disturbed. PS.. What breeds and sizes are these dogs? Just curious.

 

[Watcheye]

Dog A's name is Dawson and he is likely a full blooded Husky. Dog B's name is Luca and he is a Husky Shepherd cross. Both are large males in the 80 pound range.

I feel strongly about asserting that humans are the alphas. I agree with taking them out and making them mind at a heel and then after business is taken care of, letting them run and play in the yard. All of us can exist in the room together especially if Im there. The trouble comes with the fact that the dogs associate my mom with being nuts. They get over excited and pretty much walk all over her. She will not admit this. The actions she has taken to lead to this is that she doesnt make them wait calmly at the door. They plow her over crashing into it and she can hardly open it just to let them go exploding into the yard and wherever they please (often resulting in them taking off - except for Luca). They are conditioned that any time she moves through the house (literally)they will get to go be nuts. I insist on calmly and quietly walking to the door. Waiting till I say ok come out, and walking next to me to go to the woods to do their business. Once that is over we can play in the yard. If we go for walks its at a heel and a good pace. This is a simple fix but because it is not carried out with all of them all of the time they associate her with being batty and excitement escalates in the house and they get into fights as both males tend to be possessive of her. I can only do so much on my own.

That is the big frustration. The problems are obvious and there is no consistency and cooperation here.

To me if a dog growls it is a warning but it should not have gotten to that point. The dog is taking matters into his own hands as boss and I missed something. If there is growling all parties are to remember who is in charge and back the heck up. Literally. They all need to back off of each others and my space immediately. I am not beyond standing over one of them either.

I do reward calm and quiet behavior and give attention to them and pets in the house when they are being good. When outside we play.

Walks at the heel minding the handler are very good for them and I feel should be done a lot more. Especially with Dawson who struggles with minding and heeling. I can get him to do it though and am comfortable with it. I can walk both of them at the same time at a heel. It just takes a little extra work.

I feel bad because as I mentioned there is no consistency. I cant always control Dawson without mom making it worse as she gets very dramatic and actual emotion is not what we need dealing with such situations. Unfortunately this means I am extra controlling of poor Luca in the house.

 

[Reignmaker Miniatures]

Are these intact males? Neutering often helps ease a dogs need for dominance to. I am a big believer in spaying and neutering, the hormones create an increase in all emotional behaviors in dogs. Like gelding a stallion, neutering a dog can make living with them easier. If dog B were mine I'd first have him neutered and 2nd be sure I had a kennel to confine him to when I couldn't be with him. I am taking about a kennel outdoors with a nice cozy shelter/house to go into when the weather was bad. That way my dog would be protected from the danger of serious injury in the fights and also from the beatings when I was not around. I would also use my 'alpha dog' persona to make it clear that no one disciplines my dog but me- EVER. You can't do much about your mom's dog and I won't make a guess about your living situation, families can be very complicated, but I would do what it took to keep my dog safe both physically and mentally from the abuse the others see fit to pile on him. That would mean keeping him with me and when that was impossible giving him his own space where he was safe and comfortable. JMO

 

[Miniv]

Are these intact males? Neutering often helps ease a dogs need for dominance to. I am a big believer in spaying and neutering, the hormones create an increase in all emotional behaviors in dogs. Like gelding a stallion, neutering a dog can make living with them easier. If dog B were mine I'd first have him neutered and 2nd be sure I had a kennel to confine him to when I couldn't be with him. I am taking about a kennel outdoors with a nice cozy shelter/house to go into when the weather was bad. That way my dog would be protected from the danger of serious injury in the fights and also from the beatings when I was not around. I would also use my 'alpha dog' persona to make it clear that no one disciplines my dog but me- EVER. You can't do much about your mom's dog and I won't make a guess about your living situation, families can be very complicated, but I would do what it took to keep my dog safe both physically and mentally from the abuse the others see fit to pile on him. That would mean keeping him with me and when that was impossible giving him his own space where he was safe and comfortable. JMO

I think Reignmaker gave some very good advice.......

BOTH dogs need to be neutered. I would INSIST on that. If your dog, Dawson, is neutered and the other dog is not, that may cause more dominance issues.

The other good thing that Reignmaker suggested is finding a way to keep Dawson either with you or in a "safe place" when you aren't with him. There should be a rule in the family of HANDS OFF for your dog when you aren't around. BEATING an animal should NEVER tolerated. If you had a child, would you allow someone to BEAT him or her??? (I'd be in that person's face if they manhandled my dog or child.) Use your creativity with figuring out a "safe place", if making an outdoor kennel isn't possible.

Sounds like a tough living situation, but good luck. Hope something is works out.

 

[Riverrose28]

Shorthorsemom has given you a very good way in dealing with getting these two dogs acclimated to accepting each other, but it will take time and consistancy. Lots of rewards. I do have one thing to say about the husky breed in general. You must at all times be the leader, they were bred to kill vermine, such as mice, rats and small animal that ventured into the tents, this was breed into them, and they don't know the difference between a toy dog or a small cat or vermine, they are bred to kill all things small. You can train it out of them if they are introduced at a young age to other animals that are small, such as cats, but the instinct is still there. That is why dog A has killed your cats, and if dog B follows the pack he will join in on the killing. Since dog A was not raised with cats you are justified in keeping the cats away from dog A. On the subject of beating dog B, would this person beat their spouse, friend, child, sibling because they didn't like something that was being done or said. You don't hit your friends, family, etc. Dogs don't understand being hit by a member of their pack. People are or should be at the top of the pack and to hit another member moves them way down in the pack and therefore the others will fight them more often as they think it is acceptable to put them down. Would you hit your best friend? No! So don't hit your dog, he doesn't understand, you may use body language, a load voice or noise a sharp correction on a lead, but never hit, it's not acceptable so tell all in your family you will not tolerate it. Also and you may not like what I'm about to say, but your Mother is an enabler to dog A, and maybe even dog B, she needs to learn how to be more assertive with huskies, and be above them in the pack, they are walking all over her and she is letting them behave this way. She is rewarding dog A in his bad behavior. You may try giving her a coffee can filled with stones to shake at the dogs at the slightest indication of misbehavior, maybe the noise will distract them, also to call the offender to her and reward for coming and distract this dog from misbehaving. There is a lesson called "turn away" where you teach the dog to turn away from the other dog and then reward the dog when it turns away, but not with food as that may cause another fight, just by praise. It does work. Good luck, as I know first hand how hard huskies can be to train.

 

[Helicopter]

Get rid of dog A and get rid of your brother as well! ASAP

In fact if it's your house kick the lot of them out......except dog B

 

[Riverrose28]

Get rid of dog A and get rid of your brother as well! ASAP

In fact if it's your house kick the lot of them out......except dog B

 

[Watcheye]

Dog B is my dog and his name is Luca. Dawson is the other dog.

 

[Field-of-Dreams]

We had the same problem with our shepherd and husky/shepherd cross. The only thing that worked was keeping them separated- ALWAYS. Sarge stayed in the living room and Snow ran the rest of the house. If Sarge had to go out, Snow went upstairs till he came back in. When Sargie went to bed with me Snow then had the run of the house. Sometimes we tied Sarge out on the front porch- which LOVED- and Snow could run.

Was it a PITA? Sure. But it worked.

 

[shorthorsemom]

You can rest assured one thing... you have all of us on your side, and nobody is supportive of your brother or mother's behavior. You have good instincts and obviously handle yourself well around the dogs, that is obvious by the difference in their behavior when you are present. Protect your dog at all costs, no matter what it takes. Never leave your dog to be handled by your mother, brother or have your dog in the presence of the other dog without being there, never means never too, no exceptions to the rule, it is the only way to start progressing back into a safe situation .

Huskies are a terrific breed, but the very thing inside a husky that can make it a dog that can pull a sled for hundreds of miles in the blinding snow under harsh conditions, also makes it a dog that can be difficult to train and difficult to get trained out of an unwanted behavior. They are driven and strong and have stamina and intelligence. I really don't have much else to tell you because after reading your posts, I am confident that truly you already know what to do, you just are frustrated and sharing your pain with all of us at the treatment of your beloved dog. These are big dogs which compounds the problem and makes it more dangerous for the humans involved. Your brother is very close to driving your dog to the point of a harsh bite and correction and if it happens it will be 100% his fault. He is forcing your dog into a biting situation.

I know what it is like to have a dog clueless mom, my mother is like that, but thank the goodness she doesn't live with me and her dog weighs only 15lbs.

Hopefully both dogs are neutered, but even neutered, two male dogs living together with a permissive family member having major influence and you have a recipe for disaster of huge porportion. If those dogs ever seriously get into it, there is going to be major damage and big vet bills and maybe human doctor bills. To drive the point home... I had a friend with 6 german shepherds... Her newest young dog was trying to gain status in the pack and challenging the alpha. The friend figured they would "work it out eventually" Her dogs really got into it one day and her husband tried to step in and separate the dogs. In a blink of an eye, one of the dogs lashed back and tore his finger off. I swear the dog didn't realize it was her husband, the dog just snapped out when he touched the dog. It was horrible... Dog was put down, she was a sweet dog, just needed a bit of space and training. Preventing the bite or preventing the fight is the best thing you can do for your dog. Best wishes.

Adair

 

[Watcheye]

Yeah I started this post simply to gripe as I could see the issues and how to handle them but wasnt getting the rest of the family on board. It seems like a "simple fix" if everyone would cooperate. I agree and did know when we took in the dogs that Huskies are a very challenging breed. Both are rescue dogs. When my mom and brother went to adopt Dawson I had mentioned I was worried about bringing a Husky into the house as we had small animals. Luca is half husky as well but we got him as a puppy.

I strongly feel there are things about myself I need to change even with my own dog Luca. Im trying to find more time to spend with him outside to get rid of some of his energy. Unfortunately I just started another job and have been rather beat lately. Im trying to settle into my new schedule and pick up the pace outside with the dogs and horses again (all still are well cared for but I could stand to be out and about doing more fun things with them).

When the dogs got into it I was in my room and went out to split up the fight (which started by the door of course where there is a lot of rushing around and general nuttiness) My mom was already "at the scene of the crime" but it takes two people to split these dummies up because they are stubborn idiots. My brother cut me off and in order to stop Luca he slammed him hard and repeatedly with his fists. Of course I told him to knock it off and he stormed off. I will say that I have spanked my dog before in weak moments (not with my fists) but I do much prefer lead corrections, body language (including stomping - not on the dog), and voice (I use a booming voice almost a bellow).

Its actually odd about my mom and dogs. She is a great animal person. Deep down she does know what should be done. Shes been going through a lot of personal struggles and somewhere along the way she has just gotten kind of weak in that department I guess. I think she uses Dawson as a crutch and that gets frustrating which ultimately started this post.

 

[weebiscuit]

I don't have much to add to what everyone else said. However, I have a friend who had the same type of situation with two dogs. Growling, fighting, not getting along in the house due to dominance/protective issues. One day she came home from work and found blood all over the house, and followed it into the living room, where one of the dogs lay dead, killed by the other one. The other dog was euthanized, as she felt that once it tasted blood and killed another dog it couldn't be trusted, and I believe she did the right thing. The dogs were German shepherd mixes, but I don't think they had Huskie in them.

If Dog A has killed other animals, it is NOT a dog that can ever be trusted. Once they have killed and tasted blood it seems that they are set on a path that will be very difficult to get them off.

My daughter, several years back, got a German Pinscher, and then realized it was just too hard having a dog when she lived alone and worked full time, so I took it. I had another dog at the time... a small rat terrier which I'd had for ten years. The Pinscher was two years old when I brought it home, and it terrorized my rat terrier like you wouldn't believe. Not "play" terrorizing, either, but terrible snapping, growling and biting. One night I was home alone and the Pinscher grabbed my terrier and dragged it across the floor, with its jaws clamped on its neck, and it began shaking my terrier. Blood was streaming from his neck... he lost bowel control. I was screaming and had nothing nearby to hit the Pinscher with to get him to release my dog, so, against ALL reason, as I knew it was the wrong thing to do, I reached in to grab the Pinscher's collar, and he turned and lunged at me and bit me in the thumbnail, clean through the thumb.

At least he broke the grip on the terrier, who scrambled behind the sofa. The Pinscher tried to get back at my dog, but I kicked him hard in the thigh and that sort of brought him to his senses, but believe me, he was like a wild animal that night. I called my son, who lives just across the hayfield, and he came up and took the Pinscher to his house and locked him in his garage. I had to take my terrier to the vet at 10 PM for emergency stitches to stop the bleeding. Then I went to the ER and got four stitches in my thumb. My vet, after hearing what happened, was very upset and said the Pinscher needed to be put down, because it could never be trusted again, and what if it did that to another person or what if someone was walking down the road with a dog and I had the Pinscher at the barn, and he ran onto the road and attacked their dog? So, sadly, the Pinscher was put down the next day. I always felt just horrible about it, but I could never live through another attack like that. Sometimes dogs just escalate their bad behavior and there's not much you can do to stop it without taking them to a professional trainer and months of behavior modification.

I don't envy your situation, but if that dog has killed cats and guinea hens, it will NEVER stop killing animals. Perhaps the best place for it would be with a retired couple who have no other animals and will be around all the time to give it attention. Sometimes giving up a dog is the best thing you can do for it.