Upright tin-can hooves despite regular trims

[BiologyBrain]

The minis I work with (but don't own or have control of all their care) are good little guys. The largest one has seriously upright tin-can feet. In the slightly more than a year that I've been working with them, I very been trying to get this boy's feet cut down. The trimmer comes out every 4-6 weeks (just started 6 week trims) and is generally good, but nothing has significantly changed on this little guy's feet. The trimmer is coming tomorrow & I'm hoping to try to convince him to do something a bit differently. I've been trying to convince him to take more hoof when he trims, but he sees some pink he stops. At that point he's only taken a few centimeters if that, so nothing really changes. I've tried rasping once a week or so to 'train' the quick back (like you do on dogs nails), but never really get anywhere. He stands on his soles. At the moment he's not lame, but he spends much of his time hobbling along or just laying down. I've found many examples of feet that look like this little guy's & people always label it as neglect. I know for a fact this guy isn't neglected, he's just in-adequately trimmed. I just don't know how to address the issue.

Anyone have any tips on what I can say to this trimmer (he does a decent job on the draft & the other 3 minis) to finally get him to take a drastic amount of hoof off instead of being conservative???

 

[disneyhorse]

We can't really offer much advice with this information. Could you at least provide photos? Is the horse foundered ? If so that could be contributing. Lots of good farriers around here like working with X-rays if possible to determine what the inner structures are doing.

 

[Foxhaven]

He SHOULD stop at the pink. The horse will be VERY tender if he doesn't - it's not really quite like a dog's nail, LOTS more weight on the end of the 'nail'. Do talk to your (trimmer? farrier? I'd go with the latter...).

It *sounds* like he is just not taking enough heel off, and running into pink near the toe. Find a farrier who will teach you proper trimming/rasping, who will teach you about the horse's foot anatomy and proper angles and why he/she would do xyz in such a situation. You will feel much more on top of things.

I think you meant millimeters; several centimeters is HUGE. A little at a time allows the tendons to adjust, you don't want to change things radically and quickly.

Agreed, a picture is critical to really see what is happening.

 

[shorthorsemom]

I had a farrier turn one of my minis feet into tin cans. Since I knew this was not how my minis hooves were like and it was not a case of club foot I went in search of a new farrier. It took almost a year to get his feet back to normal working with the new guy. You cant safely take off great amounts of hoof all at once (unless in the case of severe founder correction where it is emergency situation and the horse is in great pain already "elf shoe founder cases")...

anyway... The first farrier that turned my boys feet into cans tried to do a hard trim and ended up showing pink and making my boy very sore footed. It took 3 weeks for the lameness to go away from the trim that was supposed to fix the problem of too much heel and not enough angle. My current farrier measures angles and he does a great job.

My guy has perfect feet now. By the way.. the first farrier does biggie horses and has many folks happy with his trimming. He could not trim my minis at all. Lots of old school farriers leave lots of heel on ponies and minis. I once even heard one guy say you have to leave all the heel on a pony. Keep leaving the heels and trimming the toes and before you know it, you have created tin can hooves.

good luck and best wishes

 

[Marsha Cassada]

You may want to look up Barefoot trimming on the internet and contact someone on that site. Whatever is going on with the hoof is a symptom of something else.

AANHCP is the acronym.

I know it is hard to find out answers sometimes. One thing you could try is giving him a dose of banamine. If he is not walking because he is in pain, this will tell you that. If he is in pain, you may need to get more answers than what your farrier can give. He could be lamanitic. I know, the terrible L Word...

Good luck.

 

[romewhip]

Totally agree with Foxhaven- less heel, not less hoof. I've had to be really specific with my farrier as to how I want my pony's feet trimmed, he's a good guy and listens. Pony wasn't moving the best, feet were too short with not enough toe and too much heel which changed his pastern angle and made him move choppy. You can't trim into pink!!!

It took a few months to get my pony where I like him, and now it's maintenance- a little bit at a time. It is better to do weekly rasping than trim a large amount every 6 weeks. Try rasping more heel, so that the natural spread occurs. He may also need some of the sole trimmed, if he has big thick soles, so that he can achieve natural concavity.

 

[MindyLee]

I can only help with this. Pics would be nice.

 

[Marty]

I finally had to get rid of my farrier that I had for years. She would not listen to me and I ended up with club feet. Its taken my new farrier now two trims and we're on the way back to normal but its not going to happen over night.

 

[Foxhaven]

Talking to my farrier, it seems like a very common occurrence that full-size horse trimmers end up leaving way too much heel on a mini. A mini's foot is shaped somewhat differently. I guess that fools a full size trimmer's eyes or something, dunno. BUT... a common occurrence apparently. She runs into it frequently.

Now try to find someone who can trim a DONKEY'S foot correctly... very different AGAIN. I am SO GRATEFUL for Ingrid.

(and for that matter, our horses had too much heel when we got them from a very good breeder. Not dramatically, but a bit too much. My avatar picture keeps bugging me in that regard.

)

 

[BiologyBrain]

Thank you. The trimmer came out and was able to make at least 1 foot look more normal. He told me I can rasp perhaps once a week or every other week (depending on the condition of the hooves). If the heels get out of control I can nip them slightly. With the ground nice and soft, the boys were very active - trotting, cantering, and bucking.

If I can keep them sound I plan on exercising them in the field, but also take some walks down the asphalt to give their feet some road-rasping. Between the exercise and rasping I'm hoping the boys will all have normal feet soon. It's just taking a really long time.

FWIW I posted photos less than a year ago. I'll see if I can get some comparison shots in the next few days. Seeing him running around & bucking yesterday was great - a first actually. Now if I can keep him that way. ;-)

 

[BSharpRanch]

The ground being soft is your biggest demond in your "tin can" hooves. I advise all of my client's that have issues to remove bedding anf "soft". Minis have no weight (compared to big horses) so soft footing allows their feet to do whatever they want. IF a horse has great lower limb conformation then soft is not a problem, however if a horse is prone to club feet or to laxities, no amount of "corrective" trimming will help them until the soft footing is removed and they are placed on hard pack. They can have a small "bed", however they really need to have solid footing IF you want improvement.

 

[Foxhaven]

Thank you. The trimmer came out and was able to make at least 1 foot look more normal. He told me I can rasp perhaps once a week or every other week (depending on the condition of the hooves). If the heels get out of control I can nip them slightly. With the ground nice and soft, the boys were very active - trotting, cantering, and bucking.

If I can keep them sound I plan on exercising them in the field, but also take some walks down the asphalt to give their feet some road-rasping. Between the exercise and rasping I'm hoping the boys will all have normal feet soon. It's just taking a really long time.

FWIW I posted photos less than a year ago. I'll see if I can get some comparison shots in the next few days. Seeing him running around & bucking yesterday was great - a first actually. Now if I can keep him that way. ;-)

I've notice that doing the asphalt mile loop near our house at a trot, Legend seems to wear the toe more than the heel - slightly. At least he seems to increase the mustang roll a bit. YMMV. Regular rasping is a very good idea.

BTW... I discovered there is a HUGE variation in rasp quality. I was using the normal ag store rasp for a bit, then noticed what an easier time my farrier was having. She could take off a lot more using the rough side than I could per rasp (so much so she rarely uses that side). She had a spare new one so she sold me that at her cost... Oh my. Quite a difference. Less effort and easier to be more precise.

 

[Foxhaven]

Out of idle curiosity I did a Google and this article came up, might be interesting. Be aware the mini's hoof wall is a LOT thinner (you knew that) so the roll is a lot more subtle.

http://www.easycareinc.com/Education/articles/mustang_roll.aspx

It has some references to other good sources.

 

[shorthorsemom]

A pea gravel dry lot makes for some gorgeous concave, nicely shaped super decent hooves. Ever since I changed up my loafing area and added pea gravel my guys have had really nice beautiful feet that don't get wild between farrier trimming, so I agree with bsharp ranch above that you need some time on some solid or dry footing and not always on grass, pack or dirt.

 

[Casey0Lee]

We need photos.

Mini's tend to grow a lot of heel. The heel should be taken back to the widest part of the frog, just like a normal horse should for a balanced trim.

 

[BiologyBrain]

Thanks again. Today the ground is frozen rock hard and the little guy didn't seem sore from it or his trim. I'm hoping we're making progress that I'm too close to notice. It's hard to evaluate when I see his feet all the time (for me). They're still obviously too long, but apparently the little guy feels some improvement.

I'd love to give the guys some pea gravel, but I've mentioned it to the owner & he's not keen on the idea, so I'll let that go for now. I'll just start using the road and his gravel driveway more often when I work the boys. They live in a large pasture and the barn is packed dirt with no real bedding (a very thin layer of cedar shavings occasionally or wasted hay. I'll also try to stay on top of rasping the heels especially and the toe only if there is a problem (white line separation).

His frog is definitely NOT the widest part of his hoof right now. His collateral grooves are so deep I'm afraid I'm not doing much good to help prevent or erradicate thrush (the reason I was hired to work with the guys last year). Before I can work on the thrush and contracted frog, I've got to get him sound and his feet less upright and tin-can-like. Exercise and a hoof short enough to allow the frog proper contact with the ground will alleviate the thrush and contracted frog. We've still got quite a while until we get there.

Here's the rasp I'm using - http://ridersrasp.com/ridersrasptrail.htm

It's incredibly useful and pretty easy to use - even for me with a weak left arm.

 

[MindyLee]

For more help... pics would really help us here to answer anymore questions.

 

[shorthorsemom]

too bad you can't try pea gravel, but I do know it is a bit pricy and you have to replenish often until it stops sinking into the ground, so I understand why it might be a challenge being able to try it.. Since I started using it in the night loafing area I have ceased to ever have a case of thrush. For about 4 to 5 years... no thrush. Has to be the gravel acting like little brooms and cleaning out the bacteria and debris.

 

[HGFarm]

Beware of the gravel in areas where they eat. I know someone who did their entire area in gravel, including the area where the horses eat and they lost a horse due to eating rocks and had colic all the time due to it! However I do agree with having hard ground to be on.

I would still try a different farrier. Just from what you are saying BOTH feet, not just one, should match in the angle to each other, not one looking better than the other. And with this much regular work, why would the horse be having white line problems?

 

[Foxhaven]

Thanks again. Today the ground is frozen rock hard and the little guy didn't seem sore from it or his trim. I'm hoping we're making progress that I'm too close to notice. It's hard to evaluate when I see his feet all the time (for me). They're still obviously too long, but apparently the little guy feels some improvement.

...

His frog is definitely NOT the widest part of his hoof right now. His collateral grooves are so deep I'm afraid I'm not doing much good to help prevent or erradicate thrush (the reason I was hired to work with the guys last year). Before I can work on the thrush and contracted frog, I've got to get him sound and his feet less upright and tin-can-like. Exercise and a hoof short enough to allow the frog proper contact with the ground will alleviate the thrush and contracted frog. We've still got quite a while until we get there.

Here's the rasp I'm using - http://ridersrasp.com/ridersrasptrail.htm

It's incredibly useful and pretty easy to use - even for me with a weak left arm.

I've had some recent experience with thrush (though not with a mini)... pick the hooves DAILY if not more often. KEEP IT DRY. If quite bad (smelly), cut away the dead tissue, and a paste of sugar and Betadyne, some gauze, and a hoof boot can be quite effective (NOT strong iodine... that STINGS; my donkey just about concluded he would NEVER let me touch his feet again after my vet recommended strong iodine and I tried it). For my donkey, their non-horse hoof profile necessitated making a duct tape hoof boot with gauze preventing the tape from sticking to the hair etc. but that is another story. Mane-N-Tail makes some non irritating thrush treatment too if the hoof boot is not warranted or once things start improving. Seemed to help.

RE: Heel height - By 'widest part of the hoof' you might be misunderstanding the comment above (or maybe I am just misreading you)... the rear part of the hoof wall should be about even with the widest part of the frog, as poorly represented in this ASCII art, heel down and toe not shown:

\/\/

If the heel is quite tall, the frog ends up behind the heel. Harder to describe than show in pictures. Do NOT attempt to take the heel down to there in one or just a few trimmings if it is quite tall. It HURTS! Think of the last time you tried to jog for a mile in boots and how your shins felt. It's worse than that.

Anyway, one on one with a good farrier who likes to educate is worth a LOT more than web advice. Once you have the one on one, the web pix and articles make more sense.