Time to talk,,,trusting,,,,,buying, selling

[Frankie]

I am trying to work through it, this is my start.

edited for spelling

 

[onlyminis]

Wow, I could have written that post, add in family fueds, loss of my father, lawsuits and the sad realization that a lot of people that you THOUGHT were friends were portraying themselves as quite different than they are in real life. I crawled in a hole a long time ago to get away from it. Sad isn't it? On the internet anyone can be anyone they want and sadly I'm a trusting person.

I've slowly been working my way back out and have a few true mini friends that are restoring my faith in people, (they know who they are) but there's still a LONG way to go.

Hugs to ya, there REALLY are good people out there, we just need to learn to weed out the bad and learn to read them better.

I also have not done any selling, email answering or responding in a long time and know that many wonder if I just fell off the face of the earth. I'm hoping by spring to be back into the swing of things.

Hugs,

KJ

 

[chandab]

Carolyn,

I have no advice for you (I'm too new to minis and so far have had good luck). I just wanted let you know that I'm so sorry for the rough year and a half you've had. Sending you cyber hugs. {{{{hug}}}}

 

[Shari]

Frankie,, I so hear ya.

Am normally a pretty good judge of people.. however....

I help people out selling a horse... then they screw you over and re sell the horse 5 times the amount you sold it to them..

Then that lease that almost went south...will not lease to anyone in Canada ever again. (Not saying all folks are bad up there but legal wise...... it doesn't work out when that person basicly tried to steal my horse)

The horse I bought in Northern BC,, paid for Training, paid for the horse,, and for the whole bloomin trailer which was non refundable BTW...since no one goes that far north. And the lying cheats.. kept the horse and my money. Had no legal recourse.. did talk with a international Lawyer..but would of cost me more than $6,500 I had already lost. That hurt a lot.

Then me being a trusting fool.. that is how I ended up with Dyfra. Dumb..A*** I am.. knew better, I knew she wouldn't suit,, I knew Dyfra's mother,, but wanted to trust a friend. She kept saying she would be a great gimp horse! Well, guess what.. she is not and found out another well named Trainer told her the same thing.

She is learning,, but I don't think I will buy another horse from her. She is a good friend,, don't get me wrong..but she still has a way to go.

Even after all these years I keep trusting people..one would think I would learn.

There have been a few really nice folks too though. Lisa on this froum was very up front and honest,, the folks I bought Maggie from and BeeBop farms was honest about Ella.

Frankie.. I am now looking for just the right riding horse. I know what I need, I know what is possible with training and good breeding.. and I am finding very hard. Would say 60% of the people selling horses..either miss represent them or don't know anything about horses.

One just has to keep trying and if something doesn't feel right move on.

That is what I am doing. Once the right horse comes along.. you will know it.

 

[Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis]

aww thanks shari I do appreciate that. I am far from perfect ( I know hard to believe huh

) but I do my best to be fair and treat buyers the way I would want to be treated.

I am sorry you are having a rough time of it I to had many a bad deal in the beginning of my mini times. I somehow didnt go with what I knew and went under the lie "that oh minis are different" Most of them like you said in the long run where my own fault i wasnt really lied to I just didnt ask all the right questions

and do all the right homework and therefore didnt get what i wanted.

Thankfully though 98 percent of all my dealings both as buyer and seller have worked out wonderful both buying and selling on payments and getting and giving what was wanted. I am lucky to have made many friends thru my sales and purchases and met some wonderful people.

There are some bad and some that really pulled the wool over my eyes both on a professional and personal level but that is all part of life and I guess bottom line is I learned something about people and myself with all the good and the bad but I have to go with the belief that most people are good and most will do the right thing when given a chance and those that dont .. well word gets around pretty quick on them to

 

[yankee_minis]

I know what you mean, in a sense. Some dishonest sellers have made it difficult for future sellers I deal with. I'm asking for videos, pictures from specific angles, vet checks, outside critiques, references, and everything.

Okay, that may sound like normal things everybody should ask when buying a horse, but the truth is that not everybody does that.

Then after they've done all that and the horse isn't what I want, I feel *awful* saying, no thanks. I hate making them feel like they've wasted their time, but on the other hand, I have to be sure and cover all the bases so I'm not burned.

In the past I relied on what the seller said. "Good bite" to me means no underbite. But to the seller it meant something totally different, and darned if I know what that was!

I traded a horse to what I thought was a long-term home. Less than a month later this person is trading the horse to someone else. The only peace of mind I have with that situation is that the horse is going to a trusted forum member.

I laugh all the time with friends that horse people are crazy. Yup, we are. The trick to getting along is to find someone who is the same kind of crazy you are.

As for dishonesty...I just don't get it.

I'm sorry you are so disillusioned.

 

[stormy]

There are plenty of good people out there, I think you have been working with one all summer! I also have had a bunch of bad deals, esp. when I first started in minis...I do not deal with those people, I do with the ones I have had good experiances with and very much value their honesty and integrity. As for selling...get it in writing, everything! Who's responsible for vet costs, what if the horse dies before paid for, what if the animal is not pregnant, live foal or no and definition of live foal, stands and nurses, lives 24 hours, be specific. And no horse leaves until fully paid for unless you are familiar with the person and already have trust there.

Don't punish all of us who love the breed and do our best to help others enjoy ownership of these beautiful creatures, and for sure don't isolate yourself from the pleasure of sharing minis with others just because of the few bad eggs even if they were thrown all at once!

 

[journey]

Although I am still new to the board, alot of you don't know me. My hubby and I saw a Mini Appy Mare on the internet. We fell in love with her and I called the seller. She told me she only wanted $600 for her and that she was bred for May of '06. She also told me that this Appy was only 27 inches. We made an appointment to go see her and possibly bring her home with us. We drove 2 hours to go see this Appy. We got there and the seller wasn't home, so we waited over an hour to see if she would make it home. She finally got there and showed us this gangly looking mare, that was not an Appy, was not pregnant and looked nothing like the horse picture she posted on the net. This mare was malnutritioned and did not look well at all, although she was sweet, and I had thought about paying for her just to bring her home and get her healthy. I asked her if she was still $600 and she said no, jacked the price upto $1200... I told her she was crazy and that she needed to feed her horses. We left right away after that. We are still new to mini's and we have decided that we are not going to do that again. Why can't people just be honest?

 

[Frankie]

just because of the few bad eggs even if they were thrown all at once!

I will say there is a lot of truth to that. They did seem to ALL be thrown at once. Maybe that is why I have been so very taken back by it all.

 

[Frankie]

Is not really about what was done to me, just was adding a small explanation.

Where is the line? To trust.

Or let the paperwork be the trust, and they can either sign it or not?

Or, ok, you got screwed during a buy and sell, but you don't let it feed over to all in general when it comes to horses?

 

[Jill]

I really don't know the answer.

I've been lucky and I have only purchased from people that have proven themselves to be very honest and also truly concerned about the horses (so all the more likely to properly represent them).

As to buyers, this statement may not set well with a lot of people, and it could even be a regional thing, but from what I have seen / heard from friends in horses about people who basically screw them over (either as buyers, sellers, or in a training / boarding situation), I feel that there are just a lot of dishonest people in horses. I have heard a lot of non-horse people in my area say the term "horse people" in a negative way... like farmers who require cash to sell a "horse person" hay because they've been screwed w/ bounced checks so many times.

Really, just from a financial and a handle your business right point of view, I feel that there are a lot (substantial percentage) of people who have no business owning horses. And, I have read posts here really that make me think the same thing. I'm not talking about people who are not knowledgable. I mean people who cannot afford to pay rent but have a horse....

It's one thing not to be able to afford expensive treatments for a horse. Like, not everyone who owns a horse could afford colic surgery. I don't feel everyone who owns a horse has to have a $5,000 emergency vet fund to be a good home, and I can also relate to why a person might choose not to spend money on something like colic surgery.

What I mean is people who can't afford rent or car payments or other existing obligations that are truly necessities and then they go out and buy a horse.

I think there are quite a few horse people in that situation and that would make it stand to reason that sellers who sell on payments to these people are taking a risk.

Horses are a LUXURY! A huge luxury. They are not necessities. I think a lot of people who can't really afford to be in horses, are. And I understand how much a person can want a horse, trust me! It's just that with horses, you can spend $500 or you can spend $50,000. You could buy a $200 harness, or you could probably find a $2,000 harness. There is just so much you can choose to spend money on once you get into horses and a person can dig a hole for themselves.

I guess no one is going to stand up and say they would put paying a horse or paying a horse obligation (like board, training) at the last of their financial priority list, but if I've committed to something like that, I would nearly die before I'd dishonor it! It's never come to it luckily, but if I had to, I would give up almost anything before I'd do someone wrong in that way.

 

[shane]

carolyn,i know exactly how you feel.I have been used most of my life by so called friends,its very hurtful because you feel like giving sombody your all and your hoping for a great friend for life and you hope that they treat you like you are them but then they stab you in the back, i havent had friends for ten years ,i dont socialise, go out for a drink or into town with anyone only myself, but slowly im hoping to make a few friends through the miniature horse circle,ive met a great couple,a lovely lady who couldnt be more helpful and a lady here on the forum, so im hoping, if it doesnt work out ,at least ive tryed, im honest,trustworthy,and straight and i would make someone a great friend,if they return it......but id rather try than be friend less because its lonely..

i wish you all the best carolyn i realy do because there is good people out there

 

[mountain_waif]

....

 

[shortymisty]

Frankie,

You are not alone, I think if you are in any business there is always people out there that don't care what they do as long as they make that buck, they don't care about feelings, horses, dogs, cats, people, just that almighty buck and who they can con next. I agree, it is a rare ocassion that you meet a truly honest person, but they are out there, they are on this board, they are living in your neighborhood, and we all learn from pasts mistakes. Most of us have probably been "ripped off" by buying a horse, had one guy tell me he never used a tie down on his riding horse and lo and behold in the video there's a tie down. Traded a horse from horse traders in NC and got ripped off and then saw where this person even misrepresented the horse I trade to someone else, why people do these things, no one knows and it does take a while to recover.

Frankie, please know this, there are truly good people out there, the only thing is, you have to put your guard up on everyone to weed out the bad ones. Just because someone has a fancy barn and fencing doesn't make them an honest person. What's inside the person is what stands up to the test of time and is worthy of your friendship. Take some time for yourself, play with your horsies and check in with the forum gang for a few laughs, nothing serious and just start trusting one little bit at a time. Hugs from NC

Tracy

 

[EminentArabians]

I'm sorry you had a bunch of bad apples thrown your way. It is very hard to trust people, especially once you've been there and done that with the people who did do you wrong.

Although I have never had a bad dealing with buying horses (knock on wood), I have had two experiences where the buyers just up and quit paying for the horse. One was almost done with payments, we let the horse go to the buyers property, but i retained her papers until paid in full. I still have this horses papers...and was never fully payed for the mare. The other mare was a recue of mine (it seemed she had been abused before I bought her), we sold her to a person (and also let the mare go to their property as they were just down the road a ways), they stopped paying AND gave the mare away to someone else.

We let both mares stay where they were because they were in good homes...but it was definately a lesson learned on our part. These both happened right around the same time. I will never sell another horse and let them go to the buyer's property until paid in full now. Retaining papers, and a contract isn't always enough to get a buyer to pay up...

I also was going to free lease a horse of mine, who's references were all good, I am very glad that they backed out, as it would have been a very bad and sad situation if they'd hadn't, because I would have never known otherwise. For this very reason, I would have a very very difficult time leasing a horse to someone who wasn't within a few hours drive from me.

I go with my gut and my heart, if they both say that the person seems like a good honest person, I go for it (but I do check references, want to see pictures of their facility or go see it myself, etc). If my gut and heart tell me no, then I leave it alone and wont do business with those people. Have a lawyer draw up your contracts as best as they can.

Some people are willing to use your contracts when you buy horses, or breed to a stallion....so that is something you could atleast ask. Breeders are less likely to go for this, but people just selling their horses do on occassion let you use your contract if it's good.

 

[NMMack]

I guess no one is going to stand up and say they would put paying a horse or paying a horse obligation (like board, training) at the last of their financial priority list, but if I've committed to something like that, I would nearly die before I'd dishonor it!  It's never come to it luckily, but if I had to, I would give up almost anything before I'd do someone wrong in that way.

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I feel the same way Jill, I highly value my good name, and a promise made, is a promise kept! Period! On BOTH sides. If I give my word, I expect the same in return!

Also like you, I have had the pleasure of only dealing with very honest, down to earth people, and have had wonderful experiences to date! I don't know if it is just dumb luck, or the research I do before I buy, but I have been extremely fortunate.

For myself, if you don't give people the benefit of the doubt or your trust, you would miss out on so many wonderful opportunities, to meet new people and experience new things. And when something does go bad, I chalk it up to a lesson, well learned, and move forward.

There will *always* be someone out there that is not the same as you in morals or values, be aware, but don't be afraid to try either. I have learned to listen to my gut reactions, your instincts are usually right.

Nancy

 

[Frankie]

I am going to say here, that part of what is going on is our fault,,,in general.

2 of the cases I am talking about, it was not the first time this person had done this, or something very similar. I had been warned, somewhat after the fact, but too found out that these previous people did nothing. It seems to be too easy to let it go. If we do nothing, people like this, do and will continue, until they are made to stop.

I have read all of what you have written, and I am so sorry many of you too have been taken. You would be surprised at the number of lawyers who will do this, are very knowledgable and can help. With what I have gone through, I do have an attorney, and sure wish I had hired that person a long time ago. Made me very nervous, I have never had to have an attorney in my life. But still is the "right" thing. I don't think all of this has hardened me, but I can tell you that it will not happen again.

I may trust again, but will have all my ducks in a row, all my homework complete with an A+ at the top, and my lawyers number on speed dial.

 

[Crossbuck Farms]

I have been away from forum mainly because of my dad's health, but I don't share much these days with the forum because of certain people! Some people are down right nasty here. It makes afraid to even ask for help.

 

[HGFarm]

Oh Frankie, Frankie, Frankie...

I think most folks like to have faith in trust in others (treat them as you would want to be trusted) but there are a few bad apples out there....

I totally understand your feelings.... lost a bundle on a mare I purchased a couple of years ago... the money I lost could have purchased a producing mare. The 'compensation' I was offered to rebreed would have cost me about another $2000 on a mare that would not carry a foal, by the time shipping, etc... would have all been done. Then there was the one that was SO COVERED in lice when I got it, that I couldnt even unload it here til that was treated. She then impacted and I almost lost her due to the heavy heavy load of worms she was also packing.

Then I also sold my POA mare to someone I THOUGHT was trustworthy, over a year ago, and am still waiting for final payment. It has been a HUGE migraine, and such a hassle that yes, I have had to change some of my policies in regards to being a seller.

Have had a couple of other buyers put me through the wringer, which will make me certainly crack down and write a BOOK on what is and is not guaranteed, etc....

MOST of my purchases and sales have been good, so I just try to learn and 'make a note to self' on the bad ones and move on.

Please dont let the few bad apples ruin everything for you, as there are SO many good folks here.

And dont keep beating yourself up over it- you will just get an ulcer.

A friend here bought her first minis, and boy was she taken. When she hired and attorney and took it all to court, she lost. She was told that one of the horses had been to Nationals. Well it was. Wasn't shown there, but was there at the show in a stall - for sale.

The attorney called this 'puffery'. It is not out and out lying, but they say enough to give you an impression and idea - assuming something else. It gave her the impression that the horse was SHOWN at Nationals and was that caliber of an animal. Poor gal paid THOUSANDS of dollars for this horse and sold him for $800.00 and was out the attorney fees.

None of us will forget it. The breeder is still in business.

 

[Frankie]

That is about the same as my situation.

Put a deposit on a horse. Was told, " is an AMHR Show horse",

well, it was an AMHR registered horse that showed. And they claim to have said that.

I took it as it showed AMHR shows. Again, my fault. I did back out of the deal. The horse had only been in fun/local shows, for mostly big horses.

It did win in all 3 shows, but were no other horses in the class.

I felt when they said it was an AMHR Show Horse, they meant showed AMHR.

It is up to us to make sure we understand the statement.

Working on the not beating myself up,,,,,,,,but am not getting to far. I can't believe I have been so stupid, but I have.